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Old 8th May 2010, 19:04   #76
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From following this forum for a some months before I joined, there appear to be about 6/7 people at the most who seem to have the knowledge (as opposed to the opinion) to nail things down - you don't need a lot more people.
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Old 9th May 2010, 09:51   #77
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Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
From following this forum for a some months before I joined, there appear to be about 6/7 people at the most who seem to have the knowledge (as opposed to the opinion) to nail things down - you don't need a lot more people.

So what course of action do you propose ?
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Old 9th May 2010, 15:43   #78
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So what course of action do you propose ?
1. Establishing and agreeing the criterion/criteria.
2. Applying that criterion/those criteria to the relevant cars in India - the cars in this thread seem to be the "cream" of what the country has to offer though some are clearly in another league from others.
3. Once agreed, put up a list with a short biodata (that doesn't compromise owner privacy or security), a couple of pictures or something to give the post a bit of colour.

In my view, the opinion expressed below is a sustainable one with criteria that can be empirically measured. Once (1) is agreed, the rest will follow easily.

Originally Posted by S.B.Jatti

Unless a car is Desirable or Collectable, no car will fetch a higher price in the international market. That is the reason, I have said International market [price] and not the price somebody has paid in India. If we go by individual preferences we will have twenty lists of the most collectable cars and there is no way of coming to a consensus on a list of ten cars which everybody agrees on.

Price at the end of the day (in the markets abroad) takes a number of the factors discussed on this thread and applies them correctly in most cases. Factors such as rarity, marque value, engine modifications, racing history, ownership history, etc. From what I can see prices in India are not stable, simply because of the friction between demand and supply and in some cases, the non-existence of accurate precedent, or of a stable median.

A simple trawl of auction house search facilities online (such as R M Auctions, Sotheby's, etc) should be able to give an accurate picture of what these cars have gone for at auction. Prices will fluctuate, so if we just take the highest price we can find that should be sufficient, indicating the top price for the car. If the spec or history of a car in India exceeds that of the details of a car sold at auction, we could hazard a guess that the India car might be more valuable.

We will never know what price cars have actually gone for privately, and that is likely to be much higher. For instances, the current auction record is $12.7 million for a 57 Testarossa, but it is known that a 250 GTO and a Bugatti Royale exceeded this price during the boom period (80's and 90's).

My two pence.
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Old 9th May 2010, 17:09   #79
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The best criteria I can think of is the desirability of the car. Its production record, that's how few made and its pedigee along with its condition should be the parameters here.

The value of the car is not what should be the sole benchmark as it is often misleading in the Indian market.

The most important car in India today as I and many would agree is the Delahaye that was present at the Cartier show.

There are certain other cars liek the Stutz that would make the list and others that are not in the public domain as of now.

There is talk of a V16 Cadillac in India which if it were to emerge would definitely make the list as would the Duesenbergs that have disapeared in India.

So now hat do you propose should be done.

What I would like to do instead is to do a list of the top cars in India by make. You take the famous makes and then isolate the best three cars that exist in India. For example Bentley would include the two 8 litres and the 6.5 litre. The Mercedes list would have the 540K's and then the 500K and so on

Last edited by wasif : 9th May 2010 at 17:16.
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Old 9th May 2010, 17:46   #80
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The value of the car is not what should be the sole benchmark as it is often misleading in the Indian market.
You've missed the point.

International prices take into account all the factors that make a car desirable or collectible.
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Old 9th May 2010, 19:06   #81
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Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
You've missed the point.

International prices take into account all the factors that make a car desirable or collectible.

I don't think so !!

What sets the value of a car in international markets ? It is the desireability and the rarity of the car that sets the price so its ultimately the car itself and its history are what will govern the price so lets go by these two alone.

Now for example a very original Model A will commanda real premium in the intrnational market but in India it would hardly make a major difference to the price.

Similarly an Adler is a rare car and would definitely find buyers at a good price abroad but try to sell one here in India and hardly anyone will come up to buy it and the person who ultimately buys it will get it for a song.

Then there are some cars that you just can't put a price on......

