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Old 1st April 2013, 20:03   #61
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Default Re: SOPs for Vintage and Classic Cars and Bikes

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Originally Posted by harit View Post
Dear Anjanji,

I am a bit confused here. What do you want to pass a resolution on?

There are too many issues, but you only talk about the export policy which in itself is quite clear.
Relatively few cars have gone out legally, export licence was given to a SS Jag to go to Australia, two Bentleys which went to UK, a Lanchester, maybe a few more. About bikes I have not kept track. Export was permitted in case of a person living abroad and taking a family heirloom with him, and the process was not easy. And perhaps only one car was allowed per family. The car whose whereabouts I wonder about is the Holkar Bentley, this was sold in India, was lying in an embassy in Delhi as I was told, and now there is no trace. If this car has gone abroad then there is some added mystery, it was no longer a family heirloom and it had been re-registered as many MP cars have been.

Attachment 1068054

What we want is some help for registration, relief for tax dues, green tax, import of spares and also why not cars in any condition. Since these subjects concern different authorities, maybe your friend can draft a few resolutions which can be presented to the concerned ministries. And then it is for clubs and associations to act.

It looks like we are to deal with the commerce and transport ministries, if we can get under the heritage and cultural ministry (I don't know the exact names of these ministries), maybe they will understand our issues and help push with the concerned ministries.

I am glad that you are making this effort, I am trying to be constructive with suggestions to help OUR cause.

Cheers harit
Hairtji, thanks for your efforts and inputs that may help many of us understand things from a broader perspective.
The Export Policy was posted by me here as the lawyer had clarified my wrong assumption that exports for all automobiles registered on or before 31/12/1959 are banned. He has amply proved the fact that the Policy legally opens the floodgates for exports of bikes made after 1939 and cars made after 1949 as per the extant laws.

As regards the Vintage and Classic Automobile Club discussions and resolutions,which you have asked for, the topic is wide open. We all have ourselves faced so many odds with our day to day endeavors to keep the beauties in ship shape.

Or else, how could big, green Dodge travel all the way to Pune/ Mahabaleshwar from Mumbai and back without any breakdowns?

So the moot point is there are many points that have been discussed here on this particular thread, regarding the day to day hassles and problems we face.
The Vintage and Classic Automobile Club resolutions could be based on these points with any logical additions and deletions.
Any new point that is worthwhile and meaningful in preserving the beauties will also be put forth in the final plaint to the appropriate authorities in the government, for necessary action at their end.

So I would again invite everyone interested to deliberate on this topic and offer suggestions.

Our aims are to:-

(1) Ban exports of all automobiles registered on or before 01/12/1969 as of now in the Export Import Policy. That covers the newer Indian Classics. The date remains flexible for amendment later on, upon time based needs.

(2) Depending upon the valuation of a V or C automobile, duty free imports of spares of a certain value ( %age of the valuation price) on an yearly basis, from the country of origin of that automobile or from a reputed or developed market abroad for sustainability of the automobile.This facility will be initially only proposed for registered V & C Club Members, irrespective of the number of automobiles they own.

(3) Pollution Under Control exemption for all V & C automobiles.

(4) Road Tax exemption for all V & C automobiles. The pending or accumulated road taxes on all V & C automobiles needs to be written off to make them roadworthy again.

(5) Simplifying fitness rules for the five year fitness tests by the RTA's for V & C automobiles. The fitness fees need to be waived off for all V & C automobiles.

(6) The old RC and TC books need to be preserved as heritage property and issue of smart cards by RTA's needs to be discontinued for all V & C automobiles.

(7) Allowing low duty imports of V & C automobiles from abroad by Club Members, with the sole bid to augment the V & C automobile population in India..There have to be checks and balances to prevent misuse, which we will have to discuss and finalise.

(8) The corpus of V & C Clubs must be Income Tax/ and Service Tax free.The burden for the issue of Tax exemption certificates must be on the Income tax and the Central Excise Departments respectively.

