Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > Vintage Cars & Classics in India


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 19th May 2009, 04:07   #301
BHPian
 
Star man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brisbane Qld.Australia
Posts: 107
Thanked: 18 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
The Earlier straight six W126s came with a carb.
The carb had dual butterflys, the second opening after reaching certain rpm. You could actually feel the leap and increase in power.

The W114s and W115s all came with a carburetted engine only.

Naren, there are no pics of the W126 in your link ??!!
Sorry guys you are all wrong .
Before the irst W126 was introduced in 1979 ,Bosch hadn't supplied an electronic injection since 1976.
It's called a D jetronic. It used a primitive switch box which is often erroniously called a computor but it doesn't compute anything.
From that point ALL injected Mercedes used MECHANICAL injection called a KJetronic. Apart from the KE Jetronic used in the united states these have No electronics at all. The last Kjetronics have an electric idle control. All previous ones used a temperature controlled idle control .The hotter the engine, the slower the idle. Commonly known as CIS ,the Kjet is a constant flow injection which is controlled by central fuel distributor. As you open the throttle there is a airflap which connected to a spindle valve. The wider the throttle opening,the more fuel is squirted in to each port.
Very simple and easy to maintain.
Now 114 's WERE available with injection (Djet) And It was only the USA which didn't get them and this cuases a lot of arguments on Websites as Americans think the world revolves around ther United States and if they didn't get them ,know else was supposed too
The W114 280Eis a 130Mph car which is very desirable amongst collectors.I have owned several over the years.
The one in the Picture here is a 1972 280CE.an M110 Engine with Djet . 40,000 miles from new it is a concours winning car which has had $80,000 AUD spent on it's restoration. In the picture you can see the intake manifold,to the right is the manifold pressure sensor which is used to determine the air flow and adjust fuel volume .On todays injection set ups this is controlled via vacuum sensor which signals an ECU .The Square box is the Switch unit for the ignition.In the distributor for these there points and under the points is another set of points which trigger two sets of injectors ( 3 each in this case) .Again on modern systems this is all controlled by ECU's.
Now I have heard rumours of carb equipped W126's but I doubt very much if such a car was built by Mercedes. W123's have many different Carb equiped versions in the 230's but I know that all the W123 280's were all injected (Kjet) .
Attached Images
 
Star man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2009, 10:10   #302
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,927
Thanked: 331 Times
Default

Now what I was talking about was that cars with E after the S were fuel injected. Should have said "fuel injected" only not "electronic fuel injection" as I actually did.

I stand corrected

The W126(W126.021 the correct chassis code) 280S cars made from 79 to 85 came with the M110.924 engine which featured twin Solex and in some cases Pierberg carbs. The M110.924 engine was the carburetted versions of this twin cam straight six design.Around 47,000 such cars were built.

The W126.022 of the same period which were the 280SE and the 280SEL came with the M110.987 engines with the Bosch K-Jetronic Mechanical Fuel Injection.

Techincally the long wheelbase SEL cars were clasified as V126 by the factory, a relatively unknown fact.

The other models in the W126 range included the 300SD/SDL and the 350 SD/ SDL and the 380, 420,500 and 560 SE / SEL cars.

The W126 range also comprised of the 380 / 420 / 500 / 560 SEC coupes.

