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Old 14th March 2012, 10:20   #1216
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Default Re: Vintage and Classic Car Definition: India

In Mercedes models "S" denoted the higher end luxury models....they were all 4 door models. The "SC" cars were the two door coupes / convertibles.

Then when the fuel injected models came it they were "SE" and the long wheelbase cars were the "SEL"

The sports cars were the "SL" and later the "SLK"

There were a few S class Diesel variants too they were the "SD" versions
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Old 14th March 2012, 11:03   #1217
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Thats why a 1956 Mercedes 300SL is more of a classic (and certainly more desirable) than say a 300S (Saloon) of the same year.
Just my two bits, please correct me if im wrong.
All four models of the 300, came with four door convertibles which were produced in very small numbers and were insanely expensive, also very collectible. When i say saloon, i mean the four door version. Maybe i should have specified not sedan.

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V16, a small correction from my side. The 300"S" was never a saloon. They were always 2 door coupes or cabriolets and the last of them were fuel injected. And they are full classics. Yes, not in the league of a 300SL, but a true classic nonetheless. Coupes are selling in auctions at $200,000+, cabriolets even higher.

The saloons were the non "S" 300's, popularly referred to as the Adenauer Mercs. They were always 4 door, but convertibles were made in small nos. and very few landaulets for heads of state, the Pope etc. The last on the 300 saloon series was the 300D, which was facelifted, but the D didn't refer to diesel as is common in Mercs, but just so named as the last of the series.

What always fascinates me is that the 300SL engine is essentially the 3 litre engine found on the 300 saloons but obviously much modified and fuel injected.

The Jasdanwalla family seems to have a combo of saloons and convertibles.

Best Regards
mbz180
Yes i agree. The S was used as a nomenclature for their two door coupes but a car had been unearthed in Netherlands and one in Uganda if im not mistaken (Idi Amin's?) which bore the 300S nomenclature and was four door. I dont know if these were special orders but yes and no, the 300S meant a coupe/four door convertible. Though there is not much available on the net about these cars. I have some literature re them which i will fish out and post ...if i can find it

The D was the long (Lange)wheel base version ordered by the Pope.
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Old 14th March 2012, 14:58   #1218
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Default Re: Vintage and Classic Car Definition: India

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Originally Posted by wasif View Post
In Mercedes models "S" denoted the higher end luxury models....they were all 4 door models. The "SC" cars were the two door coupes / convertibles.

Then when the fuel injected models came it they were "SE" and the long wheelbase cars were the "SEL"
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Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
All four models of the 300, came with four door convertibles which were produced in very small numbers and were insanely expensive, also very collectible.

Yes i agree. The S was used as a nomenclature for their two door coupes but a car had been unearthed in Netherlands and one in Uganda if im not mistaken (Idi Amin's?) which bore the 300S nomenclature and was four door. I dont know if these were special orders but yes and no, the 300S meant a coupe/four door convertible. Though there is not much available on the net about these cars. I have some literature re them which i will fish out and post ...if i can find it The D was the long (Lange)wheel base version ordered by the Pope.

Wasif, what you have mentioned is the standard Merc nomenclature (but as always in the complex world of Mercs there were exceptions) from the Pontons and more so from the Fintail era. Not getting into that.

What I have said is specific to the 300 series that was produced alongside the 300SL and the Pontons. First, for the 300 series, the "S" always referred to the 2 doors be it coupes, cabriolets or the very rare roadsters. They are not to be confused with the 300"Sc". The "S" has triple Solex carbs. The Sc came later again in coupe, cab and roadster but the added "C" denoted fuel injection. Back then, SC didn't refer to coupes/cabs.

Now coming to SE, yes the SE was first applied to the Ponton 220SE sedan, coupe and cab to denote fuel injection. Why Merc had separate markings for the 300 and the Pontons is something that even Daimler Benz is confused about (not kidding). Only later did SC denote coupes and then it just gets more and more complex with SEC, long wheel base SEL, etc etc.

Lastly, the 300 saloons that I am talking about had 4 models along their production life. In terms of chronology, 300, 300b, 300c & 300d. The first 300 is retrospectively referred to as the 300a, like the 2nd. RR Phantom was called the "New Phantom" but later was called the PII when the PIII came out. It's very hard to make out an external difference between the 300a and b but the c could be easily distinguished coz it had front quarter glasses/vent windows. The 300d was a different body altogether and was fuel injected only. And as V16 has correctly pointed out, it had a longer wheelbase but as standard and was available to anyone who could afford it. Maybe the Pope got even extra wheel base and the landaulet of course

And yes, all the 300 saloons were available as convertibles.

This is the first I'm hearing of a 300S convertible. Must be 2 of a kind.