We welcome more suggestions and feedbacks.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 1st April 2013 at 20:09.
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Old 1st April 2013, 21:24   #62
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Default Re: SOPs for Vintage and Classic Cars and Bikes

How about getting back the old numbers that have been lost due to the unfriendly RTO law. This will benifit lot of V & C cars / bikes owners to get the original period numbers.
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Old 2nd April 2013, 13:08   #63
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Default Re: SOPs for Vintage and Classic Cars and Bikes

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Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
Hairtji, thanks for your efforts and inputs that may help many of us understand things from a broader perspective.
The Export Policy was posted by me here as the lawyer had clarified my wrong assumption that exports for all automobiles registered on or before 31/12/1959 are banned. He has amply proved the fact that the Policy legally opens the floodgates for exports of bikes made after 1939 and cars made after 1949 as per the extant laws.

As regards the Vintage and Classic Automobile Club discussions and resolutions,which you have asked for, the topic is wide open......
Hi Anjan,

I am not clear about one point. Is there a new import policy recently introduced? I believe that lots of 1940's to 50's bikes have already gone out along with scooters, in container loads, and there is not too much left to go. The stuff has become more expensive here, it may be cheaper to buy an old scooter abroad. And why do you want to ban export of cars upto 1969? What is available here at reasonable price that someone wants to take abroad? I am aware that a RHD Chevy from the 1960's went to UK. Only someone having certain sentiments may want to take such a car with him, it would not make any commercial sense. For example, most muscle cars in India are generally lower end vehicles, many 6 cylinder Mustangs, which are again cheaper abroad. There is no difficulty to lobby for a ban, but generally the Government does not like to ban too many things. All the Maharaja cars and cars in those levels are already banned.

Your wishes and aims are also a bit wishful, if we were to succeed every scrap "classic" would be revived to take undue advantage of benefits. Like public sector emplyees having those cars to avail of petrol money, thereby saving some "classics". For example, you propose
"Depending upon the valuation of a V or C automobile, duty free imports of spares of a certain value ( %age of the valuation price) on an yearly basis, from the country of origin of that automobile or from a reputed or developed market abroad for sustainability of the automobile. This facility will be initially only proposed for registered V & C Club Members, irrespective of the number of automobiles they own."
Who would value this car? If I had bought a Rolls in 1950 for 5K and now need parts, I will never like to have it valued in CR's to get some parts imported duty free. Why should the government allow duty free import of parts, and why should my car be valued and create new problems. First of all, it is the import of used parts which is banned, here we have to do something. If I need parts for my 1769 Cugnot steam tractor, I will not get new parts and cannot legally import. Also, you want to import parts from the country of origin of the car owned, but today you get good Mercedes and VW parts in USA, and many American car parts come from China or even India. Why link parts import to country of origin of the car? And then you say that this facility will be initially only proposed for registered V & C Club Members, well you may be aware that I have paid membership fees to VCCCI but now I don't know my status, maybe a dismissed member, non member or whatever.

This is an example, all points can be discussed, but we need to start in a logical order and focus. First clubs must be established, then we need an umbrella organisation. This will give some transparancy as clubs will have to declare their members when they pass resolutions or make representations. Once this is done, we need to focus on running a club, and the cars. We cannot have everything tax free, and will never get it. We can only ask for concessions, which we can get as the government can grant these. Our hobby is in a way elitist. So road tax, green tax, passing, insurance etc policies need to be framed. Then comes the import of parts, tyres, vehicles etc. Retaining old numbers is also nice, but not always practical as series have changed, (just look at KPS's book of his Plymouth), records are non existant, maybe age related series can be issued. And that can be left for later.
Ideas are good, issues need to be taken up, who will take the lead? I really hope that progress will be made in this direction. And once some achievements have been reached, the benefit should not be distributed discriminately.

See, we have a long way to go. I believe that certain individuals are already lobbying for the import of cars. VCCCI has already got a fascility for reduction of road tax, and now also for green tax according to their web site. But as they are selective in passing on the benefit, not much has been achieved for the community

Cheers harit

Last edited by harit : 2nd April 2013 at 13:14.
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Old 2nd April 2013, 22:08   #64
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Default Re: SOPs for Vintage and Classic Cars and Bikes

