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Old 24th February 2010, 18:19   #121
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Thats a lottery like someone stated here. How much was the willy's quoted to you at? I think you are digging 1% of all the buy expamples lets have the others. Speedy was still in discussion with him and the impression he gave me (face to face) was that he was not comfortable with 9. Which is why I have a problem the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing a common illness in India, never found this to be the case anywhere else when it comes to such things. A stalwart told me that most collectors have bought cars at throwaway prices which is why if you ask any of the active ones here how many cars they bought in the past 1 year I am sure you won't get an answere. The same guy has a very good reputation and knows his stuff inside out including valuation
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Old 24th February 2010, 18:38   #122
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Now we are getting somewhere.

speak to speedy and I am sure he will say he was comfortable with teh ( L price hense he was about to buy but I gather you helped and he saved a lot instead.

So its all about negotiation and market forces isn't it ?

yes teh idea is to help fellow members as is provved here but don't you think any owner has the right to ask for whatever he feels. Its up to the buyer to negotiate further. It will ultimately come down to how bad the buyer wants it, how much he can pay and how bad the seller needs that kind of cash.

However much we or anyone lampoons the owner for asking for the moon will not help in this cas will it ?

Thats just the point I have always been trying to stress here.

Way back in the mid nineties I paid 1,25 L for a really great Willys MB and I was laughed at. Suffice to say four years later I was able to sell it for way much more than that and the owner now is being offered around ten times that I am told.
cannonball,
it seems that we will not be able to convince wasif ,nor will he able to convince us,because we seem to be parallel lines of thought moving at opposite directions and everyone knows "parallells '' never unite.
the best course of action please allow us to voice our opinion.
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Old 24th February 2010, 18:58   #123
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Originally Posted by canonball View Post
Thats a lottery like someone stated here. How much was the willy's quoted to you at? I think you are digging 1% of all the buy expamples lets have the others. Speedy was still in discussion with him and the impression he gave me (face to face) was that he was not comfortable with 9. Which is why I have a problem the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing a common illness in India, never found this to be the case anywhere else when it comes to such things. A stalwart told me that most collectors have bought cars at throwaway prices which is why if you ask any of the active ones here how many cars they bought in the past 1 year I am sure you won't get an answere. The same guy has a very good reputation and knows his stuff inside out including valuation
Boss lets agree to disagree as Ajay has aptly put it.

BTW I don't think all collectors bought at throw away prices. The perspective on that is they bought them at the asking price around the time the transactions took place which in most cases was way back. looking at those purchase prices today you feel they were purchased at throw away prices but actually in their times it was good money.

Now I am sure you are aware of Mr. Titus. He has been on an aquisition spree in the near past and has paid top dollar for all his cars, in some cases much more than what could be termed realistic.
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Old 24th February 2010, 19:18   #124
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[quote=wasif;1750623]Boss lets agree to disagree as Ajay has aptly put it.

BTW I don't think all collectors bought at throw away prices. The perspective on that is they bought them at the asking price around the time the transactions took place which in most cases was way back. looking at those purchase prices today you feel they were purchased at throw away prices but actually in their times it was good money.

Now I am sure you are aware of Mr. Titus. He has been on an aquisition spree in the near past and has paid top dollar for all his cars, in some cases much more than what could be termed realistic.[/quote]
But wasif, you forgot to mention that Titus is also ''famous'' for having quoted high prices for cars he was trying to sell also. the funniest part that he had put an ad in an automagazine in 2007 end (before the good recession set in) where in he had put about 8 odd cars for sale and there was foot note on that advertisement ''these prices are valid only till the end of that month""
now what have you to say about that.?
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Old 24th February 2010, 19:37   #125
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[quote=ajay99;1750661]
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
Boss lets agree to disagree as Ajay has aptly put it.

BTW I don't think all collectors bought at throw away prices. The perspective on that is they bought them at the asking price around the time the transactions took place which in most cases was way back. looking at those purchase prices today you feel they were purchased at throw away prices but actually in their times it was good money.

Now I am sure you are aware of Mr. Titus. He has been on an aquisition spree in the near past and has paid top dollar for all his cars, in some cases much more than what could be termed realistic.[/quote]
But wasif, you forgot to mention that Titus is also ''famous'' for having quoted high prices for cars he was trying to sell also. the funniest part that he had put an ad in an automagazine in 2007 end (before the good recession set in) where in he had put about 8 odd cars for sale and there was foot note on that advertisement ''these prices are valid only till the end of that month""
now what have you to say about that.?
Thats the way it is ...do you expect him to buy at top dollar and sell in dimes ???
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Old 24th February 2010, 19:40   #126
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Titus is a baby in this so lets not convinently put him here and I too have tracked the market since 90's (closely) infact I think he borders speculatore category the real ones who don't and buy to never sell are Bhogilal and similar such ones who many small time ones here would love to emmulate but keep churing their protfolio so are always ok with unreasonable appreciation. Bhogilal and company buy and keep cars for decades and decades without selling and think of value at the time of sale as inconsequential. But here I find many too concerned about it and if you read my post said most collectors and not all!

