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Old 27th April 2009, 21:06   #76
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Let me say that I agree people have been a renowned collected and knows all the cars in India, I would love to quote that my Dad is 63 and in this hobby since 1967. He is a older collector than the ones people are defending, which implies that he should be respected as well, and mind you, he is respected by people who matter. I appreciate that people are arguing about stuff they do not know. Please pick up and good car encyclopedia to find the similar klaxon horn especially made for foot boards. The bell horn in front of the radiator is a different thing. As for the question regarding the horn being on the side, please question the klaxon company and not me. As doubts in being a collecter, in that case there are hardly any collecters in India. 80% of my 'rubbish collection' dates back to the 70's. If thats made people happy. We do not consider anything as threats, and we do not need to run. Feel free to post everything you can and enjoy the recession. I very well now understand why few serous collectors decided to stay away from this forum. They said that it was a waste of energy, and I confess I am wasting mine. We have the capability of restoring and even fabricating things as per original, which we are open about. So whats the problem. How many people have this capability? I once again end by saying that it is upto us as to how we nurture our babies.

Cheerz!
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Old 28th April 2009, 04:52   #77
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"A Tempest in a Tea Pot!"

I appreciate DKG's comments and the thread that he had initiated identifying the diversity of enthusiasts that share, from various points of view" their love for vintage and classic cars....

It has been my privilege and pleasure to get to know many of the Collectors, Collector/Restorers, and Restorer/Collectors in Calcutta and participate as a judge at The Statesman Car Rallies where I have met such a cross section of enthusiasts from all walks of life. Many proudly bringing their daily drivers, some of them barely passing muster. It is indeed a big and as divers a "family" as India itself.....

I am distressed with the direction that this thread has taken and it is counterproductive to the spirit and purpose of this forum......

This forum has been a wonderful experience for me, getting to know so many members that i probably will never meet but nevertheless feel they are close friends and the insights and knowledge that i have learned while trying to share whatever I have to offer and most of all profiling those in Calcutta who share our passion with Team-BHP and some of the N.A. Car web-sites.

My advise to all the members of Team-BHP is, "NOT TO GIVE OFFENSE, NOR TAKE OFFENSE", and always keep in mind that while we all share the same road we are all on our own individual journeys with different points of interest and goals.

For those Collector/Restorers it is a challenge to put a skilled restoration team together and then to be able to keep them working productively, subsequently there is a turn over with some of the cars while they build their personal collections; Titus is a prime example and I could name many more....

Shashi Kanoria's small works has restored some of the best cars i have seen and while some might consider some of them a little "over restored or embellished", that is their prerogative and reflects their creative nature....

I am humbled at the quality of restorations I have seen here in Calcutta, New Delhi and on our Team BHP's website by ill equipped workshops and lack of resource information and parts. I have been equally impressed at the depth of knowledge some of the members have....

Lets not lose site of our objective to ensure that as many of the Vintage and Classic Cars survive for the enjoyment of future generations reflecting India's Automotive Heritage....

I sincerely hope that this Forum will continue to benefit from the Kanoria's wealth of experience and the standards that they have set for themselves. It might not be everyones "Cup of Tea", but one that most people appreciate and enjoy and for those who can afford them but don't have the facilities or vision to take these "junkers" and transform them into collectable works of art.
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Old 28th April 2009, 09:22   #78
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Shrivardhan

One of the drawbacks of internet communication is that's its one dimensional and more often than not people seem to miss out on the many non verbal cues we consider when we speak to another in person. Many here on TBHP forget that behind these internet handles are human beings with feelings. Please don't get offended and put off by what has happened. Many of us were really enjoying the threads that John started which you and Rajiv so enthusiastically contributed to.

Many people in this hobby "respected" or otherwise tend to keep all the info and experience to their chest and usually take it to their graves.

What we have successfully accomplished at TBHP is an atmosphere of sharing which clearly is a first in the otherwise fragmented community.

People will always have differing perspectives and while in real life communication discretion rules out open comments here on the net many get carried away. It happens all the time.

Do please continue sharing your family's rich experiences and disregard comments you are not comfortable answering. Often when you ignore someone's comments its a more effective way to let them know you don't value a reply to it.

Until John started the introductions of enthusiasts from Calcutta no one had bothered to document and introduce people from the region. I am certain many will join me in appreciating the wholeheartedness of your sharing with us details of the rich collection you and your family have the privilege of enjoying.

Lets put behind the recent spate of comments and do start telling us the many tales your dad would have to share.

Last edited by DKG : 28th April 2009 at 09:40.
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Old 28th April 2009, 10:31   #79
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Dear Shrivardhan.

Please be assured that neither me or for that matter anyone on this forum is trying to malign you or your families reputation and how and what you do to your cars.