Total W126 sedan production from 79 to 91 was 818,105 cars and 74,060 coupes.
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2009, 15:20   #303
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Kochi
Posts: 86
Thanked: 20 Times
Default 126/280s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star man View Post
Sorry guys you are all wrong .
Before the irst W126 was introduced in 1979 ,Bosch hadn't supplied an electronic injection since 1976.
It's called a D jetronic. It used a primitive switch box which is often erroniously called a computor but it doesn't compute anything.
From that point ALL injected Mercedes used MECHANICAL injection called a KJetronic. Apart from the KE Jetronic used in the united states these have No electronics at all. The last Kjetronics have an electric idle control. All previous ones used a temperature controlled idle control .The hotter the engine, the slower the idle. Commonly known as CIS ,the Kjet is a constant flow injection which is controlled by central fuel distributor. As you open the throttle there is a airflap which connected to a spindle valve. The wider the throttle opening,the more fuel is squirted in to each port.
Very simple and easy to maintain.
Now 114 's WERE available with injection (Djet) And It was only the USA which didn't get them and this cuases a lot of arguments on Websites as Americans think the world revolves around ther United States and if they didn't get them ,know else was supposed too
The W114 280Eis a 130Mph car which is very desirable amongst collectors.I have owned several over the years.
The one in the Picture here is a 1972 280CE.an M110 Engine with Djet . 40,000 miles from new it is a concours winning car which has had $80,000 AUD spent on it's restoration. In the picture you can see the intake manifold,to the right is the manifold pressure sensor which is used to determine the air flow and adjust fuel volume .On todays injection set ups this is controlled via vacuum sensor which signals an ECU .The Square box is the Switch unit for the ignition.In the distributor for these there points and under the points is another set of points which trigger two sets of injectors ( 3 each in this case) .Again on modern systems this is all controlled by ECU's.
Now I have heard rumours of carb equipped W126's but I doubt very much if such a car was built by Mercedes. W123's have many different Carb equiped versions in the 230's but I know that all the W123 280's were all injected (Kjet) .
126/280 S were equpped with the M110 carburetted engines,until the launch of the 126/300SE/SEL with the single camshaft M103 engines.The M110 engines were fitted with a single carb ususally a Stromberg or Solex 4A1.These carbs were also used by Mercedes in the 123/250 6cyl models.
Two things that the Indian motoring public was terrified of till recently were fuel injected petrol engines and automatic transmissions.This was due to the lack of servicing facilities except in the metros and difficulty in sourcing spares.There were so many cars that were badly fiddled and abandoned, in fact most mechanics never made an attempt to understand these systems or should I say technology.Quite a few fuel injected engines were altered and converted to carburetted, I wonder how they performed after the conversion.
Cheers,
SG
sunilgee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2009, 17:12   #304
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Abu Dhabi and Karachi
Posts: 124
Thanked: 16 Times
Default

Wasif and Sunilgee, great detailed answers that only confirm the fact that the W 126 was built in carb form.
As far as I can remember they were single carbs but with a vacumm operated second stage or choke. The last twin carb with twin stage MB was probably the 1976 230.6 which used the Zenith/INAT carbs.

Starman, I do not think the 280 E (W 114) was a 130 MPH car, if my memory is right Autocar managed a 124 MPH top speed for this particular model in their road test.
The first MB ( minus the 6.3 ) to top 130 MPH in the saloon car range was probably the ( W 116 ) 450 SE in 1973, which managed 134 MPH in its road test.
Alvis is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2009, 17:56   #305
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,927
Thanked: 331 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvis View Post
Wasif and Sunilgee, great detailed answers that only confirm the fact that the W 126 was built in carb form.
As far as I can remember they were single carbs but with a vacumm operated second stage or choke. The last twin carb with twin stage MB was probably the 1976 230.6 which used the Zenith/INAT carbs.

Starman, I do not think the 280 E (W 114) was a 130 MPH car, if my memory is right Autocar managed a 124 MPH top speed for this particular model in their road test.
The first MB ( minus the 6.3 ) to top 130 MPH in the saloon car range was probably the ( W 116 ) 450 SE in 1973, which managed 134 MPH in its road test.
There was a dark brown 280S with a friend in Hyderabad which had twin single choke carbs on it (Stromberg ) that I remember, maybe it was an aftermarket setup. I believer they actually came with a single twin choke Solex or Stromberg.
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2009, 21:58   #306
Senior - BHPian
 
V-16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: mumbai
Posts: 4,566
Thanked: 819 Times
Default

A lot have been said about the various engines at all. I only said that W114 and W115s came only in carburetted form. I should have specified that i did not mean to include the "e" versions which merely meant fuel injection. W114 ad the W123 280e, 230e etc were all FI versions.