So lets keep the international perspective out of this and work with what is availabel locally.
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Old 9th May 2010, 22:56   #82
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Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
From following this forum for a some months before I joined, there appear to be about 6/7 people at the most who seem to have the knowledge (as opposed to the opinion) to nail things down - you don't need a lot more people.
In my opinion the 6/7 people should decide on a criteria as soon as possible so that we can have things moving.

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Originally Posted by wasif View Post
The best criteria I can think of is the desirability of the car. Its production record, that's how few made and its pedigee along with its condition should be the parameters here.


There is talk of a V16 Cadillac in India which if it were to emerge would definitely make the list as would the Duesenbergs that have disapeared in India.

What I would like to do instead is to do a list of the top cars in India by make. You take the famous makes and then isolate the best three cars that exist in India. For example Bentley would include the two 8 litres and the 6.5 litre. The Mercedes list would have the 540K's and then the 500K and so on
Well i think that if a certain car is not desirable by one person that doesn't mean it is not desirable by another. A car i may think is very desirable you may think its not worth a good price so that is one think that will have a lot of conflicts.

Cars that are no more in india and have been exported to some other country; the car that arenot in existence shouldn't be included in this list at all.We are trying to get the top ten collectible cars and if the car is not here or in existence for that matter would be pointless adding them in here.
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Old 10th May 2010, 01:23   #83
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I don't think so !!

So lets keep the international perspective out of this and work with what is availabel locally.
Hi Wasif, I'm not going to get embroiled in a pointless hacking of what's what (no disrespect meant).

I have been involved with vintage cars for a long time and I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about, but I won't toot my horn about it or try to impose my will. I'll leave it to other here to do what they'd like with the thread. I'll say again, the only perspective that is consistent is an international one (this is a fact).

All the best.
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Old 10th May 2010, 10:10   #84
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Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
Hi Wasif, I'm not going to get embroiled in a pointless hacking of what's what (no disrespect meant).

I have been involved with vintage cars for a long time and I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about, but I won't toot my horn about it or try to impose my will. I'll leave it to other here to do what they'd like with the thread. I'll say again, the only perspective that is consistent is an international one (this is a fact).

All the best.
Faster

Don't get me wrong.

I do totally agree with you that the only consistent perspective is the international one.

all I am saying is that the international perspective is seldom reflected in India, that all.

Now what next.

BTW could you detail some of yoru experiences with vinatge cars. Would love to hear from you on this. What cars do you currently own ?
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Old 10th May 2010, 14:28   #85
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I hear you Wasif. You are right that the international perspective is rarely reflected here. However, there is still no reason why we shouldn't apply the correct rate of measurement.

As for what next. I think it's just you and me on this thread. But, if I have the time, I might just sit down and try to get some of the top figures up for some of the cars on this thread. It's not too hard, but it's a bit of a pain.
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Old 10th May 2010, 15:10   #86
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Originally Posted by harit View Post
I am reproducing herewith a text which a dear friend pulled out for me last night. The source is someone from the SV/Giulietta register or connected to them.
Svz #04249
#04249 was rebodied by Zagato in 1959 according to sources, but owner Dario Sepe probably raced a few times in 1958 with a SVZ. He sold it in 1960 to an italian diplomat who took it to Bombay (IND). Photographed in the 1989 Veloce-book, it is still in India but needs complete restoration"
Conclusion:
Rebodied, but still very rare and very valuable
Not in top 10, maybe in top 20.


Quote:
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Some more details on this Alfa. Source Alfa Forums

SVA/SVZ *04249*: 1957-1958 with Mario Angioli; 1958-1959 with Silvano Bernabei, raced by "Lucky" (Battistoli?); 1959 with Clara Barbato, raced by Dario Sepe (note: Dario Sepe already raced in 1958 a Giulietta, but I do not believe it was SVZ *04249* since Bernabei was from Roma, and both Barbato/Sepe were Neapolitano; 1960 raced by Silvio Mandato (note: the book lists Sepe for the 19590927 Catania-Etna with No. 312, but Mandato was there and finished 2cl, Sepe is not listed with *04249* after this); 1961 sold to Renetto Venneli, General Manager of Alitalia Airlines India, Bombay (note: Renato Valli, Italian ambassador at Bombay, according to Giugno)

Great history but going by what is said about these cars most of them were rebodied by Zagato in the late 50's. The original SVZ by Zagato had the trademark Zagato Double Bubble style body.

