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Old 24th September 2009, 20:16   #61
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Okay Lets do a simple excercise, to determine what logic goes into pricing a car. This could be fun also educative.

Each one of you value the Merc posted as if you were the seller (assuming you understand Ponton models well!)

Starting with cannonball.
In my opinion, if one has spent say X amount on purchasing a car and spent Y on restoration, enjoyed the pleasure of driving/keeping it for 1-2 years he can ask X+Y +15percent of (X+Y).
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Old 24th September 2009, 20:19   #62
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In my opinion, if one has spent say X amount on purchasing a car and spent Y on restoration, enjoyed the pleasure of driving/keeping it for 1-2 years he can ask X+Y +15percent of (X+Y).
thats a great formula for sure. What about depreciation and wear and tear on the car in its 1-2 years of use ?

Are you aware that in the case of most car restorations in the US the amount spent on restoration vastly exceeds the cars value and when it comes time to sell the seller actually looses money on them but they are OK with this as they knew this would happen and still chose to spend that money on the car.

If you cant see the Guys from the others then my friend i am its truly a tradegy

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Old 24th September 2009, 20:40   #63
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In my opinion, if one has spent say X amount on purchasing a car and spent Y on restoration, enjoyed the pleasure of driving/keeping it for 1-2 years he can ask X+Y +15percent of (X+Y).
In places like Bombay "Y" varies by a huge margin from owner to owner and by your formula there are Pontons from 7l - 20l. They are a class apart. Some of them have every nut and bolt imported others dont. One cannot make random pricing unless one has seen the car and appreciated the detail. For that one must have full knowledge of the particular model not just the marque. Its almost like concourse judging. Afterall "God lies in Detail"

You still have not answered my question. What do you value this car at?
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Old 24th September 2009, 21:18   #64
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I valued the car between 6 & 7.... which was not acceptable to the seller... My loss, someone else's gain. Life's like that.
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Old 25th September 2009, 13:03   #65
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Wasuf 12 to 17k is A BLENDED RATE FOR BOTH, And to answere your next question which may arise yes a transaction has happened at 16,667 BLENDED I hope we have settled this I am not sure what you are talking about in the case of the rest. Anyway publishers are independently putting these figures in the papers (please read first and ask as that comment seemed based on some 3rd hand info you have) and it is an understood fact (unspoken undertsanding) that the rates are blended please don't labor this man go ask someone if you don't belive me cheers if dont you right and I am wrong and that put an end to this.

Mole I am not trying to value the ponton I am trying to bring to the fore some elements that can be used in valuation some of which Spitfire pointed out, I think recognised valuers also use a methodology albiet they are baised on the lower side when it comes to 2nd hand.

But I am willing to get into valuing the ponton if you give me some details and we compare them against say a check list can every one first ad all the elements. Guys after all buying and selling is an art even with this list someone can sell sand to a shiekh so that is where individual intelligence etc comes into play but this list will atleast keep ego's out of the equation.

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Old 25th September 2009, 13:21   #66
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Mole I had a look at the pics she is nice but not a concor resto job, can see gaps between the rear door and the b pillar (interior rear pic) either rubber bidding has been recycled or the tin work is not accurate, that paint job can be misleading to show her as a great car she is nice but certainly not worth 11L. She is orignal though. I would peg the Anand car (gabirel shocks owner) at concor I believe she was sent overseas for a resto the one which is a raghtop. Now that is worth some serious money atleast by what I have seen of her over the years. There is another SL red (pagoda roof) with white wall tries in Mumbai now that is concor

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Old 25th September 2009, 13:35   #67
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orignal though. I would peg the Anand car (gabirel shocks owner) at concor I believe she was sent overseas for a resto the one which is a raghtop. Now that is worth some serious money atleast by what I seen of her over the years. There is another SL red (pagoda roof) with white wall tries in Mumbai now that is concor
Now with regards to these two cars which you feel qualify as concours standad restorations do you feel the owners. if they were to sell, are justified in asking for a price in line with the particular cars worth in the international market for that kind of a restoration ?

Are they going to be hugely overpriced or would ther be any buyers for them at that price considering the expences incurred in sending the car abroad for restoration. Will pricing according to the formula suggested by Ajay be acceptable to buyers in this case ?
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Old 25th September 2009, 17:21   #68
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I am not sure why you are connecting what I am saying ajay's suggestion. I think we need a weightage list with basics and then put some weightages for other elements. Spitfire has made some elaborate comments in the purchase section
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Old 25th September 2009, 20:41   #69
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My suggested formula was based on what a genuine seller can ask, not what it will fetch.Also I was talking about the indian scenario not the US, wasifji
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Old 25th September 2009, 21:08   #70
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My two bit. I was recently in touch with several enthusiasts in other countries, who quizzed me closely on why India has a ban on imports and exports of old cars. From them, I also got an idea of the market for old cars and how it operates abroad. The following are my impressions:

(a) Abroad, a lot of cars get bought and sold, so there is a reasonably accurate price discovery mechanism and values of marques, models and price trends are known.

