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Old 26th March 2009, 15:28   #16
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DKG.

Its just that to sit and catagorise peoples passions and interests implies that one considers one to be far superior to otheres and in a position to judge others.

This is what is wrong with your trying to catagorise people. You may feel the need to do this but its your personal view and it needs to be kept personal.

Let me give you an example.

When I go to the desert I am unable to distinguish between different types of dunes as I don't have the experience. There are other whio can look at the dune and say which catagory it falls in.

This is possible for them because they fnow about these things.

By trying this with people we are implying that we have a greater knowledge of these people. This is not possible.

Thats the point here.
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Old 26th March 2009, 15:34   #17
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to sit and catagorise peoples passions and interests implies that one considers one to be far superior to otheres and in a position to judge others.
I don't see it that way. Why should an element of superiority or inferiority be brought into this? You are presupposing one perspective as better than the other. I don't, and nor have I suggested that even remotely.

People relate to things differently. Don't see any issue in documenting the fact of these differences. Why do it at all ? Not to judge people but create more awareness about differing perspectives leading to greater tolerance for one and all and increased commaraderie

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Old 26th March 2009, 17:31   #18
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DKG..are u trying to float a new Vintage Car Club in Hyderabad by any chance after this event?
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Old 26th March 2009, 22:08   #19
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DKG..are u trying to float a new Vintage Car Club in Hyderabad by any chance after this event?
why on earth would I do that??

Doc and the others so enthusiastically incorporated the drive into the program, and all of us really enjoyed the event. I have always participated in events organised by both groups and frankly don't see any reason for any more clubs or factions
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Old 28th March 2009, 14:09   #20
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By making classifications and catagorising owners of collector cars in in itself hurtfull.

Who are you and me to decide,comment and catagorise the depth of anothers passion ?

1. Politics have no palce in the classic car world. It is precisely this that creates opposing factions out of car lovers to the detrement of all concerned.
2. Nowhere in the world does this happen but only in India. Everywhere old car lovers are one big happy contented group.
3. Only here cars of merit don't often get prizes in an event compared with cars that belong to friends of the judges.
BTW why are there oposing groups of car lovers in Hyderabad and Chennai today. What is there to opose.
4. It is just the ego of certain people that creats issues where there should be none. Only in India can organising an event like the Cartier show result in anguish and heartburn to some.

.
I found it a most interesting exercise in identifying the various types of people who share in varying degrees our interest , appreciation, love and passion for Vintage and Classic Vehicles (and Hot Rods?). Very well thought out and presented and I can't think of anything to add.

Thanks DKG for starting this thread as I feel it can give a better understanding as to "Who We All Are", and how best to work together for the betterment of preserving part of our Nations Heritage.

1. I agree that Politics has no place here, but the reality is that it exists for a number of different reasons.
2. My long experience in Canada and competing in the U.S. is such that we are not much different than India.
3. I have experienced this both back home and here in Calcutta.
4. People are people and with some, their Ego is bigger than others. Again human nature is the same the world over.

Having been a judge at the Statesman Rally for many years I can readily identify the different personalities that DKG has out lined and one of my greatest pleasures is to see the pleasure of just participating in the event by owners of their family cars, some poorly maintained reflecting their incomes, but never the less having a great day in the company of other like minded collectors. Care is taken in awarding trophies to ensure that they are spread around to some of the less deserving cars in order to encourage the well being future of our heritage.

This is why I was so interested in the thread that dealt with setting up Judging Standards and my suggestion that when ever they are established, that we have two categories as the Jaguar Clubs of North America have done.
1. Championship Class - for the serious competitors.
2. Driven Class - for those who want to have a good time, pick up some feed back as how they can improve their cars.
So as many people as possible can go home happy.

The other equally big challenge is to set guide lines for the judges and to ensure that the judges are impartial. A challenge here and elsewhere.

It is great to read through the various postings and considering the various points of view. This is indeed a very, very significant process to help bind us all together. Hopefully we can speak with one voice when lobbing the government to make some long need changes to so many archaic laws.