Haritji, thanks for your suggestions. We can further debate and the proposals can be filtered down to the most practical, logical and feasible ones.
As regards import duties, the government loses negligible amounts if duty free imports are allowed. Our motto is to encourage the vintage and classic automobile collectors and each person (however rich he may be) is going out on his or her own to do all the preservation work for posterity.
These automobiles have a societal value too, as when we exhibit our mechanical heritage, the viewer besides admiring the beauties, gains knowledge and is taken back in time with the machines built during the olden days.The accolades received are numerous as each one of us may have experienced first hand.
I have had visitors at a display, who were automobile engineering students, asking me about side valve and overhead valve engines, that they had only read about in text books and not seen.
As regards valuation, it is important as we cannot equate a Landmaster with a Rolls for duty free imports. The Rolls may need spares about ten times or more in value as compared to a Landmaster.
The suggestion of only Clubs being in the picture at the first instance has been mooted by the lawyer, who happens to be a vintage and classic collector. This is because he feels that there will be some credibility with registered clubs and its members in the fray. Or else, there is a chance of misuse of the proviso if its left pen to one and all.
As regards your club,it has a great past but there are no multiple membership bar or problems perhaps like dual citizenship. You are welcome to also join our CIVAA or even HVOCT near by.

Manish, preserving the registration numbers is a good suggestion, but I doubt whether we can successfully do it with retrospective effect. Prospective preservation of the numbers will be feasible and can be more easily done. Let us see how things work out.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 2nd April 2013 at 22:20.
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Old 3rd April 2013, 11:14   #65
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Default Re: SOPs for Vintage and Classic Cars and Bikes

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Haritji, thanks for your suggestions. We can further debate .............
Hi Anjan,

My purpose here is not to debate, but to focus a bit on what is required to be done to achieve our aims faster. As I said before, I am trying to be constructive. Like this, you say that Government will loose a pittance in revenue but showcasing out mechanical heritage is so important. True, but one look at the National Railway Museum will be enough to convince you that the government does not care. It should be a national policy that all, establishments, individuals should take an inventry of mechanical and other heritage items. Then offer it to gevernment museums for atleast the scrap value, and if they don't want, have an open auction for collectors. But no, they even steal the brass of heritage stem engines like the famous case recently exposed. So forget about the government giving any importance to heritage for the moment.

I still suggest, form the clubs, collect the resolutions, and work with some ministries at state and center levels. that way we could atleast move ahead. Maybe you can suggest a draft of the resolutions. Since this is an open forum, I don't know how comfortable clubs and associations are when resolutions are debated so openly, I suggest that you and the lawyer buddy take a decisiona and try to work with clubs. I presume the club in our region will not be so transparent

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Haritji, ...................... As regards your club,it has a great past but there are no multiple membership bar or problems perhaps like dual citizenship. You are welcome to also join our CIVAA or even HVOCT near by..............
Now thats a good idea, at last some participation will be possible from my side

Cheers harit
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Old 3rd April 2013, 20:32   #66
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Hi Anjan,

My purpose here is not to debate, but to focus a bit on what is required to be done to achieve our aims faster. As I said before, I am trying to be constructive. Like this, you say that Government will loose a pittance in revenue but showcasing out mechanical heritage is so important. True, but one look at the National Railway Museum will be enough to convince you that the government does not care. It should be a national policy that all, establishments, individuals should take an inventry of mechanical and other heritage items. Then offer it to gevernment museums for atleast the scrap value, and if they don't want, have an open auction for collectors. But no, they even steal the brass of heritage stem engines like the famous case recently exposed. So forget about the government giving any importance to heritage for the moment.

I still suggest, form the clubs, collect the resolutions, and work with some ministries at state and center levels. that way we could atleast move ahead. Maybe you can suggest a draft of the resolutions. Since this is an open forum, I don't know how comfortable clubs and associations are when resolutions are debated so openly, I suggest that you and the lawyer buddy take a decisiona and try to work with clubs. I presume the club in our region will not be so transparent



Now thats a good idea, at last some participation will be possible from my side

Cheers harit
Haritji, that's all well taken. Yes indeed, we need vision, motivation and commitment from our sides as individuals and as clubs to take all logical steps to preserve the beauties.
I will also put forth a draft resolution for the benefit of us all - I will request the lawyer friend to draft as he is in deep into vintages and also the law so he will do this job the best.
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Old 3rd April 2013, 23:22   #67
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The car whose whereabouts I wonder about is the Holkar Bentley, this was sold in India, was lying in an embassy in Delhi as I was told, and now there is no trace. If this car has gone abroad then there is some added mystery, it was no longer a family heirloom
Pity this gorgeous car may have gone out. I heard its in some Middle Eastern country now, Qatar perhaps.
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Old 4th April 2013, 16:26   #68
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Pity this gorgeous car may have gone out. I heard its in some Middle Eastern country now, Qatar perhaps.
Is it with this guy?