Then there were the W108s and their versions came with FI. The W108 280se, sel and the W109 300Se, sel.

Regards the W126s not being made in carburetted form, you are wrong. Wasif has mentioned the details which are correct.

Kindly check this link from which i have taken an excerpt below.

Mercedes-Benz W126 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

W126 (1979-1985)

Chassis code Years Model Engine Market
W126.021 1981-1985 280 S M110.924 2.8L straight-6 carburetor World excluding US
W126.022 1981-1985 280 SE M110.987 2.8L straight-6 World excluding US
W126.023 1981-1985 280 SEL M110.987 2.8L straight-6 World excluding US
W126.12 1981-1985 300 SD OM617.951 3.0L straight-5 diesel USA and Canada only
W126.032 1984-1985 380 SE M116.963 3.8L V8
W126.033 1981-1983 380 SEL M116.963 3.8L V8
W126.043 1982-1983 380 SEC M116.963 3.8L V8
W126.036 1984-1985 500 SE M117.963 5.0L V8 World excluding US & Australia
W126.037 1984-1985 500 SEL M117.963 5.0L V8 for US and Canada '84 and '85
W126.044 1984-1985 500 SEC M117.963 5.0L V8 for US and Canada '84 and '85


How can we forget one of the first Mechanical injections used in the 300SL in the early 50s and the lovely Pagoda SLs


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvis View Post
As far as I can remember they were single carbs but with a vacumm operated second stage or choke. The last twin carb with twin stage MB was probably the 1976 230.6 which used the Zenith/INAT carbs.
I agree with you Alvis. I have yet to see a twin solex or any twin on a W126. The second Butterfly as i mentioned opened up on a certain rpm.

Last edited by V-16 : 19th May 2009 at 22:04. Reason: adding content
V-16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2009, 12:51   #307
Senior - BHPian
 
canonball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,463
Thanked: 181 Times
Default

There is sky blue 1989/90 (updated cladding/trim) base level model (manual window winders etc) 280S W126 parked outside a shareborkers retail outlet next to Vijay Sales in Santacruz. She is a mannual transmission and has a Solex 4A carb. She was converted to CNG some years ago with RTO passing/stamp!! Drove her, she is also flood damaged. Short of the long they were Solex 4A1 (4 chock) Carb

Last edited by canonball : 20th May 2009 at 12:55.
canonball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2009, 04:41   #308
Distinguished - BHPian
 
harit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,898
Thanked: 2,436 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star man View Post
Sorry guys you are all wrong .
Before the first W126 was introduced in 1979 ,Bosch hadn't supplied an electronic injection since 1976.
It's called a D jetronic. It used a primitive switch box which is often erroniously called a computor but it doesn't compute anything.

Now 114 's WERE available with injection (Djet) And It was only the USA which didn't get them and this cuases a lot of arguments on Websites as

The W114 280Eis a 130Mph car which is very desirable amongst collectors.I have owned several over the years.
Now I have heard rumours of carb equipped W126's but I doubt very much if such a car was built by Mercedes. W123's have many different Carb equiped versions in the 230's but I know that all the W123 280's were all injected (Kjet) .
Also sorry, Sir, perhaps you have a typo error. Just check your 1st para.
Many went and checked manuals, Wikipedia and gave info.

By coincidence, I just got a German mag 'Oldtimer Praxis' June 2009 issue, and lo behold there is an article on the Bosch D-Jetronic.
This was introduced in 1967 in a VW type 3, probably the sedan edition of the Variant. This system was current only for 8 years, then K-Jetronic was introduced. So this system is more than 30 years old.
I have a 114 coupe, originally with injection but converted to carbs by changing the manifold. It is running very well, I am not sure if I will revert.

There was a post about the nomenclture too.
Merc 'S' class does not stand for 'Sonderklasse'. Sonderklasse was a 2 stroke DKW of the early sixties. In fact I read an article by an authority where it says that the origin of 'S' class is not known, and is being speculated on. Perhaps someone has more info.

