Studebaker and Nash Cars in India

[harit]

Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar

Hi everyone,
The Studebaker Hawk's where very famous in their times.There are four Hawk's known to me which are in India. I would like to trace down and see how many cars are still existing or were there in India. Would like everyone one to participate and help me doing so. Looking forward to it.

Hi Indrojit,
You have 4 Hawks, I know of three.
Golden in Pune
Red in Mumbai
Yours.

Till date I have not come across any in my old photos collection.

Cheers harit

[IndrojitSircar]

Hi harit
There was a silver hawk in calcutta which was show to my father in the late 60's he did buy the car then because he thought it was not worth it at that point of time.Recently i believe a silver hawk was found in delhi with a bombay reg.It has been bought by a collecter in delhi.i dnt have any furthur news on that car.The calcutta car had a WB reg though.

[hillram]

I dont think Hyderabad has any Studebaker Hawks.Never heard anyone speak of them nor did they turn up at any Rally.

[IndrojitSircar]

Originally Posted by hillram

I dont think Hyderabad has any Studebaker Hawks.Never heard anyone speak of them nor did they turn up at any Rally.

Thankx for the information you shared.

Seems like there where very few hawks in india or there were more but not known to many people.

[IndrojitSircar]

Originally Posted by wasif

Aw why can't you fly down there this evening and get the pics uploaded ASAP.

How can you ask us to wait for a full month. Some of us might not survive that long !!!

Originally Posted by wasif

It is not possible to tell if the car is a Golden or a Filght Hawk by the pictures we have seen so far of it. One thing is certain is that it has to be one of these and it is definitely not a Sliver Hawk or any other Hawk.

I have been pointing out that the only actual way to be dead certian is to see pictures of the interior and the engine bay and to check the Chassis / engine number.

Personally I would love to know it is confirmed as a Golden Hawk as this car in my opinion is the original Americal Muscle Car and the granddaddy of all the musclecars that have followed since.

The purity of the design is by itself classic and timeless. This is one of those few body designs that will never age and will always look fresh just like the Ferarri 275 GTB, Prosche 911 and also the Jaguar E Type.

All in all an amazing piece of kit. Now if it was a Flight hawk it would still be an awsome machine and if it is actually a Golden Hawk then nothing like it.

I personally feel the Flight Hawk looks more purer without the add on fins of the Golden Hawk.

If it was left to me I would not bolt on the said fins and let the car look like Lowey actually wanted it to look not corrupted by the then prevailing market influences that resulted in the bolting on of teh said fins.

This car will always feature prominently in any enthuseasts list of landmark designs along with the likes of the early letter series Chryslers.

Originally Posted by Prabal

Sorry Wasif, me thinks the options could only be between a Golden or Sky Hawk. No other talons for me!

Now, where's that bottle of Coke...?

Originally Posted by Prabal

You said Flight Hawk and not Sky Hawk, my friend. Sorry I don't mean to rub it in or , just clarifying.

Cheers,

Prabal (and not Parbal, or Parboil or Parabola - don't believe MS Word).

Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar

Don't worry all of us have many years to go still don't worry.

Hi sorry the picture i have is of the body number plate which is still on the car and i am uploading the picture.I am sorry i said that the picture is of the engine number and chassis number that was by mistake.I would also request all of you to have a look at a link of a video on youtube which is about the authentification of this car according to the body number plate on the car.So please do have a look at that before you come to any conclusion if it is or not a 1956 Golden Hawk.The link to the video is

YouTube - 1956 Studebaker Golden Hawk Authenticity 001

and

YouTube - 1956 Studebaker Golden Hawk Authenticity 002

The first part is the one which contains the information for the body number plate.



Mods-Please edit this post if required but do not delete it.Thank you


cheers.

[V-16]

Matter settled now with the video and the body plate pic of his car that Indrojit has posted.

Firstly lets not get sceptical about everything and everyone. The man has gone and said that his car is a 56 Golden Hawk and if we have strict reason to believe otherwise, it should be understood as that. IMHO, the owner would have a better detail of the car he owns,.... unless he is not so knowledgeable about its details cars, which Indrojit certainly does not seem to be.

Secondly the fact that we do not know of any such second car does not mean that one does not exist. Like Prabal (yes i checked the spelling, in case i get reprimanded by him) i chose to believe in Indrojit's claims not having any material to doubt him. Please guys, no one of us knows about every car that exists in India or is present here. Indrojit has given clear explanations to valid queries raised by some gurus, i dont see the reason to doubt him.

