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Old 30th April 2009, 12:53   #91
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Originally Posted by cvette View Post
Attachment 130897
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Lovely car !!

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Originally Posted by karlosdeville View Post
Was it this model that was nicknamed the 'Cloverleaf'?
Karl, the 5CV was known as the 'cloverleaf'. This was because it was a three seater and the seating pattern, apparently, resembled a three leaf clover. Cvette's car would be a Type-A

Aditya

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Old 30th April 2009, 15:02   #92
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I sold these two cars to Shashi Babu a dear friend of mine. He has really helped me buy cars. As beauty lies in the eyes of beholder sure you can make car to your choice. But point here is not only of authenticity but also of dating the cars. Both these cars were bought by me along with Model A Ford 1929 18 years back from Dr.Vijay Mallaya's Stable. The Citroen is 1927 and the Fiat is 1926. The original documents of the car were handed over and I have the copies of the Hardbound RC book with my name on it. It is sad to read that cars were in miserable condition when bought as I personally drove them to ramp and loaded them. These cars featured in Saturday Times Mumbai of times of India along with my other cars then and were absoloutely original in all manners. To me I am surprised Shashi Babu has done this restoration!!! They look to me like designer cars. Last year somebody drove up to my house to show a car that was premier padmini done into Mercedes 540 k. This is also similar effort. The whole character of both the cars has been changed. I deeply regret this restoration comes from Shashi Babu as I have been an ardent admirer of his past restorations and have learnt a lot from him.
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Old 30th April 2009, 15:35   #93
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I sold these two cars to Shashi Babu a dear friend of mine. He has really helped me buy cars. As beauty lies in the eyes of beholder sure you can make car to your choice. But point here is not only of authenticity but also of dating the cars. Both these cars were bought by me along with Model A Ford 1929 18 years back from Dr.Vijay Mallaya's Stable. The Citroen is 1927 and the Fiat is 1926. The original documents of the car were handed over and I have the copies of the Hardbound RC book with my name on it. It is sad to read that cars were in miserable condition when bought as I personally drove them to ramp and loaded them. These cars featured in Saturday Times Mumbai of times of India along with my other cars then and were absoloutely original in all manners. To me I am surprised Shashi Babu has done this restoration!!! They look to me like designer cars. Last year somebody drove up to my house to show a car that was premier padmini done into Mercedes 540 k. This is also similar effort. The whole character of both the cars has been changed. I deeply regret this restoration comes from Shashi Babu as I have been an ardent admirer of his past restorations and have learnt a lot from him.
Aha... the plot thickens! Could you post pictures of the cars as they were in your ownership?

Aditya
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Old 30th April 2009, 22:32   #94
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That is a very stylish car, typical French flair. See how sharply the mudguard flows compared to its contemporaries. Lovely. Was it this model that was nicknamed the 'Cloverleaf'?

Out of sheer curiousity, did the car originally come with the brass (?) accents on the doors, mudguards, wheel centres and the trademark double chevron on the radiator grille? Or is that 'restoring creative liscence' like you said?

Question is for educational purposes only!
The Brass trims on the doors, running board and radiator surround are original. The chevrons and wheel bolt covers were made and fitted additionally by us using our creative licence.
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Old 30th April 2009, 23:05   #95
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So the details from Harith panned out. Said Citroen is actually a 1927 not 1919 as claimed.

Now it is obvious why certain parties were getting a little upset about this revelation.

Some peoplr are gonna be so upset with this development !!!!!

Cheers

Wasif

Last edited by wasif : 30th April 2009 at 23:21.
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Old 1st May 2009, 14:06   #96
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Attachment 130897
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Dear Cvette ,Now this is what i call an authentic restoration , congratulation,could you add some engine pics and details ?
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Old 3rd May 2009, 23:48   #97
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Hello, back in Mumbai after spending the WHOLE night at the Delhi airport, courtsey Air India.

Since I was travelling, I could not log on and see what was happening. Now when reading the thread, it is clear that my assessment was correct. Well, assessment to some, I definitely knew what I was talking about. Just rubbing in about attitude and arrogance.:-)

I am really not sure if all can imagine what happens behind the scenes on certain topics on tbhp, not the administration but the fraternity. What has been posted is not even 5% of the activity which went on, talks among the concerned parties even on ISD, visits, conversations among enthusiasts etc. The talk of this subject has had a very far reach, it caused people to post who never did before, and information came voluntarily, I never asked anyone to post in my support, I did not need to ask, it came on its own. And I showed many folks how to get on the site, see for themselves what is happening and I am constantly persuading them to join.

About the Citroen and the Fiat, well I am sorry that this has caused so much distress, but then it is not my fault. I was simply giving the correct picture of these cars which were being misrepresented. I wonder about them winning awards at the Calcutta event, the judges got fooled. But the judges need not feel bad, it even happened at the Cartier show. Just to also confirm that the Fiat had undergone a similar transformation, please have a look at page 4 of this thread post 53 picture 7. In the background you will see the Fiat as she was, solid disc wheels, and certainly not a junk. BTW, this car originated in Indore, went through the hands of Manvendra Singh and then onwards as I had mentioned before.

