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Old 25th February 2010, 11:18   #136
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Cool reminds of my days in the US/Indonesia and HK things were more straightforward less filmy (bollywood style)/ Cloak and dagger old school approach in which things are being done in India. Enjoy it when time comes to live in India on a more extended basis perhaps you will be out there to buy

I am sure 500sl are a dime a dozen out there and you WILL get a similar one at AED 30K I think we are not different the difference between his quote and yours is 40%!?
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Old 25th February 2010, 11:48   #137
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Originally Posted by v12 View Post
There is more to a vintage / classic car than just the car and its parts.
Yes, but not what you are getting at.

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There is some sort of an emotional attachment or a sentimental value attached to it. Some may realise it, and some may not. When you have owned a car for a very long time, you tend to get attached to it.
Only to vintage cars? Any car for that matter. My Dad still has the Omni he is very attached to. Its 20+ years now. And no he is not selling it, he leaves his 2009 ANHC out in the sun but the Omni stays in the garage.

Emotions for any car owned is the same.

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And this costs a lot of money.
You have figures how much it costs for the upkeep of a Moris Minor for one year?

I do. We had a Beetle. And I will tell you it costs less them what my Bolero costs to maintian in a year. Please consider that I cant use a Beetle the way i use my Bolero. And that is due to various factors and least about them is spares and parts availability. And more of safety and convenience.

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an original and immaculate condition will definitely command a high value when he sells it.
Emotions and sentiments are being valued here or just the car?

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The value could be exhorbitant, but that depends on how close the owner holds this car to his heart.
So the amount can be any imaginary value that can be come up with. Again are we valuing the sentiments and emotions attached to the car? Your post is not clear as to why exhorbitant?

When you are selling something its a commodity. You dont sell your kids. And I will come to this later.

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Its something that the buyer may not understand since he is only looking to buy a car and not a piece of history of someones life.
Please anyone buying a vintage does not look at it only as any other car. Rest assured on that. You are clearly off the mark here. Except hoarders and people trying to make a quick buck - your sentiment and emotion stuff does not work here. I dont know of any one here who are here to buy a vintage just like any other car.

Please do not paint the buyer as a cheapstake looking for a cheap deal and the seller the only true vintage lover. We had discussed this earlier in this topic. You should read the earlier pages for that.

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The same goes with a restored car. Different restorers charge differently for same car.
Restorers who are not owners, Restorer who are owners are two different set of people. Guess who will charge you the higher value?

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There could be a Dodge Kingsway available for 5 lakhs since it is an original unrestored car in good condition. On the other hand there could be a fully restored original Dodge Kingsway available for 11 lakhs. Maybe the price is high cos the owner had to source all the spares from abroad which has increased the restoration cost and hence the high resale value.
Now you seem to get somewhere but you have not included emotions and sentiments here like above? So 11 lakhs for what went into it is good and if I know why 11 lakhs then I am ready to pay.

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There are a lot of examples I can give on this topic. And its not about a vintage car/bike. It even applies to cars/bikes of the 90's which have been out of production.
You are off the mark here. No this valuation thread is not for any modern cars. Try selling a first gen maruti 800 saying this is my first car, i got home my first baby in this car so I quote 10 lakhs. Will it sell? Keep the modern cars out.

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Look at the RX100 for instance.
Bad example. How many RX100s were manufactured against say a Sunbean S7?

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Take a look at the Sothbeys / Christeys auctions or even the auctions at Pebbles Beach and you will be surprised at the prices these cars sell at.
You are comparing models put up for sale there with what is being valued for India? What is the point?

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All I am trying to say is that we are not adding any value to this thread by just lamenting about the same thing everytime a car is put under the hammer.
I agree here.

And now to come to the selling your passion and emotions. No one who has any attachment to the car or bike they own will sell it for an exhorbitant price because they are attached to it. Those who do i am not too sure about their passion and emotions being replaced by a truckload of money.