(b) having said that, there is also the off chance that a car can go for far more, or far less than its expected value. This usually happens in auctions. A look at the recent sale in Beaulieu and the Goodwood auction will show what I mean.

(c) Generally speaking, in the restricted market in India, where a large number of enthusiasts chase a relatively fewer number of cars, low end cars command a much higher price than their counterparts abroad. for instance, Minis, Austin sevens, even RR silver shadows from the seventies, are much higher priced here than abroad.

(d) In the case of the higher end cars, the prices in India might be lower, because there are very few buyers operating at that rarefied level. For instance, in theory at least, a 6 C Alfa, or a Delage or something of that category, would fetch a much higher price abroad than here.

(e) History is valued to a far higher extent abroad than here. A car with an interesting and well documented history will probably sell for far more than the same model without one.

(f) Entry level prices, if one wants to pick up a basket case for restoration, are much lower abroad than here, because restoration costs are prohibitive there. Here, even basket cases are now expensive, as we have begun scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I therefore like to hazard a guess that the removal of the ban on exports and imports of vintage and classic cars might actually result in an influx of cars and not an efflux.

One last point; while we might predict doomsday that a lot of Maharajah's cars might leave the country in case the ban on exports is removed, it might also mean that a lot of cars might return. Given the recession, some of them might actually be affordable, if not for all, at least for the super rich enthusiast, of which India has a considerable number.
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Old 25th September 2009, 21:28   #71
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Originally Posted by wasif View Post
Now with regards to these two cars which you feel qualify as concours standad restorations do you feel the owners. if they were to sell, are justified in asking for a price in line with the particular cars worth in the international market for that kind of a restoration ?

Are they going to be hugely overpriced or would ther be any buyers for them at that price considering the expences incurred in sending the car abroad for restoration. Will pricing according to the formula suggested by Ajay be acceptable to buyers in this case ?
Are we joking here, by setting some formula's

Wasifjee, you would know and agree, something like that will not work during buying and selling of a classic/vintage.

This subject will lead us nowhere. There's no pre-defined value or any pre-set formula that can work during buying cars.

I bought my Beetle way back in 1999 (rather a rusted broken down shell) from a guy who knew value of these cars. He priced it at 1 lac to anyone on enquiry for almost 10 yrs of its rotting history. I pestered him for over an year to give me the pieces of the car and settled it for 60K. Now how does any formula come into action here.

Similar with my Bus, i expected the owner to ask a huge price(as per present market to be around 2-3 lacs, 2 yrs ago) my luck i got it at half the price i could ever have imagined. Now even here the formula fails.

Even in cases of newer cars its the same. I zeroed in on a 2000 Deawoo Matiz,One owner, had clocked only 9K on the odo and it till date runs on Bridgestone's of year 2000 Bangy market prices for that car is around 60-80K. The owner insisted on 1.50 lacs and Blunt at that. Since we liked that car so much, we never let it go , even if it costed us that non-negotiable price.

End of the day all of the above buys has made me more happier.

Its only enthusiasts who buy such cars "AT A PRICE" (again non-defined) Few things don't have a pre-set value as per me.

Dealers excuse.

Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 25th September 2009 at 21:34.
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Old 25th September 2009, 21:50   #72
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HI Guys if you have passion for an really original car dont discuss about the value of real beauties pay what you feel thats how i buy my cars dont think i am an big collecter i find any real virgin cars i have to buy them at the best price the whole thing is not applicable to guys who think about recession and feels the sellers will budge not for an original car where the seller also knows about originality
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Old 26th September 2009, 14:14   #73
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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Are we joking here, by setting some formula's

Wasifjee, you would know and agree, something like that will not work during buying and selling of a classic/vintage.

This subject will lead us nowhere. There's no pre-defined value or any pre-set formula that can work during buying cars.
Well said Pawan and exactly what I have been going on about here but nobody seems to understand.

Ajay suggested a formula as you can read here which is actually hilarious to read about, can you imagine it actually working.

On the other hand we have Canonball going on about setting guidelines for sellers and buyers again hilarious.

These people have lost the plot as they are looking at old cars as a means to make money. Canonball actually said so in so many words thats its all a business now very sad to hear and actually detracting from others who are really in this for the love and passion for cars like yourself and others.

As Imperial points out buying a classic is all about passion and how much one is willing or able to spend to aquire the object of ones desires.

Also as pointed out by Tonrag the prices of cars in India are not reflective of the international prices due to teh restrictions on the market.

We can delightfully spend our time drawing up guidelines and suggesting accurate prices for cars in India but will we be able to convince the seller that his price is not as per our standards and that he should lower it.

In the meantime as we are discussing this issue with teh seller another buyer with the required passion and resources will have bought the car and left us hanging.