I'm going to put this thread at the top of my list to follow.
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Old 28th March 2009, 20:34   #21
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one of my greatest pleasures is to see the pleasure of just participating in the event by owners of their family cars, some poorly maintained reflecting their incomes, but never the less having a great day in the company of other like minded collectors.
How wonderful to see someone recognise this most vital aspect of the indian vintage car scene. Most families, us included, fall in this category. Our cars most certainly are not in concours condition and fortunately we are honest with ourselves to recognise their shortcomings. Our efforts at best can be described as ensuring the good health of the car and its continued use.

You have made such a wonderful suggestion:

Quote:
my suggestion that when ever they are established, that we have two categories as the Jaguar Clubs of North America have done.
1. Championship Class - for the serious competitors.
2. Driven Class - for those who want to have a good time, pick up some feed back as how they can improve their cars.
I recognise the value of both. The first is critical for the setting of standards toward which all of us can work toward, and the second really is reality in India. Ofcourse increasingly I notice cars appearing in spectacular condition but as you rightly state its important to recognise the need for these two different but vital classes

As a matter of fact what set our recent event apart is that for the first time we had an activity (the drive) which was enjoyed by so many participants. Infact looking at the fun everyone seemed to be having it was so lovely to hear Manvendra Singh tell us, "sometimes I wish I were here as a participant having fun, instead of walking about judging cars!!"

Ultimately if more and more people have fun at these events the hobby will grow.

During the interactive session Manvendra Singh made it a point to stress the new focus worldwide on the preservation class and also emphasised the need for Indian cars to get classes at events as the Marutis and Ambassadors and Fiats are a rich heritage in themselves.

For my part I am certain that my friends here in Hyderabad who organised the event are convinced the drive is a big success and we need to do more of that.

The competition class I'm sure will continue to serve its vital purpose of setting standards. The interesting thing is John that if these two classes existed as suggested by you I wouldn't waste my time registering either of my Packards for the competition section as more than anyone else I know the shortcomings of my cars. But I would wholeheartedly attend an event knowing its the driven class as being more appropriate given their present condition.
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Old 28th March 2009, 22:15   #22
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It's either gotta be nostalgia, an eye for beauty or plain business purposes.
Regards
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Old 28th March 2009, 22:39   #23
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Default Gawkers!

With apologies - I do not fit into any one of the categories as I do not own a classic/vintage car. I am however deeply drawn to them.

I stop and stare or gawk at any old car on the road - Landmaster, Morris Minor, Fiats etc.. I even gawk at old cars slowly rotting and rusting away in some forlorn corner. I am sure that there are many more like me. We are a little like a child who looks at an aeroplane in the sky - with wonder and longing. So may I suggest a 9th category - "Gawkers".

I love these old cars for their sheer beauty, they also remind us of a bygone era, more gentle and graceful.

Cheers,
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Old 28th March 2009, 23:22   #24
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Hi ravveendra,
Welcome to the club anyways!

That reminds me- what about the pics. of your dad's old Herald?? Did you find any?
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Old 29th March 2009, 05:16   #25
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I forgot a few important points.

This is why I was so interested in the thread that dealt with setting up Judging Standards and my suggestion that when ever they are established, that we have THREE categories as the Jaguar Clubs of North America have done.

1. Championship Class - for the serious competitors.
2. Driven Class - for those who want to have a good time, pick up some feed back as how they can improve their cars.
3. Preservation Class - recognizing the importance of those cars that are in original condition. Any Jaguar 20 years or older is eligible for this Class. The Statesman Rally has a trophy for the most "Original Car". Anyone can bring a car back to life, but original is original and like Virginity, once lost it can never be Restored!

In 2002 our 1968 Jaguar MK11-340 placed 2nd in Preservation Class 18 with 99.78 pts and 5th in Championship Class 9 with 99.54 pts in the JCNA (Jaguar Clubs of North America) Concours Competition which was held by over 40 Jaguar Clubs throughout Canada & the US.

The other equally big challenge is to set guide lines for the judges and to ensure that the judges are impartial. A challenge here and elsewhere.

I think the JCNA devotes almost as much effort on preparing judges as they do creating the rules. For those interested in these issues, google "jcna" and you find another exceptional website.