Will give 2 examples one myself and other Karlosdeville.

I saw somewhere that karlos has a big collection and quite pleasantly most of them have been given to him.

Me, I got a split screen bus for nothing. Why? because the owner wanted it to be given to someone with passion and sentiments he shared. He had a couple of agents knocking on his door every month asking him to sell it for exhorbitant price like you mention.

Another Bay window, the owner charged me rs 8k? For what? to renew the insurance and FC he showed me the bills.

That is passion and sentiments and not what is put up for sale.

Where this passion and sentiments are quoted for huge sums is when the vehicles pass on to relatives and others who dont understand it and only look at the value.

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Originally Posted by wasif View Post
Thanks V12 it is good to see someone else also shares my opinions on this.
I have deep respect for you but the above statement is quite worrying. Maybe you didnt understand what he meant Or maybe I didnt.

I took the pains of writing the above only because of your above statement.

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It would be a good idea to investigate why the seller is asking for the price he wants instead of just lampooning him for what we feel is a high price...maybe there are reasons for this price.
EXACTLY. This is what we have been harping about all the time. But I am sure you are aware of the take it or leave it scenario prevalent now. Because someone somewhere will pay that amount no questions asked like you say below:

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And then someone might come along who can see the value and wants a car like that and is willing to pay the premium and then you have a sale.
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Originally Posted by canonball View Post
a new and larger speculative element which has entered the market and everyone seems to be conviniently riding it!
Its now a business. A dirty one at that. We all are aware of such incidents.

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a very neat MG B

There is also a neat 500SL
Looking forward to some pictures. The restoration jobs there are so brilliant.

Last edited by Spitfire : 25th February 2010 at 11:51.
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Old 25th February 2010, 12:37   #138
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Phew at last you are bang on this Spitfire. I am in all this to bring/attract a community that will ensure OBJECTIVITY and not cheap deals or expensive deals. Infact I would say lets shoot for fair deals. But that seems to not go down well with some if not it is their problem not mine. I have been going around getting facts and people are free to bring facts to the table and not emmotions, feeling whims, fancies, hurting etc.

I find these explitives by V12 very funny "costs a lot of money" like we were in a cave until now = In my book it is like talking down and teaching lets get some facts out here V12

Last edited by canonball : 25th February 2010 at 12:42.
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Old 25th February 2010, 14:11   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canonball View Post
Cool reminds of my days in the US/Indonesia and HK things were more straightforward less filmy (bollywood style)/ Cloak and dagger old school approach in which things are being done in India. Enjoy it when time comes to live in India on a more extended basis perhaps you will be out there to buy

I am sure 500sl are a dime a dozen out there and you WILL get a similar one at AED 30K I think we are not different the difference between his quote and yours is 40%!?
The difference is that I respect his right to ask for what he is and as per my valuation itis worth to me what I have offered.

If the price quoted by the seller is unreasonable lamenting abou i will not change the fact. You can however make a counter offr and see wher it gets you.

That is what I have been trying to get across here. I don't condone high prices or side with a seller or look down on a buyer but this constant complaining on prices ...what does it get you in the end.
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Old 25th February 2010, 17:24   #140
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Originally Posted by wasif View Post
The difference is that I respect his right to ask for what he is and as per my valuation itis worth to me what I have offered.

If the price quoted by the seller is unreasonable lamenting abou i will not change the fact. You can however make a counter offr and see wher it gets you.

That is what I have been trying to get across here. I don't condone high prices or side with a seller or look down on a buyer but this constant complaining on prices ...what does it get you in the end.
wasif,
I have been keeping out of this discussion for a short period ,because I thought we had apparently agreed to the fact that once we have understood that we are going parallelly we will stop arguing with each other as we know "'ARGUMENT never ever reaches an AGREEMENT''''

But you are again accusing that people like me are "lamenting about high prices". let me tell you for one more time I am not lamenting about "high prices ""but on the contrary about ''unreasonable prices"" To give an example,if some one quotes Rs3 lakhs for a MK1 ambassador I would say it is Unreasonable look at the Mini cooper,I never said a word about its quote of 8 lakhs although it is definitely high.will somebody dare to quote 75000 to a owner demanding 3lakhs for his ambassador,there is no scope of negotiation even .'

Another point somebody raised here is that the ""seller of the kingsway(11lakhs) must have imported parts, done costly restoration,etc, "" has he checked with the owner,did he tell you all this ,I am sure this is just an assumption to justify the sellers unreasonable quote. this is where I have a strong plaint that these guys are definitely supporting the sellers,
why dont you look at the plight of the genuine enthusiast who may have just entered the field .also is it that is there a feeling that this hobby should only be the personal fiefdom of the "Rich, Famous and the Corrupt""

Last edited by ajay99 : 25th February 2010 at 17:40. Reason: w
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Old 25th February 2010, 19:31   #141
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Ajay
Seeing how the classic car fad has really caught on in India now anyone whith old iron will ask for the sky, thats a given and will not change however much you try to educate the people.

There are however always avenues for negotiation on every car, no price is fixed, so if the car is really good and you plan on offering a fair price then it can work but what is pointing out that the price is high or unreasonabl get you ? We all know it is unreasonable !

We all know the prices are most of the time out of context to the car and its condition, negotiation is the way to go in all cases.

There are interesting techniques succesfully employed by guys who buy cars and they work. suggest you look into these techinques

Last edited by wasif : 25th February 2010 at 19:33.
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Old 25th February 2010, 20:21   #142
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Originally Posted by wasif View Post
Ajay
Seeing how the classic car fad has really caught on in India now anyone whith old iron will ask for the sky, thats a given and will not change however much you try to educate the people.

There are however always avenues for negotiation on every car, no price is fixed, so if the car is really good and you plan on offering a fair price then it can work but what is pointing out that the price is high or unreasonabl get you ? We all know it is unreasonable !

We all know the prices are most of the time out of context to the car and its condition, negotiation is the way to go in all cases.

There are interesting techniques succesfully employed by guys who buy cars and they work. suggest you look into these techinques
I am happy at least now you have accepted that the price quoted is unreasonable.
now what is the advantage of pointing out it is "unreasonable"' -give out a message and make other prospective buyers wary of this sellers quote .It sure has its advantages
why dont you make the techniques public,let us all know if you have some unique ones..
last but not the least, just today only I knew the exact background reason why you tend to favour the "buyers"" agenda.... and it is ok also

Last edited by ajay99 : 25th February 2010 at 20:22. Reason: c
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Old 25th February 2010, 20:54   #143
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Ajay, I bought a motorcycle about 5 years ago. At that time the motorcycle was approx 50 years old. Exactly a year ago someone bought a simliar model for three times what I paid. . I put it down to inflation and the fact that the value of my bike has appreciated. But within a month of buying the bike the new owner of this similar bike was asking twice what he paid for. He said thats the value of it now. Someone once told me that it's better to invest in vintages than to put your money in the bank. I was a happy man cos I thought the value had appreciated some more.
Now the strange this is that this new owner is offering me less for my bike than what he paid for his one year ago. But there is no animosity between us even though he is being unreasonable. and to quote Pappa's famous line "we are all friends"

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Old 26th February 2010, 02:39   #144
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I dont think you got my point guys. The Kingsway point was just an example. I too am against unreasonable prices quoted by vintage sellers. The prices maybe high, but if unreasonable - the seller needs to put forth the reason for it. Vintage / Classic cars prices go up and become unreasonable when sellers use this as a business. I have mentioned this elsewhere on the forum too, dont remember where though.

I do not own a vintage / classic car and hence am not in the correct position to talk on maintenance costs. Would leave that to people who own these cars. So would rest my case here.