So gents I suggst not trying to set up price guidelines as this is impossible. What one can do is actually make a list of points that can be considered when looking at the car's price.

Pricing will always come down to the merits of the individual car, the location of the seller and his actual willingness or need to part with the said car apart from the buyers passion and his need to own said car.
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Old 26th September 2009, 14:56   #74
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well put wasif and pavan.I have been going through this thread and really it dosent seem to make any kind of sense to me as to what the real reason or purpose that this discussion is going to/supposed to make.Im very sure that even if a seller has gone through this he definately isnt going to lower his price based on some formulaes and guidelines mentioned here.The vintage car scene still does have some passionate collectors and enthuiasts ,and cannot be generalised as saying that all are dealers or out to make money. Even so , whats the harm in the car owner asking a price for his car ??Who am I or anyone here in a position to comment/approve of or disapprove of?Let it be between the buyer and the seller.On the other hand tell me which one person here wouldnt like some extra bucks ?Its not like you are being cheated or conned. (thats if the deal is straight) If one cant afford or feels that the price mentioned is unreasonable it would be nice to walk away and not waste your time or someone elses. You never know,you just might get what you are looking for at your price.It dosent help commenting or verbally hurting someone and making enemies.

On the very contradictory "real estate matter" mentioned here,.Huh?? Unless out of desperation will you sell a piece of realestate for pittance? besides please dont compare properties or stocks to cars. I think that they are different and command different views.
you can never get any kind of a "market standard " for a vintage or classic car. Latest gen cars do have an approximate plus or minus figure based on the year/version /etc...well carwale and so on are there for that.
Guys,just enjoy your cars and spend time on more fruitful discussions, unless you havent really got any thing else to keep yourself busy with.

I have noticed that that many other "vintage enthuiasts" on this forum have kept away from this thread.Im sure they may be just reading and getting amused.
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Old 26th September 2009, 16:20   #75
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I have noticed that that many other "vintage enthuiasts" on this forum have kept away from this thread.Im sure they may be just reading and getting amused.
You are indeed observant. Others have also noted my 'silence'

But you guys got it all wrong. There is absolutely no harm in having a formula when you go to buy a car. You prepare a checklist before and refer to it while examining the car in question. Ofcourse condition, mileage, condition of tyres, seats, chrome etc will be factors. Then you will ask the owner how much he paid for it. Let us say that it is an MG bought in 1980. And give him some appreciation for every years for which he has kept it. So as per your formula you reach a grand figure of 5L. But do not rush him to accept your formula. No, you must first find out if he is a genuine seller (whatever that means). Now you find that he is a genuine, he is selling because he wants money (whether he needs it or not,what other reason could be there?).
So now you spring a surprise on him. " I will pay you only 5L as per my formula" The poor guy has been so frightened, he immediately gives in and sells his car for that 5L. Another success story.
And ofcourse you would have seen his income tax statements whether he really paid 10K in 1980. Remember, he is genuine and will show you all.

And if he does not bite, some other lucky genuine or non genuine enthusiast would get the car, as MG's are not so easily available. End of story.

There was an argument about transparancy. Yes transparancy is always a good thing, I like what Spitfire said about him selling a vehicle, showing the purchaser all the mods made, money spent so the guy knows what he is buying. But that does not mean that Spitfire must be so transparent so as to post the image of the cheque received in payment and pictures of the bundles of notes which he has received. That is nobody's business.

Just as it no ones business to go on the net and post about offers rejected and/or accepted pertaining to a car available for sale. Mr. Singh quoted 11L, you go and offer 7L,, about 36% less than he was asking. Since we all did not hear Mr. Singh laugh, and laughing-off is another term for refusal, in fact quite polite, what is wrong. Mr. Singh is not on the forum, he cannot reply. Maybe he said aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeee beta, what are you offering against my demand??? Mr. Singh could also have slammed then phone. And 11L would not be the most expensive Ponton.

Wasif's reference to real estate pricing was a bit outdated, remember he left India maybe 10 or nmore years ago. At that time deals were done in a very different manner. He was actually trying to say that all these dealings need not come on the open forum, you have no idea who all read tbhp, even authorities do. There is really no need for such exposure. That is why I had also suggested to use PM's. It is not a matter of a secret society.

Whatever we write here, hardly any seller will be influenced to sell cheaper to a genuine enthusiast. The deals will happen as they have been before. And if we poke fun at sellers and some times be obnoxious, sellers will stay away and you again have to rely on networking to source your cars. That means brokers, friends etc. I have sourced one car as a direct result of a post on tbhp, the second was networked at a tbhp meet.

Remember, basically we are NOT each others enemy, we just have different points of view. When I go to Goa next I want to meet Spitfire, and I hope to meet Cannonball soon. And all the others who would like that.

Cheers and Happy Dasera in advance, my net is unfortunately down at home.

harit
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