There is no doubt that you guys are doing a great job in terms of restoring the cars that have passed through your hands with the limited resources available in India. Totally commendable.

Sometimes there might be some concerns about what is being done or was done to a particular car. These are not raised to pull you guys down or any thing in this manner. Its just that we want to ask why this, for example the wiring on the Chevy, is being done so.

If someone mentions someting about one of your cars that you feel is not accurate you should try to straighten the record with the correct facts.

There is no merit in abstraining from participation in discussions or threatning to pull out of the show. This is the beauty of debate. You might not like what another says but it is how you give a fitting reply is what matters.

Looking forward to your continuing inputs on the various threads.

We actually want to get information from a reliable source in Calcutta regarding the Mitter family and the Duesenberg cars.

It would be nice if you could look into the Duesenberg thread and clear up some of the loose ends. I'm sure your dad can contribute some serious info on these cars.
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Old 28th April 2009, 15:16   #80
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Hi,
Everyone, soaring tempers, and controversial comments are not what we want amongst a whole of car lovers like us (i presume). Firstly i would like to tell one and all on this thread, that i do not think that we are thinking with a cool mind before we write on this public forum. Before making any comment one should be aware of the fact that this should not be hinted at any particular collector or restorer.
I want to make something very clear, Srivardhan kanoria and me happen to be very very good friends, and both of us are crazy about cars, naturally because it has been in our blood, but this not going to influence what i am goin to say !!
I saw all that was written about the fiat and the citreon, and its a very simple theory as far as i am concerned. Its a democratic country, there is '' freedom of speech'' any one and everyone can say what they want. I only have a problem in the way things have been written and the tone seems to be fairly rude.
As far as the kanoria cars are concerned, both the cars are phenominally finished, with fabulous cosmetic work done on these cars, in fact i would put my head on the line and make a big statement, that '' the kanorias do best cosmetic work in the country ''.
Every single collector has got the right to do up their own cars the way they want to do it. There has been a lot said about the headlight, the bell horn etc etc. The kanorias have a stable full on pre 1920/1925 cars, hence i am sure that they know a lot about period accesories, and also to mention the fact that they can fabricate great stuff.
It is possible that someone might not like the flash and the showness of these cars but, why would someone question the restorer on a public forum. As for them they are a small unit and Mr. Shashy Kanoria does everything by himself with srivardhans assistance, and then to get result like this, is phenomenal. Every little detail is looked into. I Feel the problem with people in this forum is that we all tend to look at the negatives, of any restoration, instaed of saying wow, what a job done.
I have faced the music myself,when we resoted the bombay lancia to almost a zero defect car, the world kept talking about only the rim. It was a cartier winner and also got the best restored in the bombay rally 09, in spite what eveyone had to say about the rims.
Its time friends that we all relax, have a good time, appreciate others good work and move on.

cheers !!! rajiv
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Old 28th April 2009, 15:45   #81
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John, Rajiv, & DKG in particular,

Very beautifully summed up. I thank you guys for bringing this thread back to order. If nothing else, going by the thread hits today, its brought a lot of focus to the Kolkata Vintage car scene.

I apologize for my burst of emotions yesterday. As you might have realized, the expression might have been harsh, but the cause was noble.

I shall go back to being what I was till now, an obscure vintage car enthusiast who wishes to learn the faith by staying in vicinity of the high priests!
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Old 29th April 2009, 10:17   #82
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Hello all,

First of all let me state that I am not a collector but an enthusiast. My involvement with vintage cars is limited to reading all I can
get my hands on, attending rallies, visiting museums and building scale models. I suppose this is poor qualification to comment on the
recent posts. Nevertheless, I do have an opinion and I find it important to share it.

Certain posts have ruffled a lot of feathers on this thread. I shall not comment on the language or tone of these posts, the fact
remains that they have given offence to some of the members. This, in turn, has resulted in a mud-slinging match. In my humble opinion,
this is counter productive and only obfuscates the real problem.

As I see it, the problem is that of authenticity. If someone raises questions regarding the authenticity of a car/ restoration the
surest way to shut them up is to provide conclusive evidence proving otherwise. One might say "I dont need to prove anything to
anybody", nevertheless I do feel this would be the most efficient way to close the matter.
If, on the other hand, a certain "creative licence" has been taken while restoring a car, I find no harm in stating that. The sad truth
is that after all these "exciting" posts a poor enthusiast like me has no idea if the car is authentic or a homage. By the way, I have
no problems with homages. If the car was acquired in a miserable condition, with many parts missing, I would not grudge the owner a
certain amount of freedom in restoration. BUT, it is not my car and this is just an opinion

Another point I wish to make is that temper almost always clouds our judgement. Many heated words have been exchanged over terms like
'capability' & 'standards'. I think capability is the ability to do a certain job & a standard is the quality that is acceptable for
a certain job. So, while I might be capable of doing a certain job very well sometimes I might do it to a lower standard. I do feel, in
some cases, offence has been taken where none was given.