P.S : These are not my expelitives canonball. Just my opinion.
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Old 26th February 2010, 11:27   #145
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Originally Posted by deutscheafrikar View Post
Ajay, I bought a motorcycle about 5 years ago. At that time the motorcycle was approx 50 years old. Exactly a year ago someone bought a simliar model for three times what I paid. . I put it down to inflation and the fact that the value of my bike has appreciated. But within a month of buying the bike the new owner of this similar bike was asking twice what he paid for. He said thats the value of it now. Someone once told me that it's better to invest in vintages than to put your money in the bank. I was a happy man cos I thought the value had appreciated some more.
Now the strange this is that this new owner is offering me less for my bike than what he paid for his one year ago. But there is no animosity between us even though he is being unreasonable. and to quote Pappa's famous line "we are all friends"
from what you have mentioned , I think the guy whom you are talking about seems like he is out to make a fast buck in the vintage arena and is not in this as a hobby/passion,
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Old 26th February 2010, 12:15   #146
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Wasuf why not share them here my friend it is why we are all here afterall aren't we?! Not via PM's or side discussions but here as I think all here are WORTHY enough to know and others who visit can also cross reference in the future. I think someone like you can infact put down scenarios/types of negotiations and categories the whole thing like a reference guide. I am sure you know what I am talking about having lived overseas with that international perspective and relatively more structured way things are done outside so SHARE the wisdom and don't go silent convinently

Dectsch your example sounds like we are still in the caves and keep blaming the government for all that goes wrong when we ourselves are part of the problem - not meant directly at you but the state of mind we are part of. Everything is interconnected and if we ourselves don't become the solution how do you ever expect us to move ahead. The rate at which the country is moving and Rollingart talks about all them billioniers being produced sounds all great but this stuff too needs to be fixed and no one can create islands when there is no sea around them to do so We already have RTI so lets have it here as well as it seems even the gov't may overtake our state of mind. By the way I have no animosity towards any seller I think pricing needs to responsible from both seller/buyer.

Tbhp is like a community and in a healthy community there is no such thing as survival of the fitest (typical Indian CRAB mentality) but helping all as long as it is not for commercial exploitation.

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Old 26th February 2010, 12:59   #147
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For some sensible pricing check these:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vintag...ml#post1753889

Now what about the 11 lakhs car?

Last edited by Spitfire : 26th February 2010 at 13:01.
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Old 26th February 2010, 13:03   #148
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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
For some sensible pricing check these:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vintag...ml#post1753889

Now what about the 11 lakhs car?
actually spitfire ,i was planning to post this link here when u beat me by few seconds..
yes this pricing is where one can talk about negotiating.
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Old 26th February 2010, 17:13   #149
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please see this ad for an 1969 LHD beetle sedan
eBay India: classic 1969 volkswagen beetle 1500cc (item 320492131033 end time 24-Mar-2010 20:06:04 IST)
another typical example of an Exorbitant quote
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Old 26th February 2010, 22:03   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
For some sensible pricing check these:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vintag...ml#post1753889

Now what about the 11 lakhs car?
The price is correct dude. please fill in the missing " . "

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please see this ad for an 1969 LHD beetle sedan
eBay India: classic 1969 volkswagen beetle 1500cc (item 320492131033 end time 24-Mar-2010 20:06:04 IST)
another typical example of an Exorbitant quote
The advertiser does not know what he's advertising says 1500cc but 1969 never saw the 1500cc engine on the Bugs.

That is a 1969 VW, with

1)1973-74 front fenders,
2)Air filter from the "Thing".
3)CDI Distributer form the Contessa,
4)Rear decklid from the Super Beetle
5)3 air-vents on the dash is confusing, but 69 bugs had them
6)Headrests mismatch with the seats.

Car is well restored, the paint job speaks volumes, well detailed.

But certainly not a ONE PIECE Car. And that price is.

Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 26th February 2010 at 22:06.
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