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Old 12th July 2012, 17:56   #511
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Default Re: Early registration numbers in India

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Originally Posted by travancore View Post
Here are two more of the Wanderer.
Looking at the Wanderer, I wonder why someone does not think of restoring the car to a decent level for display. She looks brush painted.

Here is another registration, KAR from Karachi, but which period? The bike is a Douglas, and picture is pre independence.

Cheers harit
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Last edited by harit : 12th July 2012 at 17:57.
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Old 13th July 2012, 11:51   #512
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Default Re: Early registration numbers in India

Harit,
As far as we know, KAR for Karachi was not introduced until 1939. I have a dated photo of KAR 4148 during the war. However, they only seem to have issued KAR and I have many photos of Pakistani KAx registrations but they are all on post war cars including the attached KAR 6805 but I would be very grateful if someone can confirm for me that it is indeed a post war car. I may well have it mis titled as I am bad on dating old cars

Pre war, Karachi was K originally, then KA and I guess that just possibly KAR followed perhaps in the mid 30s (Sind was created in 1936 if I remember). It seems strange to me that under the new national system of 1939, KAR was the registration when other cities were using serial letter A, B etc.

Is there any chance we can date the bike?
If you send me a bigger picture of the bike, I will ask some people what they think it is.
Cheers
Cedric
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Old 13th July 2012, 18:26   #513
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Default Re: Early registration numbers in India

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Originally Posted by sabinesnubbing View Post
Harit, As far as we know, KAR for Karachi was not introduced until 1939...... including the attached KAR 6805 but I would be very grateful if someone can confirm for me that it is indeed a post war car. .......
Pre war, Karachi was K originally, then KA ..... It seems strange to me that under the new national system of 1939, KAR was the registration when other cities were using serial letter A, B etc.
Is there any chance we can date the bike?.....Cheers Cedric
Hi Cedric,

The "new' Indian Motor Vehicle Act came into effect in 1939 when all cars were re-registered. This must have happened all over India, atleast Mumbai, Madras, and now you say Karachi. Therefore, cars registered in 1939 will be models manufactured BEFORE 1939.
As the act was common for all of British India, the number plate system was similar everywhere, Bengal, Karachi, Bombay Presidency, Madras etc. After 1947 the registrations in Pakistan continued in a similar fashion, so you see RIB etc.

To your post, KAR 6805 could be a model built 1938 onwards.

"K" was also a Bombay series, in fact it was the last "local" series of Bombay before the 1939 act. My Buick had a K number, after re-registration it became BMW. Therefore I doubt that K and KA were Karachi. The series rarely clashed concurrently, BLA in Bengal was running in the 1940's or so, in Mumbai maybe in the 1980's and BL series in Bengal were already re-registered.

The registration system in India was not logical even whenever they revamped. The first series of bombay was BMW, not BMA so why not KAR in Karachi? Even today when we have the new so called computer numbering system, Mumbai started with A, AA, CA, DA etc, then they suddenly changed midway and went to the logical sequences of AA, AB, AC, etc, then on to BB and yet we have YA. 30 years down the line your assiciation will be puzzled all over again. And Delhi has the worst system, just try to figure that out, they have progressive series in the digits meant to identify the RTO office.

The picture of the bike will not help because it appears to be of around 1930, and has definitely been reregistered in 1939.

I would like to add that you are the Guru of registrations on this forum and for many of us, till we caught up here, registrations were of little interest. It can be fascinating.

Cheers harit

Last edited by harit : 13th July 2012 at 18:32.
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Old 13th July 2012, 20:46   #514
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Default Re: Early registration numbers in India

Harit,
Guru indeed! This guru still has a lot of unanswered questions on the old Indian registrations :-)
I am certain that K and KA were Karachi originally. K310 was purchased in 1914 and there is no infomation if it was a new or second hand car then but it is much more likely it was second hand as first registrations are usually around 1903 or 1904 across India - albeit in small numbers. I think KA appeared in the 20s so it is easily possible that, by the end of the 30s when Bombay needed a new letter, K was considered available as all or nearly all of the original 1903 -1920 Karachi K cars were scrapped or off the road. Why did Bombay use T, N and K at the end? - I bet we never get an answer to that!
I think it is probaby true to say that the 1939 series caused reregistration throughout most of India and certainly in most of the more populated places but there are several places that continued the original marks including Quetta, also in Sindh, with all the rest of Sindh (except Karachi also) getting SNx to indicate the town.
I still think that it is likely that KAR was a mid 30s registration when KA ended and I think I will stick with that until you get us some more pictures :-)
I may (or may not) be the guru but you are the one who finds the pictures and proof!