Please note that I do not wish to take sides. My intention is to offer an 'outsiders' perspective in the hope that it will calm tempers
and avoid any undercurrents on this thread/ forum.

Lastly, may I mention that I always look forward to seeing restoration pictures. I find it very interesting to see a pile of junk being
transformed into the thing of beauty that it was.

Kind regards
Aditya
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Old 29th April 2009, 13:31   #83
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With you all the way on this Traction Avant.
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Old 29th April 2009, 14:11   #84
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Congratulations Friends, for all the clarifications and understandings.
Lets make/keep the Forum flying High!! Lets all be genuine to the cause of the Automobile!! Egos dont last, Respect does.
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Old 29th April 2009, 17:16   #85
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First of all, this is with malice towards none!

Secondly, I salute the way TractionAvant (Aditya) and scooby05 have put it.

Itís a good thing that the thread is moving back to the spirit of the forum after the fracas. However, in keeping with the high standards set by T-BHP I expect to see strong action against the transgressions by some of the writers of the unfortunate posts of this thread, IMHO. These posts are in extremely poor taste, provocative and offensive (read personal attack) going by observations made against other posts in the past, and Iím sure others would agree with me. Otherwise I would find not much wrong with these posts in isolation (provided the language and tone had been more cordial and the forum hadnít targeted similar indiscretions before).

Letís see the spirit of the forum restored completely with the strong message that one rule applies to all. Otherwise, whatís the point reallyÖ?
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Old 29th April 2009, 18:52   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TractionAvant
As I see it, the problem is that of authenticity. If someone raises questions regarding the authenticity of a car/ restoration the
surest way to shut them up is to provide conclusive evidence proving otherwise. One might say "I dont need to prove anything to
anybody", nevertheless I do feel this would be the most efficient way to close the matter.
If, on the other hand, a certain "creative licence" has been taken while restoring a car, I find no harm in stating that. The sad truth
is that after all these "exciting" posts a poor enthusiast like me has no idea if the car is authentic or a homage.
I have a short while back restored a 1919 Citroen in Mumbai. I did not know much about the car to start with and so I used the internet as part of my source of information. A simple "1919 Citroen" in google search throws up many pictures of the car and I was glad to see that the car I had with me was similar to what I was seeing on the net. If I am not mistaken, in 1919 Citroen made only 1 body style for the "Type A". This was a 3 door tourer, as the area where the fourth door would have been, was taken up by the spare wheel. This car was the first car ever to be made on an assembly line set up. My Chassis number is 111 and a certain Malcolm Bobbitt in England, an authority on vintage Citroens, who has seen pictures of our car, has said that our car is a very early 1919 model, Type A.
When undertaking restoration work, I believe you have to be clear as to what you want from the final product. As far as possible, a restorer should try and get his car to look and perform like she did the day she rolled out of the factory. Originality therefore, becomes the essence of restoration. It is very easy to get carried away with over restoring a car when you have skilled workers that can make anything, especially with todays technology, and I am sometimes guilty of that myself, but as long as there was say for example, a side vent in the original car and you put a chrome surround on it because it looks nice, I would then say you are using or rather extending, your restoring licence, but to create a side vent when there never was one, is to my mind "Just Not Done" !!
This does not mean that the person who has done these alterations has not produced a beautifully finished car with excellent workmanship that people will naturally rave about. The question is, was this the way the car was manufactured? That is all the genuine restorer is interested in. There are very few of this knowledgeable breed left and we have a lot to learn from them. Take the points they make as learning experiences and remember them when you are doing your next project, is the way I would look at it.
I have attached some pictures of our car, not very good ones I am afraid, but let the comments flow.

Last edited by Rehaan : 30th April 2009 at 14:47. Reason: Hi, please use the QUOTE button to quote a part of the message you wish to reply to. Thanks.
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Old 30th April 2009, 00:56   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
With you all the way on this Traction Avant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scooby05 View Post
Congratulations Friends, for all the clarifications and understandings.
Lets make/keep the Forum flying High!! Lets all be genuine to the cause of the Automobile!! Egos dont last, Respect does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prabal View Post
First of all, this is with malice towards none!

Secondly, I salute the way TractionAvant (Aditya) and scooby05 have put it.