I think if Titus tries to sell he will be the victim of his own making. many such guys have come and gone I have seen them since 1980's

Your last post seems to suggest he buys cars to SELL meaning he is speculating its another thing that none are sold as yet.

By the way I am always looking to buy provided soemthing is reasonable = not peanuts and not 10X either! And I am not looking to speculate or do chruning/hoarding ( 2 of each etc) with my purchase it will stay and be passed on and not parked in dark dank garages/fields half restored/rusting to the ground with unknown papers my upbringing does not allow me to engage in such things

Last edited by canonball : 24th February 2010 at 19:50.
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Old 24th February 2010, 19:48   #127
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Originally Posted by canonball View Post
Bhogilal and company buy and keep cars for decades and decades without selling and think of value at the time of sale as inconsequential.
So you mean that if and when these "bhogilal and company" sell cars they just give them away at next to nothing.

And your concept of a collector is a bit distorted. A collector who is a genuine enthuseast will definitely keep "shuffling" his portfolio to be able to enjoy a variety of cars. Now this is noting to look down on but something even the best and the biggest collectors do on a reguar basis.

I didn't say Titus was buying to sell but the inference was that he got into this car fad quiet late and was more than happy to pay good prices cause he knew those cars he bought would be more valuable than what he paid after a few years.

Now if he wishes to sell he is perfectly within his likits to ask for a price as he seems fit and stipulate a validity period for it as well.

The old car hobby is all about passion. The deeper your passion to aquire a certain car the higher you will be willing to pay for it.

This is in by no means a cut and dried pricing formula that can be applied to this passion and that is pprecisely the reason some very interesting cars at auctions go thru the roof if twoor more bidders take a fanccy to them. They might at a later date sell for much less but that is the way this market works.

Last edited by wasif : 24th February 2010 at 19:51.
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Old 24th February 2010, 19:59   #128
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Sir lets keep the direct subjectives of each other to ones self I am not sure what gives you the right to opine on my concepts!! You gave birth to what the meaning of collectors is? Boss I have been around and seen things also I am not sure who you communicate on normal basis with but lets not make direct remarks kapish?

I have seen the cars Titus is selling trust me they don't come in shuffling category they are some of his better cars!! Nor did I say bhogilal should give them away I think you seem to loosing your patience! His cars will most likely be sold some day maybe his son in law or grandson or who ever and what they sell for will be seen then I am talking about a 3.5 lac car being quoted at 11 in 18 months. what is shuffling? I consider anything you buy in this category should become a family heirloom and not shuffled much like matrimony and other such concepts!

Shuffling is a loose term with a lot of grey area in India

Last edited by canonball : 24th February 2010 at 20:05.
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Old 24th February 2010, 20:09   #129
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Originally Posted by canonball View Post
Sir lets keep the direct subjectives of each other to ones self I am not sure what gives you the right to opine on my concepts!! You gave birth to what the meaning of collectors is? Boss I have been around and seen things also I am not sure who you communicate on normal basis with but lets not make direct remarks kapish?

I have seen the cars Titus is selling trust me they don't come in shuffling category they are some of his better cars!! Nor did I say bhogilal should give them away I think you seem to loosing your patience! His cars will most likely be sold some day maybe his son in law or grandson or who ever and what they sell for will be seen then I am talking about a 3.5 lac car being quoted at 11 in 18 months. what is shuffling? I consider anything you buy in this category should become a family heirloom and shuffled much like matrimony and other such concepts!

Shuffling is a loose term with a lot of grey area in India
Every major collector worth his salt in the west keeps shuffling and juggling his cars. That is the way things work. You get tired of a car after a while an sellit for another and the cycle goes on.

That is collecting and that is passion. Holding on to them till you die is also collecting ut then you loos interest in them and the cars suffer.

Inthis hobby we want the cars to last not just go into teh ground because collector is not interested in thme nor is is he interested in parting with them.

Take the case of the Holkar Duesenberg. Are you aware how many top notch collectors have owned it so far and it still regularly changes hands...so I guess shuffling is a "grey" are then huh...pity someone forgot to tell General Lyons that the last time he shuffled his cars.
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Old 24th February 2010, 20:14   #130
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Thats the way it is ...do you expect him to buy at top dollar and sell in dimes ???
no sir, you again got me wrong.these cars are the ones which are not the ones which were purchased recently .I am talking about 2007.

