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Old 27th July 2009, 16:43   #31
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Reminds me of South African whites convincing each other that there is no other way that the White South African way. As seen on the Mandela movie recently shown on cable
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Old 27th July 2009, 21:20   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
We buy it for ourselves.
We dont care what the moneyed collector thinks about our ride.
We will look at restoration as long as our wallets can manage.
We are not looking at making money out of it.
We are not the second hand car dealer down the road.
I restore, i drive it and i spend on it. I am ok with that.
Couldn't have said it better myself!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Whenever it comes to classics / vintages the prices are always and "ALWAYS" subjective.
It is between the buyer and the seller to decide weather the price is too high or low.
Absolutely correct.
I rest my case.
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Old 23rd September 2009, 11:28   #33
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Originally Posted by the mole View Post
A word of caution: pre 70's mercs are increasingly becoming very hard to restore. Non avalibilty of parts locally and also very very expensive parts from abroad is probably the reason people restoring and selling Mercs pre 60's are starting to quote prices which seem over the top.

Bear in mind if the car is original, and has everything on it, the owner has spent a bomb on the restoration. I know from experience.

So if you are looking to start on a classic look for something easier.

Here is a sample list of prices for some of the parts on a Ponton.

Set of tyres origina size whitewall: 75k
Engine overhaul: 100K
Suspension overhaul: 50K
Rubber Kit: 100K
Original Hub cap 5k each
original Cosmetics: 30K atleast
Headlight set 20K atleast

I can go on and on.

But the bright part is everthing is available brand new from mercedes so if you have deep pockets, Best of Luck.
The Mole hit the nail on the head.
First of all, please appreciate that every owner can quote a price for his car as he thinks fit. And every seller can accept to pay what he thinks it is worth. If there is a meeting of minds, then a deal may go through. BUT, I find it unfortunate that jokes are being made about the expected price of a car. And prices including offers being discussed so openly. We have a PM fascility for this. Does anyone think what Mr. Singh will think about the bunch moking him?

Let me tell of a personal experience. There was a 1965 Chevy excellently restored. A price was quoted, a friend wanted to buy. I do often go above "market prices" and told himthat maximum I would pay 70% of the quoted price. Anyway, he took me there, we saw the car and he paid the asking price without batting an eyelid. The car was restored wonderfully, many imported parts were used. Then the car was shown to a restorer. He commented that the job was so well done, such good quality materials were used, it must have been a distress sale!!!

I strongly suggest that figures not be quoted, please use PM's. If you want to give indications, do it in a relative or vague manner. Some sellers not connected to this forum will not like their info coming on the posts like this. And this forum will lose in terms of information about cars available.

Mr. Jatti had put up some info about cars for sale. If he wanted to, he could have mentioned the price. I feel that those who went for the cars should not have put prices on the forum. The post could have been like something.....we went to see.....and continue discussing prices in PM's.

This is my opinion. I am sure that if I were to put all info on car pricing on the net, peopel will stop talking to me about that. We do have some responsibility to priviliged info. Please think about this.

Cheers harit

Last edited by harit : 23rd September 2009 at 11:35.
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Old 23rd September 2009, 11:41   #34
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Harit I believe prices should be transparent and open we live in a open world today and things are only going to be more open henceforth. So I firmly belive prices can be discussed in an open forum the part about joking or mocking is an individual choice for which we have moderators. We live in an open society and forums like these are meant to be platforms for the same. I am a member on many other inetrnational and national forums and this is exactly how members interact. I completely don't appreciate your message here suggesting people take crucial elements of an open forum into the private domain, this is not the phone company my friend or anyones private network to control free information flow!!

I think all prices and transactions should be bought into the open and let the reader deside because without this wealth of information they cannot make an INFORMED judgement.

I completely agree with you on insulting people but insulting their price expectations is free choice next you well tell people how to think and what to say think about it and no offense but you always get touchy on prices and any discussion around them. Always remember markets always find their own balance no one can fix them in any way up or down cheers

Last edited by canonball : 23rd September 2009 at 11:49.
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Old 23rd September 2009, 12:04   #35
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Gentlemen, It appears that inadvertently I seem to have stirred up the hornets nest here. And in the interest of keeping the thread to what it should be discussing about, I'll clarify the following :-

1. I have always had this fancy of owning a classic. People (such as myself) who have little or NO knowledge of automobiles, but yet have a keen interest in them (its not a crime, its like a lot of people have an interest in planes, but don't really fly or maintain them...right), look forward to people like harit, the mole, V-16, ajay99, etc with a sense of reverence to be guided in the right direction. We neither have the ability or the age (left) to learn this stuff.

2. Prices - I thought that this would work collaboratively and a process that would be transparent, however, I now realize that (like everywhere else) there are unwritten rules of the trade (that I now need to understand and respect). Mea Culpa....

3. A price once quoted is usually public information unless otherwise specified. I did not have the know how or for that matter the friends here that I could reach out to who would help me examine if what I was being quoted was correct or not, I felt that what I did was the best approach (at that point in time). I may not be received well for it, but nontheless, in the absence of any other means, I chose what I felt was best at that time.