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Maharaja Yeshwant Rao Holkar II 'reborn' as Sheikh
Sunday, Jun 26, 2011, 8:00 IST | Place: DNA | Agency: DNA


Sheikh Saoud bin al-Thani has been raiding art auctions and antiques shops to scoop up everything linked to his 'previous birth' as the late ruler of Indore

Was the late Maharaja Yeshwant Rao Holkar II (YRH) reborn five years after his death in 1961? The world may laugh at the reincarnation theory, but for an Arab Sheikh, it’s a million dollar truth.

Sheikh Saoud bin al-Thani, cousin of the ruling emir of Qatar and once the world’s biggest buyer of art, fancies himself an avatar of the late ruler of Indore. The billionaire Sheikh got bitten by the Holkar bug when he saw YRH’s portrait by American artist Man Ray. Al-Thani, who was born almost five years after Holkar’s death in 1961, bears a striking resemblance to the late ruler. Both have the same oblong face, broad forehead, sharp, equine nose and a pencil moustache.

The Qatari prince is now raiding international art auctions and antiques shops to scoop up almost everything linked to his ‘previous birth’, spending millions on his pursuit. The Sheikh visited Indore some years ago to collect everything related to the Holkars. “A few years ago, several antique dealers tried to get in touch with me to solicit my help in procuring antiques and articles that had anything to do with YRH. It was then that I came to know that they were buying on behalf of the Sheikh, who fancied himself to be the reincarnation of the former ruler,” Upendra Bapna, great grandson of former prime minister of Indore, Siremal Bapna, told DNA.

“Al-Thani has spent millions of dollars on antiques related to the Holkars: vintage photography, rare jewels, cars, textiles, Art Deco furniture — building up an entire YRH collection,” says Indore-based historian and art dealer Rajendra Singh. The Sheikh is reputed to have limitless funds and attacks art auctions with his ‘anything it takes’ motto. Sometimes he buys out entire collections on display, paying several times more than the estimated price of items that go under the hammer.

His latest shopping spree was this March at Christie’s Paris auction where he devoured objects that German designer Eckart Muthesius had created for YRH. The Sheikh spent almost $1.5 million on a bookshelf and pair of wall-mounted lamps crafted for the Indore royals.

Al-Thani’s fascination for Holkar doesn’t end with auctions. He gets himself photographed in various poses reminiscent of the former royal, sometimes paying thousands of dollars for a single session. His Al Wahab estate in Doha is also modeled on Manikbagh, YRH’s official residence.

In 2005, al-Thani was placed under house arrest, but later released, for allegedly inflating the cost of the antiques he had bought for his country’s museums as culture minister. Prior to his arrest, he had spent a whopping $1.5billion during an eight-year buying spree.
Source : http://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/15...born-as-sheikh
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Old 4th April 2013, 17:21   #69
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Is it with this guy?
I too had read about this guy sometime ago. Quite possible given his obsession with Yeshwantrao
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Old 9th April 2013, 10:43   #70
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Default Re: SOPs for Vintage and Classic Cars and Bikes

I recently recieved an email from the VCCCI announcing the following

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Dear Friends,
All Vintage Cars manufactured before 1940 have to pay a concessional Green Tax of Rs.500/- for 5 years instead of Rs.3500/- and Classic Cars manufactured from 1941 to 1949 have to pay Rs.1000/- for 5 years instead of Rs.3500/-.

Please apply immediately to us for getting your Tax paid otherwise it will attract penalty.

We are also glad to inform you that you can now get discount of up to 75% in OD Insurance premium in insuring Vintage & Classic cars.

We are organizing a vintage and classic car and motorcycle exhibition at the race course from Thursday 18th April, 2013 to Sunday 21st April, 2013.
Only 60 vehicles will be displayed. If you wish to display your vehicle,
Please contact us with details before Wednesday, 10th April, 2013.
This is certainly a step in the right direction, and a long time coming. I believe it is the first instance of a vintage car club to be able to secure such a facility.