The Citroen had a single stepney behind, now has two on the sides. But lets put all that aside. But the Klaxon took the cake. It is supposed to be foot operated, so what is it doing on the footboard? These were mounted in animal drawn vehicles, mostly the real horse-powered ones , so in this car you have to lean out to press the bell, if you cannot reach, then you stop the car, open the door, take out your foot, honk, bring the foot back in, then close the door and proceed. Ahem. If the horn was placed where it belongs, near the drivers foot, you would have to remove the pedals and really get a horse. This accessory does not belong here!

When I posted that the collection had reduced by two, it did not strike me about the makeover. And at that time I was talking to a collector in Calcutta, I was asking him about the history of the Renault. When I see an interesting car, I always ask about its history. That was when I heard about Mr. Hari Agarwal. Instead of taking this up and getting more details about this Mr. Agarwal, some think that I was hitting below the belt. But Mr. Agarwal had very intersting cars, including the second 8 Litre Bentley now with Pranlal. Is this not interesting? No, this, according to a distinguished gent, is hitting below the belt. I wonder if he is aware at what height belts are worn. And it is a provocation to him if I point out that cars came from relatives. Now that matters have been clarified, I see that he is silent, why? When one makes irresponsible statements, and they are proven as such, you need not hide. The provocation from his side was deliberate. But I will not whine to the mods!
I also commend Wasif for not getting drawn into his comment about the classification. We do classify everything in life, food:tasty lousy etc, the vegetable vendor: reasonable price, fresh, stale etc, but why did you want to classify car collectors? Everything is already classified, in each individuals mind, like collections, collectors, restorations, events, but my criteria are the persons and the cars. Unlike a horroscope where the entire human race is classified into 12 groups, all are individuals and interaction is with mutua respect. And it is not practical to document this. I had kept away from that thread because though I agreed with Wasif, it was of no serious consequence, may have lead to acrimony. And I feel it out of place to have brought this up as an argument in the post against me.

There are many on this forum who ask me opinions about a car which they have been offered. I do offer my bits, and never snatch a car when someone trusts me and asks for advise. That is how a young newer collector on this forum forwarded a mail to me which originated from Rajeev where this car was offered. And I did ask around a bit, and then realised the mischief being played. So I just gave correct information. But some are trying to show my previous posts as a build up to this, they were not.

The English language, when used correctly with precise words convey exactly what was meant to be said. I dare suggest that my friends should read my posts carefully again, and combined with info which came in later posts may change their opinion. One young chap only understood that I spelt Kolkatta incorrectly, but apparently he did not understand the rest of the post. Otherwise he would have been more precise in his choice of words. Now there is silence from the three, a real man would have come forward and made amends. I too could tear into their posts, but what is the point? Now their posts sound hollow on their own, without my input. That is the power of the forum and more so with correct precise language. What say gents?

I am a hobbyist, you can keep your grapes, sweet or sour, but I suggest that Mr. Predator re-reads the posts and then we can discuss his posts 69 and 71 if he still feels the need. Does not understand much and shoots from the hip.

Lastly, Kanorias are craftsmen, have restored fine cars, I have not seen anyone sitting on the floor working on his car as Mr. Kanoria does. We tend to get things done, and there is a loss in quality when getting things done rather doing it yourself. I appreciate their work, have mentioned it repeatedly much before this issue came up, but it is this issue which brought out some matters. I have received calls and mails just to tell me that we should keep on pointing out and putting up info, discuss it thoroughly for the knowledge to be gained by all. Sometime the truth does hurt, ouch!

Awaiting response with keen interest.
And I never make permanent enemies.

Cheers harit

Oh, I forgot. Post 80 of Rajiv Ghosh. Yes, the Bombay Lancia was an almost zero defect car, except for the wheels. That the car won at the Cartier event does not make the wheels authentic. The story of the wheels was sold to the judges, just like a story on the Bentley conv which also won a price. See my note on the thread on the Cartier event. You may see this is a different light. To make a last and final comment on the Lancia wheels, they are a creation, not a Dunlop accessory as claimed. Dunlop accessories had a Dunlop mark, no one could show this. And the wheels were lost in scrap in UP, I know in which city this happened and under which circumstances this happened. I also know who crafted them. Do you want to know more? Why not fit the correct type of wheels?

Last edited by Rehaan : 4th May 2009 at 20:07. Reason: 2 smileys max please.
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Old 4th May 2009, 09:20   #98
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Now that matters have been clarified, I see that he is silent, why?
Harit no where have I implied the Kanoria car is 1919 and questioned your assertions. I do however feel that the manner in which you stated them has done more harm than add value. One can always have discussions without getting personal. Whether Shashi Kanoria inherited the cars or he bought them really is irrelevant to the discussion of the Citroen.