For our understanding, attaching pics of the 300b, c and d. Note the car with the flags has the front quarter windows, hence it's a 300c. The first car is the 300d and the middle one is either a 300a or b.

Best Regards
mbz180
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Vintage & Classic Mercedes Benz Cars in India-300d.jpg  

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Old 14th March 2012, 18:16   #1219
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Default Re: Vintage and Classic Car Definition: India

Here is a link with some details on the W186 to W 189 300 series from MB

300 300b 300c 300d Convertible Sedan 1951-1962

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...enz-300SC.aspx

Last edited by wasif : 14th March 2012 at 18:21.
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Old 14th March 2012, 22:12   #1220
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Default Re: Vintage and Classic Car Definition: India

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The info in these links fall exactly in place as what I have said. The 300S and Sc were always 2 door, be it roadster, cabriolet or coupe. Maybe there is a confusion over cabriolet. Cabriolet here does not refer to a 4 door conv., but a 2 door conv.

Regards
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Old 15th March 2012, 15:30   #1221
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Default Re: Vintage & Classic Mercedes Benz Cars in India

I agree with Prithvi about the confusion which mostly happens with S and Sc also that the earlier S was reserved for the coupes only. I have seen a wrongly badged 300S four door. What i am referring to were the pillar less sedans/saloons of which there were also convertibles not to be mixed with the ;lot that are already mentioned on concept carz and Wiki. Of course i may be mistaken so let me first dig out the info from my old files, scan it and post it or else mention that i have been mistaken. Let me dig out the two rare finds which were mentioned. I think i remember correctly but then again if i am mistaken, id be most happy to be corrected.
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Old 15th March 2012, 20:40   #1222
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Default Re: Vintage and Classic Car Definition: India

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Now coming to SE, yes the SE was first applied to the Ponton 220SE sedan, coupe and cab to denote fuel injection. Why Merc had separate markings for the 300 and the Pontons is something that even Daimler Benz is confused about (not kidding). Only later did SC denote coupes and then it just gets more and more complex with SEC, long wheel base SEL, etc etc.
Probably the change occurred as a result of change to Unitary construction starting with the 180 sedan. Merc probably wanted to distinguish between the older separate chassis cars and the Monocoque ones. The 180 was excluded as it was the first unitary bodied Merc and they were testing if the experiment was successful. So the 220 series coupe and sedan had the S suffix and the fuel injected versions became E (Einzspritmotor = Injection)

Source: Rainer W. Schlegelmilch in his book 'Mercedes'. He is only indirectly hinting that of-course.

IMHO German expansions are better to remember
Pre 220
S - Sport ( 2 door Coupes, 2 door Cabriolets )
SS - Super Sport
K - Kurz meaning short wheelbase
L - Leicht meaning light
C - Fuel Injection
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Old 16th March 2012, 04:06   #1223
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Default Re: Vintage & Classic Mercedes Benz Cars in India

Dear Team- Bhp Members,

I need help and suggestions from your side, for getting my 1985 w123 300D MH Mercedes register on my name in Hyderabad, the RTA here in Hyderabad insist to have the original invoice which was raised at the time of import i.e. 1997. Or he says he will take the value the car accordingly i.e.1997 Value which turns out to be 18 lakhs( Must be considering a W 210 E Class) after depreciation and will charge 5.5 % tax Please help!!!!

Moderators:- I thought this is the best thread to get MB related answer.

Regards

Muzzammil Khan
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Old 16th March 2012, 11:10   #1224
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Default Re: Vintage and Classic Car Definition: India

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..........C - Fuel Injection
Slight error,
E = Einspritz = Fuel Injection,
C = Coupe

Just as a lark, I am attaching a picture of a 1950's 300 S (please no controversies here), photo taken from the rear. There is a plaque saying "EINSPRITZMOTOR". This is also on Pranlal's car, it means fuel injected engine, and apparently has been shortened to "E".

K also stood/stands for Kompressor, and now Mercedes write the whole word.

Cheers harit
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Last edited by harit : 16th March 2012 at 11:12.
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Old 16th March 2012, 16:10   #1225
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Slight error,
E = Einspritz = Fuel Injection,
C = Coupe

Just as a lark, I am attaching a picture of a 1950's 300 S (please no controversies here), photo taken from the rear. There is a plaque saying "EINSPRITZMOTOR". This is also on Pranlal's car, it means fuel injected engine, and apparently has been shortened to "E".

K also stood/stands for Kompressor, and now Mercedes write the whole word.