Unfortunately though only cars upto 1949 are covered. I believe that the owners of later cars, say up to the 1970s, or over 40 years old, should also be entitled to such benefits. I would think it is they who need it the most - most owners of prewar cars are usually in a much better position to afford a green tax than an owner of say a Beetle or Morris Minor. A generic statement, so to be taken such.
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Old 9th April 2013, 12:27   #71
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Default Re: SOPs for Vintage and Classic Cars and Bikes

please note that the Green tax is a good thing organised by the VCCCI and I am sure many will benefit. Might be post 49 have no issues in applying directly to RTO and will be issued on proper papers and insurance and can someone clarify if its true.

Such a facility for an exhibition can be secured with the help of cash and might. Its an exhibition for the "Chief Minister Relief Fund" ( he is fine & the state no Chapter 11 Situation there ) for the Drought ridden farmers which is a big issue in Maharashtra and some places in India. Here comes both cash and might !

Will visit to see the display.

Cheers



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I recently recieved an email from the VCCCI announcing the following



This is certainly a step in the right direction, and a long time coming. I believe it is the first instance of a vintage car club to be able to secure such a facility.

Unfortunately though only cars upto 1949 are covered. I believe that the owners of later cars, say up to the 1970s, or over 40 years old, should also be entitled to such benefits. I would think it is they who need it the most - most owners of prewar cars are usually in a much better position to afford a green tax than an owner of say a Beetle or Morris Minor. A generic statement, so to be taken such.
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Old 8th September 2014, 07:11   #72
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Default VCCI Road tax outside of MH

Does VCCI offer any similar RTO feature outside of MH? Having some issues in WB

Refer below:
http://www.vccci.com/updates/view/lifetime-tax
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Old 8th September 2014, 08:16   #73
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Does VCCI offer any similar RTO feature outside of MH? Having some issues in WB

Refer below:
http://www.vccci.com/updates/view/lifetime-tax

Road Tax is a State subject.

For example in Karnataka, Karnataka Vintage & Classic Car Club had championed this cause, which resulted in the Karnataka Government agreeing and passed the Karnataka Act No.10 of 1991 w.e.f 01.04.1991, Part AAAA Schedule, under the M V Act 1988.
  1. Vintage Car manufactured during the year 1939 and earlier and duly registered with Karnataka Vintage and Classic Car Club in addition to the registration to the Vehicle under the MV Act 1988 - Rs. 500 Life Tax
  2. Classic Car manufactured during the period between the year 1940 and 1949 and duly registered with Karnataka Vintage and Classic Car Club in addition to the registration to the Vehicle under the MV Act 1988 - Rs. 1000 Life Tax.
This was further amended by Karnataka Act No.12 of 1993 w.e.f 01.04.1993, Part AAAA Schedule
  1. Vintage Car manufactured during the year 1939 and earlier and duly registered under the MV Act 1988 - Rs. 500 Life Tax
  2. Classic Car manufactured during the period between the year 1940 and 1949 and duly registered under the MV Act 1988 - Rs. 1000 Life Tax.
The amended in 1993 was made to remove the name of KVCCC , so as to make it rightly open to the larger public. There was agreement that this was the right move by the government.


Cheers


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Old 8th September 2014, 10:05   #74
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Road Tax is a State subject.

For example in Karnataka, Karnataka Vintage & Classic Car Club had championed this cause, which resulted in the Karnataka Government agreeing and passed the Karnataka Act No.10 of 1991 w.e.f 01.04.1991, Part AAAA Schedule, under the M V Act 1988.
My complements to you and the team for efforts taken.

However is 1950 truly an effective cut-off? I believe that rather than a fixed date, a fixed number of years should be specified, so that as cars get older, they can automatically take benefit of the scheme. We can all agree that cars from the 50s and 60s are equally deserving of the sops.
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Old 8th September 2014, 10:58   #75
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Default Re: SOPs for Vintage and Classic Cars and Bikes

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My complements to you and the team for efforts taken.
However is 1950 truly an effective cut-off? I believe that rather than a fixed date, a fixed number of years should be specified, so that as cars get older, they can automatically take benefit of the scheme. We can all agree that cars from the 50s and 60s are equally deserving of the sops.
I think this was done when Dad was the President ( I was not a member), but the credit should go fully to the then Transport Commissioner, who was very dynamic. At that point, they went by what was believed to be agreed definition years for a Vintage & Classic car. Post that, the definitions have evolved and now the age of the car is considered a better option than the cut off date. Hopefully KVCCC will take up this matter going forward. We have discussed this a few times in our EC, but need to work on the same.

Cheers

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