I'm going to put this thread at the top of my list to follow.[/quote]
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Old 29th March 2009, 11:50   #26
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1. Championship Class - for the serious competitors.
2. Driven Class - for those who want to have a good time, pick up some feed back as how they can improve their cars.
3. Preservation Class - recognizing the importance of those cars that are in original condition.
John we'll try to incorporate this into our next event. Ideally in all categories there should be a Indian cars class too (cars mfg or assembled in India) as these cars deserve special recognition. Also to be included are the Jeeps.

Thanks for the suggestion and please let us know if you feel this can be finetuned further to make it more appropriate for the indian setting.

I'd like also to request you to throw more light on the preservation class. Please could you elaborate on when the car in this category begins to be compromised. That is, what kind of restoration work if any is permitted in this class etc

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Old 30th March 2009, 12:24   #27
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John we'll try to incorporate this into our next event. Ideally in all categories there should be a Indian cars class too (cars mfg or assembled in India) as these cars deserve special recognition. Also to be included are the Jeeps.

Thanks for the suggestion and please let us know if you feel this can be finetuned further to make it more appropriate for the indian setting.

I'd like also to request you to throw more light on the preservation class. Please could you elaborate on when the car in this category begins to be compromised. That is, what kind of restoration work if any is permitted in this class etc
1. Things seem to be moving in the right direction and will take some time to put all the pieces together. A little like restoring a car, first to have the vision and then the work starts.

2. Re more info on Preservation Class this will be a much more challenging as it will require judges who have a very good knowledge of so many different cars and how they came off the assembly line. With the JCNA we were dealing with only one make with a lot of experienced judges.

Having said that, minor changes in finishes and options are so subtile that on our car a number of things were incorrectly judged and I was able to check with the Jaguar Heritage Trust to confirm when some of the variances occurred and armed with this information was able to address any questions raised.

We were fortunate in having purchased the car from the original owner with all the maintenance records and original bill of sale being given to us by the dealership who had sold the car. Our car has been used by the JCNA as a bench mark for originality.

I would suggest you check out the JCNA website where you should find information on the criteria for judging for Presentation Class.

I hope this information will be of help and please keep me in the loop.

It's a great undertaking that you have initiated and will have an important impact on the future and development of preserving the automotive heritage of India and encouraging greater awareness and participation of this great passion.

What ever I can do to be of assistance just let me know.
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Old 4th April 2009, 17:12   #28
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Well 1st let me tell you a Story.
Almost 17 years ago , I was 5,it was my winter holidays ,early January.My dad woke me up at 5'oclock in the morning and said let me take you to a place.I was pissed off but he drgged me anyway.I slept on my to the place and when we reached there I was grumbling at my dad.
We were at the The Statesman Vintage and Classic Car Rally.I was awestruck.I had never seen so many beautiful THINGS together.And since then I fell in love with Vintage & Classic cars.I can never thank My dad Enough for taking me there that day.And Since then I have been visiting the RAlly every year.
Vintage cars have a certain aura around them.Vinatge cars are the most beautiful cars that man has ever created.If I had the money then I would be buying cars by the Ship-Load.
To me a Vintage car is a Rolling piece of ART.There is nothing more beautiful than a vintage car.They mesmerize me.When I go to the Rally I am on Cloud nine.I honour and respect Vintage car.They have so much grace and presence.Even something as small as an Austin 7 attracts attention,let alone a Beautiful Coach-Built pre-war Rolls Royce.
I am the kind of person who would never let a Vintage car gather dust in a Garage.BUt would love to drive it everyday.Not to flaunt my money (though at times that is the IDEA) but to feel that FEELING you have when you drive one.You are so involved when you drive one.Nothing to bother you like in modern cars.
Vintage cars are a Love Affair for me.
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Old 5th April 2009, 12:20   #29
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Hey there Sunil.

Nice to see you back in our fold and posting again.

Wasif
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Old 6th April 2009, 14:36   #30
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Hey there Sunil.

Nice to see you back in our fold and posting again.

Wasif

Thank You.
Its a pleasure to be back here.I love it here.
One more thing I am really amazed that India does have some amazing Classics that I didnt expect.Hopefully someday if I make it big I can start my Vinateg car collection here itself instead of going off to Europe.
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