Cheers harit
But this is fun controversy Haritji Ok, now I'd like to say something. I honestly did not know that the 300Sc cars had Einsprintz Motor labelled at the rear. But then, I can say with confidence that they were called the 300Sc and the "c" did denote fuel injection for that generation of Mercs. "E" did not denote fuel injection for them, yes Einsprintz is written but it was never the 300Se or Sec. And the "c" did not stand for coupe for those cars. How then does one explain that the earlier non-injected 300S cars which were also 2 doors never had a "c"? Jazzman has said something which I think is the best explanation-maybe DB used the "E" on the Ponton's as they were unitary construction and used "c" on the 300S since they were not. And this is when the "c" also started denoting a coupe as in the Fintail gen and the "E" stayed on as fuel injection.
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Old 16th March 2012, 16:35   #1226
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But this is fun controversy Haritji .....
I always maintain that I am having fun on tbhp. And then try to be accurate.
I have seen reams of paper written about Mercedes nomenclatures, and just added my bit. The 1964 220S was never a "S" class the way it is seen today, yet it was top of the line at that time.

Cheers harit

Last edited by harit : 16th March 2012 at 16:37.
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Old 16th March 2012, 17:15   #1227
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I always maintain that I am having fun on tbhp. And then try to be accurate.
I have seen reams of paper written about Mercedes nomenclatures, and just added my bit. The 1964 220S was never a "S" class the way it is seen today, yet it was top of the line at that time.

Cheers harit

I totally agree. The 220S Ponton was never the top line in the Merc line up either. That honour went to the 300 4 door sedans and 4 door convertibles.

But to add a little fuel to the fire, the 220S of 1964 was not the top of the line at that time. It was the 300SE, fuel injected with air suspension

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Old 16th March 2012, 17:59   #1228
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I totally agree. The 220S Ponton was never the top line in the Merc line up either. That honour went to the 300 4 door sedans and 4 door convertibles.
But to add a little fuel to the fire, the 220S of 1964 was not the top of the line at that time. It was the 300SE, fuel injected with air suspension
Regards mbz180
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Originally Posted by harit View Post
I always maintain that I am having fun on tbhp. And then try to be accurate.
I have seen reams of paper written about Mercedes nomenclatures, and just added my bit. The 1964 220S was never a "S" class the way it is seen today, yet it was ('the' is misssing here) top of the line at that time. Cheers harit
Hey Prithvi, now the joke is on you!

1) Don't add fuel to any fire, put it in your tank, its now quite expensive and dangerous.

2) When I said top of line, I deliberately did not put the word "the", so what you thought I said I did not say.

3) I am not sure that 300SE was the top of line in 1964, the 600, W 100 was introduced in 1963!! It's also about accuracy, na? And jokes too.

Cheers harit
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Old 16th March 2012, 18:45   #1229
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Hey Prithvi, now the joke is on you!

1) Don't add fuel to any fire, put it in your tank, its now quite expensive and dangerous.

2) When I said top of line, I deliberately did not put the word "the", so what you thought I said I did not say.

3) I am not sure that 300SE was the top of line in 1964, the 600, W 100 was introduced in 1963!! It's also about accuracy, na? And jokes too.

Cheers harit
Ok, so the jokes on me now But from my perspective, the 300SE was in realistic terms, top of the line, since I consider the 600 Grand Mercedes as a completely different type of car altogether. Why do I consider the 300SE top of the line? Because it was also a fintail, looked very similar to the 220S and 230S but had extra chrome on the outside and was more luxurious with more standard options and the air suspension part. Of course, before I am corrected again, there was a 300SE LWB as well!

The only modern comparison I can make is between the current S-Class's and the Maybach's. Yes, the Maybach is not a Mercedes, but it's sort of taken the place of the 600's.

But then that is my personal opinion and concede that technically it was the 600 that was the ultimate in 1963.

Best Regards
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Old 16th March 2012, 22:40   #1230
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Slight error,
E = Einspritz = Fuel Injection,
C = Coupe
There is a plaque saying "EINSPRITZMOTOR". This is also on Pranlal's car, it means fuel injected engine, and apparently has been shortened to "E".

K also stood/stands for Kompressor, and now Mercedes write the whole word.

Cheers harit
Dear Haritji,
I meant the nomenclature pre 220 days. In those days 'C' did stand for fuel injection and as you have pointed out 'Einspritzmotor' appeared in the 300SC on the trunklid. The word 'E' for Einspritzmotor was from post 220 to June 93 when it was dropped and the mid range was named E class.

As far as "K" is concerned how do you explain the 540K and the SSK which were called as such even without the 'Kompressor'. It was called as Kurz meaning SWB and the cars had 3 ratings namely blown, unblown and rated bhp meaning the customers could choose to have a supercharger installed.
Speaking of 'S', it first referred to a racer and then 2 door versions (both were termed Sportz) and now it is the top of the line luxo barge! Can we say the Grosser 770 as the equivalent of 'S' of today?

Regards
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