Sure, the E in the monogram is for Injection, in German it is 'Einschpritz', hence the E. Not to be confused with the E class. If someone can recall Pranlal's convertible 300 of the fifties, there is a monogram on the rear saying 'Einschpritz'. But that was a mechanical system.

Cheers, harit
harit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2009, 09:50   #309
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,927
Thanked: 331 Times
Default

Hi Harit.

Please refer to the below link regarding the Mercedes S Class. It is derived for the German word "Sonderklasse" which actually means " a class of its own" which was shortened to "S Class"

Mercedes-Benz S-Class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2009, 13:55   #310
BHPian
 
Star man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brisbane Qld.Australia
Posts: 107
Thanked: 18 Times
Default

As I said,the W126 Carbureted car is a very unusual car of which I had heard rumours of but never seen.
At a production of 47,000 out of a total of 800,000+ it represents a tiny percentage over the 10 years of production which is why I have only ever seen one.
It is a pity the Indian mechanics didn't take the time to investigate fuel injection in the early days because it's far simpler to diagnose and repair than carburetors especially the Kjet which is very basic in it's concept and operation.
It would appear that most carbureted cars were sold in Areas where it was deemed more important to sell cars that could be serviced using local resources but those who have struggled with dreaded Solex 4 A1 would question the logic of using them.

I have worked on both W126 260 SE and W126 300SE[L] with the m103 engine but all were fuel injected and are fairly common cars.
Rather than rely on the dubious accuracy of wikipedia I tend to rely on my 30+ years of experience of working on Mercedes Cars and the many contacts I have in the mercedes world across the globe.

Harit,W126's were introduced long after mercedes Stopped using the Djet system. They used it on the m116 V8's in the W107,W280SE 3.5 (280SE six use a bosch MFI )W116 280SE six and 350 V8 and 450 V8 .
The W116 450SEL 6.9 uses a kjet.
As I said,the Djet is a primitive system,more like stone axe and rocks compared with todays systems. Introduced in 1967 it was discontinued in 1974.
The Kjet CIS was introduced in 1976.


Several european manufacturers used Djet in the late 1960's to 1970s and as you say, VW used it first. Dr Guenter Buamann having designed it for Bosch initially for the Vw 1600 engine.
Star man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2009, 01:47   #311
Distinguished - BHPian
 
harit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,898
Thanked: 2,436 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
Hi Harit.

Please refer to the below link regarding the Mercedes S Class. It is derived for the German word "Sonderklasse" which actually means " a class of its own" which was shortened to "S Class"

Mercedes-Benz S-Class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hi Wasif,

I do not intend to start an arguement, but please remember that Wikipedia is not the bible, in short it should be used for reference only. You know how it works, almost anyone can contribute and huge blunders have been made relying on Wikipedia. A prankster just has to insert a birthdate, and a celebrity can be surprised.
I am sure that the S class origin is not clear, but having read so much cannot pull it out. That is why I have asked for others to contribute on this subject. But please do check DKW, you will find Sonderklasse!
harit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2009, 01:55   #312
Senior - BHPian
 
V-16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: mumbai
Posts: 4,566
Thanked: 819 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star man View Post
As I said,the W126 Carbureted car is a very unusual car of which I had heard rumours of but never seen.

It would appear that most carbureted cars were sold in Areas where it was deemed more important to sell cars that could be serviced using local resources.
Well Star Man, rest assured, there were W126 carburetted engines. You might have not come across them but they do exist. As you said, a good reason would be the non familiarity of the FE system. Just like many Indians shunned the auto transmission cars (a lot still do for the same reason).

The W126 initially had a broad spectrum of engines. There were 7 models with 4 engines ranging from the 280S (6 cyl, carburetted, 156 bhp) to the 500SEL (V-8, injection 240 bhp) The only carburetted engine offered on the W126, was the 280.


Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
Also sorry, Sir, perhaps you have a typo error. Just check your 1st para.

There was a post about the nomenclture too.
Merc 'S' class does not stand for 'Sonderklasse'.