Last edited by Rehaan : 25th February 2010 at 20:30. Reason: Quote fixed.
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Old 24th February 2010, 20:47   #131
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wasif,
here again you have justified titus of putting a validity period of 30 days for the demanded price of a vintage car.do you mean to say that he meant it was a "discounted'' offer valid for 30 days ???
also by the way probably you will agree with me if I say that your opinions are tilted more towards the sellers, rather than the buyer.I am not in any manner saying that you are wrong or you cant have that bias.
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Old 25th February 2010, 00:54   #132
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There is more to a vintage / classic car than just the car and its parts. There is some sort of an emotional attachment or a sentimental value attached to it. Some may realise it, and some may not. When you have owned a car for a very long time, you tend to get attached to it. You tend to take more care of it than what a regular owner of a new car would take care of. And this costs a lot of money. A person who has owned a Morris Minor (or for that matter any car) since he first bought it 30-40 years ago and has maintained it in an original and immaculate condition will definitely command a high value when he sells it. Obviously you cannot expect him to sell it for the same price that he purchased it. Or even double or triple. Its obviously gonna be much more than the actual value. The value could be exhorbitant, but that depends on how close the owner holds this car to his heart. Its something that the buyer may not understand since he is only looking to buy a car and not a piece of history of someones life.

The same goes with a restored car. Different restorers charge differently for same car. There could be a Dodge Kingsway available for 5 lakhs since it is an original unrestored car in good condition. On the other hand there could be a fully restored original Dodge Kingsway available for 11 lakhs. Maybe the price is high cos the owner had to source all the spares from abroad which has increased the restoration cost and hence the high resale value.

There are a lot of examples I can give on this topic. And its not about a vintage car/bike. It even applies to cars/bikes of the 90's which have been out of production. Look at the RX100 for instance. A scrap one goes for around 6.5 to 7k. A person spends around 15-20k on getting the bike to an original mint condition. If he has to sell the bike, he will definitely quote a high price. A person looking at buying a 2nd han RX100 is not looking at this kind of price bracket and if shown such a bike/price will definitely ridicule it. Thats where he is wrong? It doesnt fit his budget, he should look out elsewhere and not at a mint condition bike.

Think about it canonball and ajay. I'm not saying you are wrong, neither am I saying that you are right. Vintage / Classic cars appreciate over time and we can see the trend internationally. Take a look at the Sothbeys / Christeys auctions or even the auctions at Pebbles Beach and you will be surprised at the prices these cars sell at.

All I am trying to say is that we are not adding any value to this thread by just lamenting about the same thing everytime a car is put under the hammer.
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Old 25th February 2010, 09:51   #133
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Thanks V12 it is good to see someone else also shares my opinions on this.

What you have said below is precisely the point I have been trying to make too.

It would be a good idea to investigate why the seller is asking for the price he wants instead of just lampooning him for what we feel is a high price...maybe there are reasons for this price.

And then someone might come along who can see the value and wants a car like that and is willing to pay the premium and then you have a sale.
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Old 25th February 2010, 10:15   #134
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Folks I gave example of a exact similar car in the same state of restoration, probably the same car at 3.5 and we are not talking decades ago but not more than 2 years ago, therefore 3.5 to 11 is quite a jump. I have seen more cars offered at 5X by either dealers/investors or onwers who bought them in the recent past and not owned them like you are stating V12 so that is the difference I am pointing out, a new and larger speculative element which has entered the market and everyone seems to be conviniently riding it! There are some like you who have keep arguing with us online and have stated just the opposite offline, things like "don't spoil the market" etc. I also find that none of you ever say anything like it is expensive it always either "good price", "go grab it, or else someone else will", "What is expensive to you may be good price to another" .

Wasif thanks for the lessons in sales, maybe you should go and take a shot at buying that car.

V12 whilst you are saying no one is right/wrong you have made biased statements in the post, How do you come the conclusion of 5 lacs for unrestored kingsway? Spending 20k on an RX and then qouting a lac for it is what I am pointing out (that is a 500% margin!!). By the way the kingway is intact no parts from overseas etc it has been painted accurately with the same old parts (which are intact), and by the sound of the seller he has not owned it for long. Anyway I don't think we are getting anywhere so lets just agree to disagree. This is a valuation section I created so people can state their opinion on what prices they see/are quoted/bought etc, lamenting or no lamenting this is what it is. 11 lacs is a crazy price being asked for I won't be surpirised if it gets negotiated well and goes for Rs. 5 to 6 (good price/fair valuation/right rpice) or stays with him. It seems you guys want to keep things as grey as possible.

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Old 25th February 2010, 11:00   #135
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I am not interested in that car and any other car in Indai for that matter.

What I am currently looking at is a very neat MG B ...there are several around but I am lookign to get one sent over from the UK as teh price there including shippin to teh UAE is around 20 % less that what is being quoted here.

Will let you know how that goes.

There is also a neat 500SL I have been eying, the price is AED 50,000, as the car is good and I have patience I have offered teh seller AED 30,000. If and when he agrees I might buy it but then again he might find a biyer for 45,000 and I will be left out....but I am OK with that
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