I will draw your attention to the 300SL gullwing thread where someone made a claim and got jacked by one and all, including me. Well even there, we all said we had not got any confirmation from anyone having seen or heard of a gullwing in India but were open to correction which never came. The person making the claim got so deeply involved with lies that he got caught and i dont think is on the forum anymore.

I have been following this thread but my knowledge about Golden Hawks has grown with this thread. If i were amongst those who had doubted Indrojit's claims, i would have owed him an apology.

For those who still continue to doubt, see the first video where it is clearly said that all Hawks have the J-K7 plate. 56 being the year of manufacture, J for the Packard 352 V-8 it houses and K7 for it being a hardtop.

Case Closed!! Thanks for the Videos Indrojit.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by V-16

Firstly lets not get sceptical about everything and everyone

Very well said Gogi. This is not the first time someone has doubted a car on TBHP.

I personally feel on this forum you will have both, mistaken owners and mistaken doubters.

What is essential is to maintain a decorum where we don't offend each other or raise questions about each other's integrity publicly.

Its just plain indecent to do so.

Glad the issue is settled.

Indrojit your efforts to clear the doubt are really appreciated. The last time when such a doubt was raised about a car and I requested the owner for pictures of body numbers ( a fact corroborated by a highly respected historian and restorer of that very car ) to prove the doubter wrong he brushed my request aside with a "can't be bothered about idiots who don't know, infact ask the fellow to prove my car is altered and I'll wager $10000" !!!.

I personally would have prefered the owner to have allowed for clarity rather than just brush it all aside. Because a part me appreciates the doubters too, for after all the vintage car world is also known to be inundated with cars with incorrect identifications and history.

Thanks

[wasif]

Guys I never questioned the owners claim on this car but was looking for conclusive evidence of this.

Now its know all the Golden Hawks had that body number. am trying to optain more infor on this particular number on that plate.

Now it would have been much earlier clarified had the pics of the engine bay or for that matter teh dash were posted earlier.

I am still very curious and eagerly await teh day when we can actually see the engine bay pics, the carb and the dash.

Indrojit please do oblige. I understand you have mentioned that the engine is opened up even then please do post some pics of it and the speedo and dash.

[wasif]

Hi Indrojit.

I was in touch with Frank Ambrogio of the Studebaker Golden hawk Owners regestry regarding your car and he has provided some facinating details on this. these are re produced below along with a copy of your cars original production order. Please send me an email address for you so that i can forward this correspondence to you.

Hi Wasif:
Thank you for writing and for sending the body number of your friend's car. That car is a new one for my register and I have added it to my records.

• The "K" in the Body Number (56J-K7) identifies your friend's car ISa 1956 Studebaker Golden Hawk. If the car was a Sky Hawk, that letter would have been an"H"(56H-K7).
• The Serial Number, which should have been on a plate on the Driver's side door jamb is 6032564
• The Golden Hawk has small fibreglass fins on the rear quarter panels. The Sky Hawk does not. The Golden Hawk came with a Packard 352 cubic inch V-8 engine. The valve covers are secured with bolts along the lower lip of the covers.
• The Sky Hawk came with a Studebaker 289 cubic inch V-8. The valve covers are secured with four bolts that go right through the top of the valve covers.

I have attached a copy of the car's production order from my data base, which I generated from the original production orders from Studebaker. The production order shows a Destination of: UNITED STATES MISC which means it was sent somewhere outside the United States. Where I don't know. The production order lists the equipment that was originally on the car as well as the original color. This may help you confirm that this is the same car

Here are several things that will help:

• Our web site at www.1956GoldenHawk.com has a lot of information posted there, including a Parts Manual, Authenticity Guide, and all the back issues of our newsletter. Click on Options, and look down the column on the left for these. These are all available on CD, but they are free on the web site. Click on Publications and Products to see the CD listing.
• Also, go to my other web site at
• www.StudebakerVendors.comThere you will find links to most of the vendors with web sites who can help. Most have email addresses listed where you can contact them directly.
• I have uploaded a series of Authenticity videos on YouTube.com. My channel is at: YouTube - 56sghor's Channel There you can watch all the videos I've posted, including the Authenticity Guide series of about 11 videos. Each is less than 10 minutes long. Hopefully, YouTube is available in the UAE and India. If not, I have also just completed a Restorer's Guide on DVD which is made up of the YouTube videos.
• We have a 1956 Golden Hawk Message Forum where about 150 owners ask and answer questions. I will send you an invitation to join in a separate email from my Yahoo Email address. You (and/or your friend) can join or drop out at any time and no one will bother you.