In fact I read an article by an authority where it says that the origin of 'S' class is not known, and is being speculated on. Perhaps someone has more info.
Actually "Sonderklasse" makes sense. I would go with that. The suffix "S'' was added to Mercedes cars with special fittings. Earlier they were available as only S convertibles or coupes, giving rise to the speculation of S=Sports. Maybe at that time it was true. Then when the four door versions started carrying the suffix "S" it was probably meant as a "Special Class"

Yes there was a three cyl DKW also called the Sonderklasse. Maybe they had booked the title (if it was possible in those times) and maybe thats why Mercedes chose to use the short form instead of the entire word.

Many authorities have different translations of the "S" in S class.

I remember reading that the S, SE, SEL versions were meant to describe,
Saloon, Saloon Einspritz, and Saloon Einspritz Lang. It does seem funny why anyone would nominate "S'' in the English language and the "E" and the "EL" in German. Then maybe this was the start of the "S" in s class??!! Who knows!!


The S versions were carbureted, the SE versions fuel injected, and SEL versions fuel injected with longer wheelbases

Last edited by V-16 : 26th May 2009 at 01:57. Reason: add
V-16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2009, 02:14   #313
Senior - BHPian
 
V-16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: mumbai
Posts: 4,566
Thanked: 819 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
Here is a classic example of a wonderful 1972 W-108 250SE, gathering dust. Now in a state of disrepair but awaiting resurrection soon...i hope.. Dont see many of these around.

Attachment 88636
I have been trying hard to convince the owner of this car to allow being resurrected. I may have broken a little ice here (touch wood)

HE called me out of no where and said he was thinking of restoring her. Good Good!!

In a few days we will know, as he has promised to get back to me. And i will get back to you.!!
V-16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2009, 10:27   #314
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,927
Thanked: 331 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by V-16 View Post



Actually "Sonderklasse" makes sense. I would go with that. The suffix "S'' was added to Mercedes cars with special fittings. Earlier they were available as only S convertibles or coupes, giving rise to the speculation of S=Sports. Maybe at that time it was true. Then when the four door versions started carrying the suffix "S" it was probably meant as a "Special Class"
The S usffix actually appeared on the 1955 W180 / W128 220S & 220SE "Ponton" four door cars.
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2009, 12:19   #315
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Abu Dhabi and Karachi
Posts: 124
Thanked: 16 Times
Default

All,

Probably the first Merc to carry the "S" tag was the 300 S from 1951 to 1962. Series W 186/188/189 in all its different versions. The Coupe was 300 SC, and even when the engine was fuel injected in the last versions it did not have the "E" tag.
I think S meant Special in this series of saloons as opposed to a slightly lower base model.

The W 128 series 220 and 220 S are very clear in the difference of trim levels, both external and internal, so I would assume they had Special in mind for the customers willing to pay a bit more. Also the W 128 was the first to use the "E" tag as in 220 SE

Also note that the W 198 300 SL never had the E tag though it was the first Merc to use fuel injection, right upto the end of its life as a Roadster.


Starman

The W116 450 series started life off with a D Jetronic but were shifted to K jetronic in 1976. I have owned a 1974 D Jet powered 450 SE and the weakest point being hot weather start. The K Jet cars with the same engine and specs were much more better.
Most of us do use Wiki as a reference but the comments come from over 30 + years of a passion for Mercedes and the privilege and honour of owning and living with these great cars.

Last edited by Alvis : 26th May 2009 at 12:22.
Alvis is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pics: Vintage & Classic cars in India X-Machine Vintage Cars & Classics in India 2655 4th December 2016 01:03
Unidentified Vintage and Classic cars in India Julian UK Vintage Cars & Classics in India 617 19th September 2016 18:25
Procedures to move Vintage/ Classic cars between states in India bluestraveller Vintage Cars & Classics in India 33 7th April 2015 14:17
A tribute to a Vintage Man : similar to a vintage car or vintage wine StarVegabond Shifting gears 3 12th October 2009 14:49


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 13:54.

Copyright 2000 - 2016, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks