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Old 24th May 2010, 03:38   #166
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None taken.

This thread keeps coming to a halt, because everyone keeps waiting for something else to happen. It's time to bite the bullet. If the three of them decide on a consolidated list and post it up, and then if no-one else objects or has anything to add things can move on to the polling stage.

Everyone on this thread has already expressed their opinions and criteria have been set.
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Old 24th May 2010, 09:06   #167
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DKG, Wasif and Karlosdeville, could you guys get together offline (email I mean) and decide on the top ten please? Once done, please post them up.

Time to get onto stage 2 for what it's worth. Be interesting to see how the bodywork, modficiations, etc play out on the forum and translate into desirability.
Its not appropriate that just the three of us decide. The basic list seems evident, as in less than 10 cars. If you try to expand that you will have 50 awesome cars in India vying with each other. I suggest we freeze at the six cars already identified. Just a suggestion
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Old 24th May 2010, 10:46   #168
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Now going by pure value six places on the list would be taken by the two 8 Litre Bentleys, the two 540K Mercs and the two 500K Mercs.

So we need another parameter to eliminate one of each of these cars then we have an option to move on.

I suggest a poll on which ones of the above should qualify for this list to start with. To do that we would need pictures of both the Bentleys, both the 540K's and both the 500K's. There are pics of both the Bentleys and one each of the 500K and the 540K on this forum so what do we do about the other two ?
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Old 25th May 2010, 10:40   #169
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Just wanted to stop by and say, whenever you guys have decided on the poll options, PM me and I'll have one created for this thread.
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Old 30th May 2010, 15:33   #170
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So now from my understanding we need the photographs of the 6 cars short listed to proceed furthur.
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Old 7th June 2010, 16:16   #171
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Right, clearly there are no further pictures and no further inputs to the thread.

Time to move on to stage two.

Wasif has raised the issue of not including duplications (i.e. both 540s and Bentleys). In my opinion (with respect), this may not be correct. Just because they are the same model means very little. The bodies, engines, etc are different (at least for the Bentleys). These vintage cars were not mass produced the way they are now. Each car ended up being unique and therefore, each car has a distinct merit.

Given that no-one has volunteered a consolidated list, I have put together a final list. It's not going to please everyone, but no-one else is coming forward to put this list together. The vast majority of the cars have been accepted as top class across the thread.

1. 540K (Shroff) - Pictured
2. 540K (Bhogilal)
3. Delahaye 135 M - Pictured
4. Daimler Double Six
5. RR Silver Ghost Throne Car - Pictured
6. Mercedes 500 K Gondol / Bombay - Pictured
7. RR P II - Jodhpur No 27 94 RF
8. 8 Litre (Bhogilal) - Pictured
9. Bentley 8 Litre (Mckenzie) - Pictured
10. Stutz - Titus
11. Marmon

I'll wait a bit and then will PM GTO for the poll. It will be interesting to see which car is the favourite.

I would suggest letting this list be. Just because the poll is put together based on it, doesn't mean it is the end of the thread. There can always be further discussion, maybe even another poll.

Last edited by Faster789 : 7th June 2010 at 16:31.
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Old 7th June 2010, 17:24   #172
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Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
Right, clearly there are no further pictures and no further inputs to the thread.

Time to move on to stage two.

Wasif has raised the issue of not including duplications (i.e. both 540s and Bentleys). In my opinion (with respect), this may not be correct. Just because they are the same model means very little. The bodies, engines, etc are different (at least for the Bentleys). These vintage cars were not mass produced the way they are now. Each car ended up being unique and therefore, each car has a distinct merit.

Given that no-one has volunteered a consolidated list, I have put together a final list. It's not going to please everyone, but no-one else is coming forward to put this list together. The vast majority of the cars have been accepted as top class across the thread.

1. 540K (Shroff) - Pictured
2. 540K (Bhogilal)
3. Delahaye 135 M - Pictured
4. Daimler Double Six
5. RR Silver Ghost Throne Car - Pictured
6. Mercedes 500 K Gondol / Bombay - Pictured
7. RR P II - Jodhpur No 27 94 RF
8. 8 Litre (Bhogilal) - Pictured
9. Bentley 8 Litre (Mckenzie) - Pictured
10. Stutz - Titus
11. Marmon

I'll wait a bit and then will PM GTO for the poll. It will be interesting to see which car is the favourite.

I would suggest letting this list be. Just because the poll is put together based on it, doesn't mean it is the end of the thread. There can always be further discussion, maybe even another poll.
>>> Any biopics of the cars selected please?
Especially those of the Marmon ( 16?) and the 8 litre Bentleys?

Regards
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Old 7th June 2010, 19:11   #173
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Please note there are two 500K's one being the blue and black car that was at Cartier and the other is the Gondol car that is not pictured in any public manner.

I agree that you cant drop any examples of any make just become one of them is already on the list.

From purely the value point both the 540K's, both the Bentleys and both the 500K's will have to be on the list.

This makes the list longer as below.

1. 540K (Shroff) - Pictured
2. 540K (Bhogilal)
3. Delahaye 135 M - Pictured
4. Daimler Double Six
5. RR Silver Ghost Throne Car - Pictured
6. Mercedes 500 K Bombay - Pictured
7. RR P II - Jodhpur No 27 94 RF
8. 8 Litre (Bhogilal) - Pictured
9. Bentley 8 Litre (Mckenzie) - Pictured
10. Stutz - Titus
11. Marmon
12 Mercedes 500K Gondol - Not pictured.


Now to grade these cars according to value will be a very difficult proposition as some of these cars have not been seen by the majority of the people so they are in no position participate in a poll on them.

Out of the above cars the ones not pictured are the Bhogilal 540K,the Daimler Double Six , the 500K Gondol and the Marmon.

Since it might not be possible to get pictures of these then we can go to poll with the rest of the cars that are pictured here.

The pictures need to be consolidated first so that people who are interested in the pol can see what the actual cars look like.

Open to discussion on this approach
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Old 7th June 2010, 21:33   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
Please note there are two 500K's one being the blue and black car that was at Cartier and the other is the Gondol car that is not pictured in any public manner.

I agree that you cant drop any examples of any make just become one of them is already on the list.

From purely the value point both the 540K's, both the Bentleys and both the 500K's will have to be on the list.

This makes the list longer as below.

1. 540K (Shroff) - Pictured
2. 540K (Bhogilal)
3. Delahaye 135 M - Pictured
4. Daimler Double Six
5. RR Silver Ghost Throne Car - Pictured
6. Mercedes 500 K Bombay - Pictured
7. RR P II - Jodhpur No 27 94 RF
8. 8 Litre (Bhogilal) - Pictured
9. Bentley 8 Litre (Mckenzie) - Pictured
10. Stutz - Titus
11. Marmon
12 Mercedes 500K Gondol - Not pictured.


The pictures need to be consolidated first so that people who are interested in the pol can see what the actual cars look like.

Here are the pics of Car number 10 - the Stutz.This car is currently under restoration.
Attached Thumbnails
Top Ten Collectible Cars Located In India-1.jpg  

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Top Ten Collectible Cars Located In India-5.jpg  

Top Ten Collectible Cars Located In India-9.jpg  

Top Ten Collectible Cars Located In India-10.jpg  

Top Ten Collectible Cars Located In India-13.jpg  

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Old 7th June 2010, 23:16   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post

I agree that you cant drop any examples of any make just become one of them is already on the list.

From purely the value point both the 540K's, both the Bentleys and both the 500K's will have to be on the list.

This makes the list longer as below.

1. 540K (Shroff) - Pictured
2. 540K (Bhogilal)
3. Delahaye 135 M - Pictured
4. Daimler Double Six
5. RR Silver Ghost Throne Car - Pictured
6. Mercedes 500 K Bombay - Pictured
7. RR P II - Jodhpur No 27 94 RF
8. 8 Litre (Bhogilal) - Pictured
9. Bentley 8 Litre (Mckenzie) - Pictured
10. Stutz - Titus
11. Marmon
12 Mercedes 500K Gondol - Not pictured.
I think that's an excellent list Wasif. 12 instead of 10 is not an issue to me.

I think if there are no pictures, people can still vote depending on what they know. At the end of the day this is an inexact science.

I think it's time for a poll. After all, this stage is about "feeling" as opposed to any empirical value.

Last edited by Faster789 : 7th June 2010 at 23:20.
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Old 8th June 2010, 00:19   #176
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I had started this thread as a fun thing, after talking to most probably Karl. I do not think that a poll is the right thing, it will be like the music contests IDOL etc., Indian or American where the judges try to steer the votes to who is really the best but they do not always succeed. Remember Bappi Lahiri walking off a music show when a certain candidate was voted off?

I feel that the top 10 cars should be a personal choice. I would go so far as to say that if I had all the Indian money (in India and abroad), and all the cars in India were for sale, and condition were NOT to be a criteria, what would I select to buy? I would base it on personal likes, history, provenance, rarity, international appreciation (note, not on value) and come up with the following list:

01) Delahaye India's undisputed no 1 car.
02) Mercedes-Benz 540K Ravi Kumar/Shroff
03) Daimler Double Six Sanghi
04) Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost Nizam
05) Alfa Romeo 1750 Sanghi
06) Daimler Golden Indore
07) Invicta Bhogilal
08) Maybach Kolhapur
09) Bentley 8 Litre Advocatus
10) Lanchaster Alwar

The 540K at no 02 is far superior to Bhogilal's car, being an early production number. Bhogilal's car is rather ordinary.
Sanghi Daimler is complete, having provenance having been ordered for the King's visit, the other one in Kanpur is butchered and in bad shape. Gondal also has one, I am not sure if 6 or 12 cylinders, but it is sleeve valve.
The above cars are ahead of the 500K's. The red car can be seen in the book Star in India by Gautam Sen, supposed to be available with Mercedes dealers.
In this list we have a selection of sporting cars, formal Limousines and a concourse car. And the oddities which you can hardly see elsewhere in the world, Golden Daimler and Lanchester with carriage body.
I wonder that all missed the Alfa.
The Marmon is an ordinary 8 cylinder car, but rare in India. Same for the Stutz, rare in India.
And now anyone can come up with his own list. But how do you have a poll on that, I wonder.
Since most of the cars are not for sale, and I do not have all the Indian money, it still does not matter. It is still permitted to dream.

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That was a superb car and without doubt right up there. It had the left side of it's body completely written off as the result of a race down South, but an excellent piece of metal working ensured that it was fine going forward. Sold to a buyer in Japan during the boom period.Amongst others, Rossi had two other lovely cars, an Alfa (Guilletta - can't recall?)and a Lancia Flaminia Zagato.
Both superb cars, with the Lancia being the rarer and more valuable (it's got particular Indian history, being the current Bombay - Pune record holder - the road is now changed, so that record will stand forever!) but neither can quite make it into the top ten.
There are many stories about Dr. Rossi. I have personally seen that Ferrari at Apex garage in Worli being rebuilt. The race where he knocked out one headlight was in Sri Lanka. The car was completely dismantled. About the Japanese buyer, please check. There were a couple of deals that fell through. The car was in Europe at one time. Dr. Rossi had the white Alfa Guiletta for sure, that square shaped boxy one, but what was the colour of the Lancia? Was it dark blue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
I have a small collection, but these aren't in digital format unfortunately. I'll get around to it someday I guess.
When? Life is short!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
Thank you for the interest Wasif, as I get to know people better I might volunteer a little about myself.
High time. It appears that you are based in Mumbai, can exchange a lot of tales, stories, info etc.

Cheers harit
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Old 8th June 2010, 09:45   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
I do not think that a poll is the right thing
Quote:
And now anyone can come up with his own list. But how do you have a poll on that, I wonder.
Whoops, I just swung by this thread to add a poll, but wont now.

Quote:
Mercedes-Benz 540K Ravi Kumar/Shroff
Not that I'm a VCCI fan, but the 540K is a beautiful automobile!

If a consensus on the poll is reached, please use the "report this post to a Moderator" functionality and a poll will be added (if at all its needed).
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Old 8th June 2010, 10:15   #178
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Harit. Do tell more on that Alfa 1750 that you have mentioned. Is it a Zagato ??? What is so special about it ? Any pictures ??

Also would love to see pics of this "Golden Daimler"

Regarding the Sanghi Daimler, though it does have a good history, not sure if its a million plus dollar car.

Since you are not in favour of a poll might i suggest we take the list forward car by car.

Undisputedly the Delahaye is top of the pops so its gonna be the number one on any list.

Now would you consider the Ravi Kumar 540K worthy of the number two spot ? I feel in terms of pure value the Nizams RR would outsell the 540 by a huge margin.

Then we have the Bhogilal Bentley.

What would be the order for the rest of the list ????

So the list would start like this ....

1. Delahaye - Jodhpur
2. RR SIlver Ghost - Nizam
3. Mercedes 540K Shroff
4. Bentley 8 Litre - Bhogilal

Can anyone provide pics of the Marmon and the Bhogilai 540K please ?? Karl ???

Does anyone know of any thirties 6C or 8C Alfas that are still around in India ? I was under teh impression that ther was a 8C2900 around Indore
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Old 8th June 2010, 14:42   #179
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in my opinion, the bhogilal 8 litre should be omitted, at least till it gets a correct body. the other 8 litre im told has a correct replica body.
my 10 at this moment, not in any order.
1. Delage D8s, lalaji
2. Hispano Suiza H6b, Chaudhrie
3. Bugatti typ 13 Brescia, chaudhrie
4. Delahaye 135MS
5. Jaguar XK 120 alloy, Imperial hotel
6. Lagonda V12 Rapide Coupe, me
7. Bentley 4.25 litre MR Vanden Plas, Jaiswal
8. Lanchester straight 8 vanden plas, was with r.n.seth
9. Frazer-Nash B.M.W 328, Sanghi
10. Cord 812, sanghi
this of course keeps changing with my mood.
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Old 8th June 2010, 14:49   #180
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in my opinion, the bhogilal 8 litre should be omitted, at least till it gets a correct body. the other 8 litre im told has a correct replica body.
my 10 at this moment, not in any order.

5. Jaguar XK 120 alloy, Imperial hotel
.
We have more jaguar XK's in india and one of them has got the wire wheels on it as well. Just wanted to know what is more special about this car then the others ?
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