You have come to the right place. Our goal is to help get/keep all 1956 Golden Hawks on the road

Sincerely:

Frank Ambrogio
1956 Studebaker Golden Hawk Owners Register
STUDEBAKER VENDORS WEB SITE PARTS DIRECTORY

Isnt this amazing, they even have the cars key number for you along with the accessories it came with .... imagine how that Kleenex dispenser that cam with it might have looked like ?

[IndrojitSircar]

Hi V16 , DKG and Wasif

Thank you for taking out a bit of time for this matter.It ment a lot to me to proove that my car is a 1956 Golden hawk.There were many people who told me not to bother and proove that if it is or not a golden hawk including my own father.He told me one thing that it doesn't matter what people think it is but we know what our car is.I still felt that since i started discussing and joined this forum to know about vintage & Classic cars it is my duty to atleast try and help others.Many people don't have good views about this forum but i would like to change their views.We need to be a bit more supportive and try and put things in such a way that people don't feel hurt about things.I am not angry or hurt about anything anyone told me so no appolagies required .I just wanted everyone to know that it is the only 1956 Golden Hawk in India.I want to see this car on the road as soon as possible and would require some parts which i shall look for using the links given by Wasif.This i think would then be the only 1956 Golden Hawk in India perhaps. Anyway Thank you Mr.Gogi and DKG for all the support you have given me i'm really greatful to you. Thank you wasif for all the info you have provided for both my mercedes and golden hawk really apriciate your help.Prabal has also given me a lot of info about this car and has supported me time and again.Wasif i shall put up pics of the engine,dash,meters fins etc next time i'm there with the car and hope to do some more work on this car.Anymore quaries please feel free to ask.The support provided by all changed my view about this forum and am sure it will of others as well after seing each and ever discussion taken place.


Cheers

Indrojit Sircar

[IndrojitSircar]

Originally Posted by harit

Dear Indrojit, please end this with engine pics. All of us like Golden Hawks, hence the keen interest and excess discussions.

Prabal, Googling is more convenient, the old paper publications have to be gone through. Sometimes the dust gets in the throat.

I have long back changed my opinion that this could indeed be a Golden Hawk. But if we can confirm 100% it will add to our knowledge.

Empirical data, well there is a gap. In the 1950's consulates could sell off their cars directly to individuals, STC came later. One could follow up with STC about cars which had gone through their hands. But what about pre STC cars? I got a 1953 Packard Mayfair coupe which this person purchased from the American Embassy and took straight to Kerala. So the car was hardly known till we came across her.
I very much want this to be the second Golden Hawk.

Originally Posted by Prabal

Wasif, the bigger fins on the Golden Hawk came about in 1957. The '56 GH had smaller fins. The fins, made of fibreglass, were also bolted on! So even if the fender had been there on her right now, the fin could still have been removed! But then, the whole fender is not there in the first place!!



Harit, the Kolkata car in question here is clearly a 1956, not only because the owner says so, but also going by the shape. And Silver Hawks were introduced in 1957! They also had B-pillars, while Mr Sircar's Stude is clearly pillarless. So while there may have been a Silver Hawk in Calcutta, it would be a different one and not Mr. Sircar's. And for reference/research, why are we only using Mr. Google. Whatever happened to the good old brick-and-mortar paper publications?! Lazy about that too?!



Why are we going on conjecturing that Indrojit's car isn't a Golden Hawk? Is it because of the fins? Well, Indrojit had clarified earlier also, few days ago that is, that the fenders are removed, hence the fins are not showing (although one can make that out from the pictures oneself!) We've also just seen about the small and bigger fins on the Goldie a couple of lines above in this post, so there. The Pune car is clearly a '57 or later.