On the new 'system' it varies so much from state to state it is very, very confusing. Delhi is actually one of the ones I think I am nearest to figuring out properly but if someone based there can answer a few questions for me, I will be very happy.
Cheers
Cedric
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Old 13th July 2012, 20:55   #515
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Default Re: Early registration numbers in India

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Hi Cedric,
"K" was also a Bombay series, in fact it was the last "local" series of Bombay before the 1939 act. My Buick had a K number, after re-registration it became BMW. Therefore I doubt that K and KA were Karachi. The series rarely clashed concurrently, BLA in Bengal was running in the 1940's or so, in Mumbai maybe in the 1980's and BL series in Bengal were already re-registered.
Cheers harit
It may be added that old Central Provinces had the CP series. When Bombay and later Maharashtra and Gujarat were formed, the BM/ BY and later MH/ MR series came along for Maharashtra, followed by other series like MM,MF, MA (remember Raj Kapoor's white Ambassador Mk 4 was MAM 344) BL,BM (a new two wheeler series BMN commenced in Bombay in the late 1980s').
The CP series was later on, gone totally. Later on, Madhya Pradesh was unable to come to terms with the monster like appetite of Maharashtra, Madras and Mysore states for the "M" letter, with several series like the ones for Maharashtra ( it consumed MC,MT,MG,MJ (my Maruti 800 is MJT 20), MV, MW, MX and MZ (my TVS 50 is MZU 8954), apart from the above mentioned combinations. MY, MD, MS, ME and so on were left for Madras and Mysore.
Coming to Madhya Pradesh, it started with the conventional MP series. When MP was over, they switched over to CP series in the early 1970's. CPR and CPS were for Raipur, CPB, CPC for Bhopal, CPG, CPH for Gwalior, CPJ, CPK for Jabalpur. CP was for Central Pradesh perhaps!
Soon, Madhya Pradesh started the MB, MI, MO and MU series, which they could find were not consumed by Maharashtra.
These series like MB, MI, MO and MU were meant to spread out the "M" spectrum and just occupy the vacant, leftover slots. Hardly a few third letters were used for all these. It was like each unreserved and vacant berth being occupied in a general rail bogie spreading bed covers or lungis .

The lower state excise duty in M.P. came as a carrot for car and bike (also truck) buyers in Maharashtra, who were taxed much higher. As a result, across the border purchases were rampant all through the 1980's and 1990's. These gave a fillip to registrations in M.P. and each series moved faster at supersonic speed with thousands of vehicles landing in Maharashtra. Maharashtra used the entry tax weapon and slammed its doors on such imports. The state sales taxes were later more or less rationalised.
The new MV Act of 1988 came as a breather for M.P. as though they had laid their sights on so many "M" combinations, the future was difficult. They would have had to resort to something like the CP (Central Pradesh), series sooner or later.. And the formation of Chhattisgarh was again a boon for Madhya Pradesh registration-wise, as both went their separate ways with the MP and CG series.
But both these governments of MP and Chhattisgarh have totally annihilated all the remnants of the older series by making re- registrations compulsory for every old motor vehicle.

Early registration numbers in India-dsc04721.jpg

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The two above pictures show the benevolence of Maharashtra to tolerate old registrations.

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Not only that, older registrations from other states too flourish in Maharashtra. This one would have been screwed up with a MP 04 W ---- in Bhopal.

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This 1929 Ford Model A, with the Chavak family of Chhindwara, M.P. since 1929, had an old number plate that has been now screwed up.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 13th July 2012 at 21:19.
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Old 13th July 2012, 21:32   #516
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Default Re: Early registration numbers in India

I am adding another picture of a 1931 Ford Model A Tourer that still maintains the old Central Province number plate.

Early registration numbers in India-dsc00280.jpg

And a 1922 Harley Davidson that also still has the old number plate!

Early registration numbers in India-dsc00335.jpg
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Old 13th July 2012, 23:20   #517
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Default Re: Early registration numbers in India

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I am adding another picture of a 1931 Ford Model A Tourer that still maintains the old Central Province number plate.

And a 1922 Harley Davidson that also still has the old number plate!
Is that legally still valid in Nagpur? Like the BM, BY series still existant in Bombay, Pune etc.?
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Old 14th July 2012, 11:12   #518
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I am adding another picture of a 1931 Ford Model A Tourer ..... And a 1922 Harley Davidson that also still has the old number plate!
Retaining an old number plate is one thing, to have a legally valid document is another. Please try to have a look at the registration books of these vehicles. When were they registered?