(points 2 & 3 are not contradictory but collaborative, 2 is what i have learnt now and 3 is what i did then).

I hope this clarifies the approach I took... (Brickbats and bouquets are welcome, however, let's use the PM this time around)
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Old 23rd September 2009, 12:09   #36
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Coming back to this thread as we recently and quite happily made a very clean deal for my friend's classic.

His question was how much should i quote to a prospective buyer. His reason to sell is lack of space and wants to give a better home for his prized possession then what he is managing right now. I won't get into the details of the said car. He wanted to sell it through word of mouth only.

Its understood that all the paper work is in place and duly updated with tax and other charges paid as required.

I turned to this forum for some tips. The usual what the owner thinks he should get for his car/bike to the suggestions regarding whether the buyer deems the price right or not.

The other factors i pondered upon are; how rare or common the car is and how many are available right now. What's the market looking like and what would be a price that at the end of the day have a happy seller and buyer.

I turned back to the "sale" of a couple of VW microbuses and a motorcycle. Since i am stickler to keeping tabs on every cost made in restoring a vehicle i have the figures ready with me. I add these up + the cost of what i bought the car/bike for + labor cost. All this available on a excel sheet. I showed the figures to the prospective buyers, they understand what's gone into the vehicle in terms of actual restoration with even the dates mentioned. This creates a sense of trust in the buyer that what he is going to pay for has been through a well documented restoration - of at least the parts and labor gone into it.

The capability of the restorer and the labor carried out is for the buyer to evaluate looking at the restored car/bike.

This amounts to somehting like a service history that we fall back on when buying a preowned car/bike.

Of course the intangible bits like taking time off, travelling to and fro for parts and the overall effort required in sourcing the parts need not be accounted for - i prefer to saying that passion should not be valued.

I suggested the same to my friend and he surprisingly too had the receipts and minor details of the critical or costly spares purchased. He also had some rough calculations regarding labor charges listed for each visit to the garage since he acquired the car. This we then added up. Looked at prices being quoted all over India for a similiar car and came to a figure that my friend was comfortable with.

The first buyer that came along picked up the car. Absolutely no negotiations. He was so convinced that he went to an ATM and paid 25% of the value of the car right away.

The value we came at was almost 25% lesser then a similiar car being sold in Pune (hint hint )

This is a very amateurish way at looking into buying and selling classic cars. Also please understand that this particular car did not confirm to concourse standards but was a complete car and well maintained. Some liberities were taken in parts being swapped with an earlier model or a later model depending upon the availability of the particular parts. This was documented too and was avilable to the buyer.

Sorry for the long post but i thought it would be of help to some folks who are new to this Classic Cars scene.

Last edited by Spitfire : 23rd September 2009 at 12:12.
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Old 23rd September 2009, 12:40   #37
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Now we are bringing some science into this thanks to folks like spitfire this is a very very good way of going about pricing by the above you have shown that if one gets down to breaking things down you will get a good outcome instead of gropping in the dark and going over or underbroad. This is education people we must imbibe it or we will always remain in caves
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Old 23rd September 2009, 14:07   #38
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Interesting observation about market forces coming into play and determining the price dear Canonball. You seem to think old acrs are bought and sold on the same principals as say stocks and bonds with market conditions influensing the price.

It may be true in a western country where there are no import / export restrictions that the market forces will eventually determine the price but how can you assume this will ever happen in a protected economy in India where ther is no scope for supply to increas and match demand so where is the question of market forces influencing the price.

Be aware in India specially in terms of old cars passion will always rule when it comes to price. Its basically a sellers market and they are fee to ask for what they feel is their cars worth. Now the buyer has a choice to either pay what is asked or make a counter offer and negotiate or go away and look for another car.

Whatever you or anyone says here will not impact on what the seller wants for his car. If the price quoted is high the only thing that will happen is that the car won't sell thats all so if someone really wants it then that person will have to pay the price like certain collectors on this forum are know to have done.
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Old 23rd September 2009, 14:50   #39
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So be it Dear Wasif. It still dosen't change the fact that this is not a secret society and info and opinions can freely move and be shared. I wonder why it is you and other collectors are so vociferous about this out here if your theory is so solid you don't need to defend it or be defensive or try and thwart any mention or direction towards price transparency and tell people the do's and don'ts much like brainwashing Sir or even defend your supply demand theory in India etc. Because you are right right?? So stay cool and calm in your position and lets please not try and tell or suggest what we can and can't do within civil limits. I think Harit's silence is his strenght. Cheers

Last edited by canonball : 23rd September 2009 at 14:51.
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Old 23rd September 2009, 14:54   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canonball View Post
Harit I believe prices should be transparent and open we live in a open world today and things are only going to be more open henceforth. So I firmly belive prices can be discussed in an open forum the part about joking or mocking is an individual choice for which we have moderators. We live in an open society and forums like these are meant to be platforms for the same. I am a member on many other inetrnational and national forums and this is exactly how members interact. I completely don't appreciate your message here suggesting people take crucial elements of an open forum into the private domain, this is not the phone company my friend or anyones private network to control free information flow!!

I think all prices and transactions should be bought into the open and let the reader deside because without this wealth of information they cannot make an INFORMED judgement.

I completely agree with you on insulting people but insulting their price expectations is free choice next you well tell people how to think and what to say think about it and no offense but you always get touchy on prices and any discussion around them. Always remember markets always find their own balance no one can fix them in any way up or down cheers
with all that cannonball has said here. I also agree with mole regarding the restoration costs if it has been really done with NOS german parts .But that still doesnt justify the asking prices of many cars which have been put up for sale.
also one general thing I have noticed is that most of those who have many classic cars in their stable usually (of course there are exceptions ) dislike any body pooh poohing the astronomical/ludicrous prices quoted!!
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Old 23rd September 2009, 15:27   #41
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Originally Posted by canonball View Post
So be it Dear Wasif. It still dosen't change the fact that this is not a secret society and info and opinions can freely move and be shared. I wonder why it is you and other collectors are so vociferous about this out here if your theory is so solid you don't need to defend it or be defensive or try and thwart any mention or direction towards price transparency and tell people the do's and don'ts much like brainwashing Sir or even defend your supply demand theory in India etc. Because you are right right?? So stay cool and calm in your position and lets please not try and tell or suggest what we can and can't do within civil limits. I think Harit's silence is his strenght. Cheers
Sir.

Nobody is trying to tell you what to do or not to do, last time I checked it was a free country where one could do as one wants.

Info and opinions do need to move around freely but it pains me to hear guys crying on this forum regarding what they feel is high prices being asked for by the sellers. Some have gone to the extent of calling the seller a fool and trying to educate them about what they should ask for their cars.

The point is that sellers are free to ask for whatever they seem fit so one needs to respect that. One is free to make a counter offer or go shopping elsewhere but it is not right to critisize the seller on this, its after all his property.

Now coming to your requests that I keep silent is kind of a contradiction coming from one who is encouraging free flow of information and opinions. Do I not then have the option to share mine with you all or is it by invitation only ?

I have no monetarty or any other interests in the old car market in India except for a deep and genuine passion for these cars and having taken the trouble to educate myself on these and am aware of how this market operates.

So do please go on discussing prices and strive to create transparency in this market. This itself is a contradiction in terms as there is usualy an element of undisclosed funds in this equasion that both the buyer and seller would not appreciate being discussed publicly.
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Old 23rd September 2009, 15:38   #42
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Now come on Wasif so the news papers should stop printing real estate prices they keep doing in the property times? I don't see builders complaining about it I think your going OT. It is upto the buyer/seller etc to disclose what they see. I am passionate as well but I think many sellers and buyer have very old school perceptions which need to be real. There were times nobody gave a rat's *~# about old cars now it is the other extreme mind you at the rate at which cars are flowing on our roads we will be like the west sooner than later.

I also believe that it is this kind of cloak and dagger attitude being main reason we are where we are as a country Please see the Tata Tea ads my friend and have some tea.

Last edited by canonball : 23rd September 2009 at 15:40.
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Old 23rd September 2009, 16:12   #43
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Boss you are not getting the point. Do the developers publish the full price in the papers these days mentioning how much is to be paid in cash and how much by check.

I don't think so.

As I said earlier there is nobody stopping you all from discussing prices but just that calling a seller a fool for pricing his car as he pleases is not cricket no is trying to educate him on the "right" price to quote.

Another thing let me correct you on is that there was never a time nor will there ever be when nobady cared a rats whatever for old cars. There have been collectors indulging in this hobby from the turn of the last century.

No its obvious other have jumped on this bandwagon of late don't see eye to eye with other collectors who have been indulging their passions forever.
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Old 23rd September 2009, 17:22   #44
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''As I said earlier there is nobody stopping you all from discussing prices but just that calling a seller a fool for pricing his car as he pleases is not cricket no is trying to educate him on the "right" price to quote.''

wasifji,
Do you mean to say one can price an object (as long it is not one of a kind) any ludicrous AMOUNT. For eg:We all know that the price range of a Morris Minor sedan
.Suppose a seller quotes maybe 3 times that amount ,should we not criticize him.I feel we should so because these are the sort of people who make genuine/prospective sellers feel like ''fools"'. also as you said people do make comparisons with regard to price .Many a time I have heard sellers saying"see that ....guy is quoting this much for the same model and so I am quoting likewise,etc.
Another good thing that has happened due to TeamBHp and this discussions, quoted prices of certain cars have certainly come down and many unrealistically astronomically priced cars have remain unsold!!

Last edited by ajay99 : 23rd September 2009 at 17:23. Reason: word misspelt
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Old 23rd September 2009, 18:30   #45
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Gentlemen, I'm not sure we're on the right thread to be discussing 'pricing' of classics... If need be let's open another thread and discuss it there. My $0.02...
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