Sure does qualify for the top 10 but can anyone shed more light on it ? What happened to the original engine and what got it to the state it is in now.

Some pics. The first is of the said car before it was imported to India, second and third of the car as is and the last is of a genuine Zagato Double Bubble SVZ.
Here's something from Alfa forums with what appears to be like a picture from the book -

Help needed. FWD: 1957 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Veloce SVZ Zagato - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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Old 10th May 2010, 15:18   #87
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Pity such a great car would end up like this! Wonder what actually became of teh original engine.

It appears the owners Lancia, also a great car, is in a similar condition too.

I had read those posts and its sad to note the situation is not changed. It is said the car has deteriorated even more now.

Faster.

It would not serve any purpose you spneding thime and coming up with valuations on these cars as it will all be academic.

The original purpose of this thread was to showcase the top ten cars in India thats all. We just wanted to complie a list to reflect the important cars in India, their monetary value was not the prime concern.

Last edited by wasif : 10th May 2010 at 15:20.
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Old 10th May 2010, 16:32   #88
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Well i think every one should vote for any 10 cars from the following list which i have got from the previous posts which have been contributed by many of our members. Once most people have voted then we can see which car is getting how much votes and depending on the votes the cars would get eliminated from the list and would help us make choose. Now if there is a case where there is a certain car that is not that desirable can be changed from a list but only once most people agree on it. This can be done on the basis of majority voteing.Please remember we can add more cars to this list but only the ones that are in india and exist.There is no point voteing for cars which are not in existence as collectible cars.

So here comes the list-
  • Delahaye 135 MS (Jodhpur)
  • Daimler Double Six UP
  • Daimler Golden body Indore
  • Bentley Advocatus
  • Marmon Indore
  • 540K Pune
  • Lagonda M45 (Seth)
  • RR Phantom II Continental
  • V12 Lagonda with Bhogilal
  • V12 Lagonda with Awini
  • Packard Twin Six with Mallya
  • Invicta with Bhogilal
  • 6 1/2 litre Bentley
  • 8 litre Bentley with Bhogilal
  • Bugatti with Mallya
  • 1912 RR Throne Car of the Nizam
  • 1906 Napiers of the Nizam
  • Delage D8s Figoni et Falatchi DHC (lalaji ,Delhi)
  • Pierce Arrow tourer, mallya
  • Packard tourer, Datia
  • Rolls Royce 40/50hp Boat tail tourer, Vizianagaram
  • Bentley 4.25 litre MR, Vanden Plas tourer, jaiswal, delhi
  • Lagonda M45r ex Nath, Indore?
  • Hispano Suiza H6b tourer, Chowdhry, Delhi
  • Bentley 3.5 litre? Gurney Nutting coupe, Bhigilal
  • Riley Imp/Elf? roadster, Bhogilal
  • Lanchester 40hp tourer, ex Gondal, Mallya
  • Mercedes Type K of Mallya
  • Maybach of Kolhapur
  • Cord Supercharged convertible
  • Minerva Type AL- Diljeet Titus
  • Cadillac V 16, South (don't know if it exists)
  • Lanchester Alwar (don't know if it exists)
So these are the contenders we have for the top 10 collectible cars in india.
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Old 10th May 2010, 16:46   #89
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For that you will need to first post pictures of all the cars on that list so that the people choosing are aware of what car they are choosing / voting for.

Do post the pictures first and we will go ahead from there.

I particularly want to see the pictures of the Marmon and the Cadillac V16 South !
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Old 10th May 2010, 17:21   #90
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Well i think every one should vote for any 10 cars from the following list which i have got from the previous posts which have been contributed by many of our members.
I think you'd be better of starting a separate poll hypyerlinked from this thread. If this website has that facility.

Good list.
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