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Is that legally still valid in Nagpur? Like the BM, BY series still existant in Bombay, Pune etc.?
Many years ago all old registrations in Mumbai like BMW, BYJ etc. were compulsarily re-registered in the BLI series. There were protests and the idea was dropped. Those cars which were re-registered had the option of reverting to the old.

Cheers harit
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Old 14th July 2012, 11:57   #519
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Default Re: Early registration numbers in India

Anjan,
Excellent stuff!
The old Central Provinces CPB plates, do you think they are B for Berar (it was Central Provinces and Berar after all)? Or maybe another town?
Cheers
Cedric
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Old 14th July 2012, 16:35   #520
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Many years ago all old registrations in Mumbai like BMW, BYJ etc. were compulsarily re-registered in the BLI series. There were protests and the idea was dropped. Those cars which were re-registered had the option of reverting to the old.

Cheers harit
Never knew about the BLI series of Mumbai. Thats news.Nothing of that kind happened in Nagpur however. The idea must have got punctured before take off.

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Is that legally still valid in Nagpur? Like the BM, BY series still existant in Bombay, Pune etc.?
Yes indeed these are valid and legal. I go for the fitness of my Landmaster every five years. Some more of the old registrations that fluorish till date in Maharashtra:

Early registration numbers in India-dsc07824.jpg

Early registration numbers in India-dsc07872.jpg

Early registration numbers in India-dsc08766.jpg

Early registration numbers in India-dsc09080.jpg

A bike from AP is also going strong here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabinesnubbing View Post
Anjan,
Excellent stuff!
The old Central Provinces CPB plates, do you think they are B for Berar (it was Central Provinces and Berar after all)? Or maybe another town?
Cheers
Cedric
Cedric not really sure about CPB but has got to be the Nagpur series. Both the Harley and the Ford (1931) are with the respective families since new and both are Nagpur based.

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Old 14th July 2012, 17:21   #521
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Default Re: Early registration numbers in India

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Yes indeed these are valid and legal. I go for the fitness of my Landmaster every five years. Some more of the old registrations that fluorish till date in Maharashtra:

A bike from AP is also going strong here!
I didnt mean the BY/BM series which I know are accepted there, but the CP series like the Harley's and other states regns. like the MP and AP vehicles.
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Old 14th July 2012, 17:23   #522
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Never knew about the BLI series of Mumbai.
That's why I always say that I have learnt a lot on t-bhp.

Basically, all registrations in India post 1939 are valid, except some commercial vehicles where a law came into effect that these have to be scrapped or externed from major metropolitan cities like Mumbai. And numbers of vehicles where some political boundries have changed, like BYA of Ahmedabad, or all those Pakistani numbers.

About photos of registrations, what I put up is rare or obscure numbers, like the recent BYD. I'll be putting up some more soon. Pictures of regular common private registered vehicles are available galore.

Cheers harit
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Old 14th July 2012, 17:31   #523
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I didnt mean the BY/BM series which I know are accepted there, but the CP series like the Harley's and other states regns. like the MP and AP vehicles.
I am not sure about the CP series however. I will ask the Harley owner sometime and post here. Maybe he does or does not revalidate the RC/TC books.
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Old 14th July 2012, 18:08   #524
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..... but the CP series like the Harley's and other states regns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
.... I will ask the Harley owner sometime....
A possible scenario is that the CPB series may be valid, but there may not be any records. But the owner must keep the vehicles taxed and books upto date.

Here is another registration which I saw in photos posted in PakWheels.
The car is a Buick, it is in the Indian subcontinent, the number is p3556c. One picture is of the car in front of the Parliament building in Delhi, the other somewhere in the mountains. This registration appears to be north east India/Pakistan, but FP was already there for Frontier Province. Maybe this is an extension of that series.
Over to Cedric

Cheers harit
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Old 15th July 2012, 10:53   #525
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Default Re: Early registration numbers in India

Anjan,
Many thanks for the CPB info.

Harit,
P was the original Punjab province series and probably sometime in the 20s it became P with an A suffix. Then the B suffix followed in the 1930s and finally the C suffix. I have photos of P, P - A, P - B and P - C and I believe you have P 7380 A with a girl sitting on a motorbike.
If you find a P - D photo from just before the 'national' system started, please let me know
Cheers
Cedric
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