By your reactions you amply demonstrate that you take offense when someone is critical of your tone but seem to take liberty with marginalising another publicly. That to me is a double standard my friend and I hope you can see it.

BTW Harit this is just my opinion and it really doesn't add up to much should you not take value from it. Simply discard it and move on.

I wonder if after this episode you will have the pleasure of more banter with any of the Kanorias ! I remember when I spoke to someone who was involved in the Jhabua Packard restoration I made a polite observation the car was a 32 and not a 31 as shown. The gentlemen felt it was a 31 despite my pointers. Another collector believed his Packard was a 33 when it was a 31. I pointed out but left it at that when he didn't agree. To me it was not important to make him understand or prove to him. I can still pickup the phone and chat with him while he possibly still disagrees on the car's true model year. I wonder if you can. If you cannot then my observations of your tone and the personal affront it entailed remain valid.

In anycase may I suggest we not keep at this, lets move on

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Old 4th May 2009, 09:33   #99
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WOW.

That all I can say. Guys let the truth be told and don't try to malign the teller.

There was a song we had in school and it went like this ..... Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high .....

I live my life by this and sometimes it offends me to see and read about the liberties others feel OK to take.

May the concerned parties see the light that this is a forum for dedicated enthuseasts and not for vested interests and the truth will be told without fear and consequences.

All in all a learning experience, these last few posts.

Wasif

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Old 4th May 2009, 09:39   #100
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Originally Posted by wasif View Post
WOW.

That all I can say. Guys let the truth be told and don't try to malign the teller.

There was a song we had in school and it went like this ..... Where the mind is without feart and the head is held high .....

I live my life by this and sometimes it offends me to see and read about the liberties others feel OK to take.

May the concerned parties see the light that this is a forum for dedicated enthuseasts and not for vested interests and the truth will be told without fear and consequences.

All in all a learning experience, these last few posts.

Wasif
Hear, hear....

Aditya
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Old 4th May 2009, 10:37   #101
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One young chap only understood that I spelt Kolkatta incorrectly, but apparently he did not understand the rest of the post. Otherwise he would have been more precise in his choice of words. Now there is silence from the three, a real man would have come forward and made amends. I too could tear into their posts, but what is the point? Now their posts sound hollow on their own, without my input. That is the power of the forum and more so with correct precise language. What say gents?

I am a hobbyist, you can keep your grapes, sweet or sour, but I suggest that Mr. Predator re-reads the posts and then we can discuss his posts 69 and 71 if he still feels the need. Does not understand much and shoots from the hip.
Ah, just when we thought the uproar was over and dealt with, and all was well with this thread, in comes Mr. Desai to prove my original point!

Mr Harit, I re (and re, and re)-iterate here that my attack was not about the car or Mr Kanoria at all. It was about the insulting tone that some people (of which you are undoubtedly one) have been using to other members on the vintage car forum. Other members who are viewing this thread for the "masala" value are welcome to check out the "Stutz" thread as well, where Mr. Desai's behaviour towards a certain Mr. Jatti are for all to see.

Mr. Desai, I am aware of your exploits outside TBHP, and respect you for your immense knowledge about vintage and classics. I am but a novice in front of you, one who has just started off on his passion for classics. But you were a novice too, one day. And please, do realize that this is an open forum, and the level of knowledge of all members can never be equal. The kind of hostile attitude that you people show time and again to fellow members will only help to drive out novice enthusiasts.

This is not meant as a lesson in ethics. But I suggest you take a look at the Vintage Mustang at Bhopal thread. The kind of questions I have meted out to Mustangcollectr about his car, and the way they have been answered. Anyone can have doubts about the authenticity of another man's car. But does it cost too much to be civil about it?

And please sir, it does not befit your age to get into immature comments like "A real man would have come forward and made amends". Like you, most "real" men too have family pressures outside TBHP to take care of over the weekend.

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Old 4th May 2009, 10:52   #102
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but why did you want to classify car collectors? Everything is already classified... And it is not practical to document this

I am a hobbyist....

Lastly, Kanorias are craftsmen
Contradictions galore !!!

For people (Wasif and you) who felt classifying the different perspectives from which many enter the vintage car world was redundant, you gentlemen seem to revel in doing just that !!!

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Old 4th May 2009, 11:15   #103
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We tend to get things done, and there is a loss in quality when getting things done rather doing it yourself
Not necessarily true Harit. If the person in question has the knowledge, skill and expertise then your statement is inaccurate.

Just in another thread you complimented Magneto as being the best in the business when it came to rectifying magnetos. If I understand correctly its a hobby for Magneto not his profession!

I recall at the Cartier show when speaking to him regarding his Healey, when I complimented him on the car he mentiond most of the work was done by him.

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Old 4th May 2009, 11:17   #104
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Nothing against classifications per say but they should be arrived at by personal choice not on advisement from others.
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Old 4th May 2009, 11:19   #105
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Nothing against classifications per say but they should be arrived at by personal choice not on advisement from others.
And you will appreciate I didn't take names
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