Or, is it because of the engine? Indrojit had also clarified a few days ago that she is indeed powered by the 352 cid V8 engine. Does anyone else know otherwise for a fact? Or is there any way of telling otherwise from here? So no harm in going with what Indrojit has been saying, and after he's had to say it once too often, right? Maybe, just maybe, Indrojit has got it slightly wrong somewhere (although he says that the Blue-book also says it's a Golden Hawk!), even then she would be nothing less than a Sky Hawk (which you too had correctly remarked earlier). The Sky Hawk might have been less loaded than the Goldie and therefore cheaper, but it is even rarer because fewer pieces were made to start with. So it's very very desirable too. The Golden and Sky Hawks were the only pillarless ones (no B-pillar that is) so it's not difficult to tell - just saving those search engines from being revved!!

Is there any empirical data that shows only one Golden Hawk ever coming to India?! I don't know why I get this feeling, deep down in the recess of my often-truant memory, that I remember more!

I have written in another post that I had been acquainted with Indrojit's very car way back in 1979 and I remember her as a Golden Hawk! But, instead of relying on my geriatric memory which tends to play tricks at the most inopportune times these days, I would only go by what Indrojit has been reiterating, time and again. I would really like to believe him, because I do so want her to be a Goldie after all. And from all the available clues at the moment with the rest of us, I'd say he's in the best position to know what she really is!

Originally Posted by harit

The red Hawk was never considered to be a Golden Hawk. See my post reproduced below:

16th April 2009, 19:38 harit
BHPian

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 358



This Kolkotta car is probably a Silver Hawk. A friend had seen it 10 years ago and it was shabby, and some minor modifications were done on it. There is always a chance that that was another car, but there were not too many around. BTW, was there also a Silver Hawk? Too lazy to google.
In Mumbai we have a 1956 Studebaker Flight Hawk having a straight 6 cylinder engine with automatic gearbox. That car came originally from Kolkotta.
Last edited by harit : 16th April 2009 at 19:40.


The owner of that car is a personal friend of mine.

Cheers harit

Dear Harit and Prabal,

Thank you very much both have you have been helping and supporting me for a long time and now that my car has been officially on team-bhp been prooved a golden hawk we should be glad that it is the only one perhaps with the 352cubic inch packard engine.Prabal has specially been very helpful evertime in the past to help me proove that it is a golden hawk.Anyway no hard feelings now we should try and get it on the road as soon as possible.Thankx again Prabal.



cheers

[wasif]

Well Gents.

I hope this conclusively proves that the Sircar Study is a 56 Golden Hawk..and as Indrojit pointed out this probably the only one to be found in India. That along with its amazing specs make this car truly priceless.

It is one of maybe 200 cars of this kind that are known to have survivied worldwide.

Now the interesting thing would be to try and learn who actually ordered this car and how it made its way to India. The regestry says it was an Export but they don't know where to or who for.

Given all this I feel it is imperative that this car recieves a world class restoration which I am sure can be accomplished by the owners going by what we have seen on their other cars.

In this endavour many parts will have to be imported and the costs will be great but at the end of the day the total will be insignificant compared to the value addition to the car.

There is strong vendor support for this car available and I am offering my help to Indrojit in any form that he needs to get items for his car.

Attached are pictures or a 56 Golden hawk in the Snowcap White / Sunglow Gold paint scheme that would have originally come on this car too.

And just for good measures they threw in power windows, white walls, seat belts, tinted glasses and a couple of things more as can be seen from the build sheet.

Note the speedo goes all the way to 160 MPH and this was in 1958 !!

[DKG]

Originally Posted by wasif

Note the speedo goes all the way to 160 MPH and this was in 1958 !!

After all its a Packard engine !!

[IndrojitSircar]

Hi
1).well i have marked the trims in the pictures provided which are missing and are required in red colour.
2).Apart from that a dynamo is missing which i have a new one in stock of a studebaker.
3).I would one piece break drum for starters.
4).Piston rings set and mayb new pistons as well.

The trims could be new or used as per availability.These are the basics required as per now the list would increase as the work progresses.

Thank you.

[wasif]

Its not gonna be easy to get parts in a piece meal haphazard manner. You will need to sit and make a comprehensive list of all parts required and then shop for the best prices etc.

I would suggest holding off on the trim items and concentrate on teh mechanicals first.

Regester yourself on the 57J website, download their parts manual and other interesting data they have and use this as reference.

They have a Stude Vendors website too. Check out whats available here.

Feel free to mail Frank on any clarifications you want or help on restoration. There a bunch of newsletters in PDF form also available on their website that will help you understand the car better and giver you authentic paint codes etc.

Do keep us posted on the developments.