Itís a good thing that the thread is moving back to the spirit of the forum after the fracas. However, in keeping with the high standards set by T-BHP I expect to see strong action against the transgressions by some of the writers of the unfortunate posts of this thread, IMHO. These posts are in extremely poor taste, provocative and offensive (read personal attack) going by observations made against other posts in the past, and Iím sure others would agree with me. Otherwise I would find not much wrong with these posts in isolation (provided the language and tone had been more cordial and the forum hadnít targeted similar indiscretions before).

Letís see the spirit of the forum restored completely with the strong message that one rule applies to all. Otherwise, whatís the point reallyÖ?
Thank you gentlemen!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvette View Post
As I see it, the problem is that of authenticity. If someone raises questions regarding the authenticity of a car/ restoration the
surest way to shut them up is to provide conclusive evidence proving otherwise. One might say "I dont need to prove anything to
anybody", nevertheless I do feel this would be the most efficient way to close the matter.
If, on the other hand, a certain "creative licence" has been taken while restoring a car, I find no harm in stating that. The sad truth
is that after all these "exciting" posts a poor enthusiast like me has no idea if the car is authentic or a homage.

I have a short while back restored a 1919 Citroen in Mumbai. I did not know much about the car to start with and so I used the internet as part of my source of information. A simple "1919 Citroen" in google search throws up many pictures of the car and I was glad to see that the car I had with me was similar to what I was seeing on the net. If I am not mistaken, in 1919 Citroen made only 1 body style for the "Type A". This was a 3 door tourer, as the area where the fourth door would have been, was taken up by the spare wheel. This car was the first car ever to be made on an assembly line set up. My Chassis number is 111 and a certain Malcolm Bobbitt in England, an authority on vintage Citroens, who has seen pictures of our car, has said that our car is a very early 1919 model, Type A.
When undertaking restoration work, I believe you have to be clear as to what you want from the final product. As far as possible, a restorer should try and get his car to look and perform like she did the day she rolled out of the factory. Originality therefore, becomes the essence of restoration. It is very easy to get carried away with over restoring a car when you have skilled workers that can make anything, especially with todays technology, and I am sometimes guilty of that myself, but as long as there was say for example, a side vent in the original car and you put a chrome surround on it because it looks nice, I would then say you are using or rather extending, your restoring licence, but to create a side vent when there never was one, is to my mind "Just Not Done" !!
This does not mean that the person who has done these alterations has not produced a beautifully finished car with excellent workmanship that people will naturally rave about. The question is, was this the way the car was manufactured? That is all the genuine restorer is interested in. There are very few of this knowledgeable breed left and we have a lot to learn from them. Take the points they make as learning experiences and remember them when you are doing your next project, is the way I would look at it.
I have attached some pictures of our car, not very good ones I am afraid, but let the comments flow.

Cvette,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I too try take this approach when I build my silly scale models or restore an antique watch (which probably explains why I get so few models built or have watches that actually work ). Believe me, I consider hot-rodding as the eighth deadly sin!!!

However, what I am trying to say is that this is just a point of view. It is unreasonable to expect the entire world to agree with you. To do so, in my opinion, is just another form of extremism & intolerance.

Enough philosophy, I think this thread needs to return to what it is about, viz. "Calcutta-Collector/Restorers-Shashi Kanoria".

Kind regards

Aditya
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Old 30th April 2009, 07:19   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvette View Post
There are very few of this knowledgeable breed left and we have a lot to learn from them. Take the points they make as learning experiences and remember them when you are doing your next project, is the way I would look at it.
These are my exact sentiments. Probably I will or never own a vintage car but the knowledge that Im gaining from this website from the people who so willingly share is immense. This is something that I cannot get from a book off the shelf. I log onto the net and check this site before I even do my mail, and I really hope I will continue to do so.

Cheers
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Old 30th April 2009, 11:43   #89
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Attachment 130897
Quote:
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I have attached some pictures of our car, not very good ones I am afraid, but let the comments flow.
Sorry, seems the pictures did not upload with the text. Let me try again.
Attached Thumbnails
Calcutta-Collector/Restorers-Shashi Kanoria-1919-citroen-rally-cropped-2.jpg  

Calcutta-Collector/Restorers-Shashi Kanoria-1919-citroen-type-.jpg  

Calcutta-Collector/Restorers-Shashi Kanoria-ayj-car-collection-056.jpg  

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Old 30th April 2009, 12:17   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvette View Post
Attachment 130897
Sorry, seems the pictures did not upload with the text. Let me try again.
That is a very stylish car, typical French flair. See how sharply the mudguard flows compared to its contemporaries. Lovely. Was it this model that was nicknamed the 'Cloverleaf'?

Out of sheer curiousity, did the car originally come with the brass (?) accents on the doors, mudguards, wheel centres and the trademark double chevron on the radiator grille? Or is that 'restoring creative liscence' like you said?

Question is for educational purposes only!
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