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Old 15th July 2009, 18:05   #1
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Default Vintage & Classic car valuation

I find that there is a major discrepency in how vintage and classic cars are priced or valued. In the hope of bringing objectivity to this issue I wish to create this thread in the hope of getting and sharing realistic opinions, experiences, and feedback from buyers, owner, followers and anyone else who may have a genuine and true opinion or information on the matter. This may help buyers and sellers to quote genuine prices and not do things in the blind. I think pricing should be a science and not an emmotion.

Folks let keep it real and unbaised (please dont inflate or deflate values).

We can start by say the following list of brands and add them as we get info:

1) VW
2) Mercedes Benz
3) Morris
4) Austin
5) Chevrolet
6) Dodge
7) Plymouth
8) Pontiac
9) Willey's
10) Fiat
11) Hindustan
12) Standard
13) MG
14)Studebaker
15) Wolseley

Last edited by canonball : 15th July 2009 at 18:13.
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Old 15th July 2009, 18:26   #2
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Since there is a closed market usually with no frame of reference, this is a very sketchy and fluctuating issue.

Very difficult to paint all with the same brush. A Morris Minor low light cabrio will be worth more than a highlight sedan. Condition plays a vital role too.

To sum it up - price will depend on condition of buyer and seller!

Last edited by karlosdeville : 15th July 2009 at 18:27.
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Old 15th July 2009, 18:43   #3
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Well karl the idea is to capture the same out here. For example why don't you share what you paid for some of the cars you acquired, how much time and money you put into them. I am glad you have commented as it is folks like you who will be able to bring objectivity and understanding.

I find a lot of buyers and sellers take undue advantage of it being closed which was the case with our regular used car market in the past and now we have folks like carwale soon like the west even these cars will be captured as change is inevitable

Last edited by canonball : 15th July 2009 at 18:45.
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Old 15th July 2009, 20:27   #4
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A thread started with good intent Cannon, will go the wrong way. I can literally see two factions at war with each other launching a verbal assault, some decorated with politically correct words (to avoid getting infracted) and the other without such lingual skills.

IMHO the people on this forum who are into vintage and classics know their stuff...or at least think they do so, are not going to subscribe to the suggestions and the people who are not interested, will not be bothered anyways, so the point is will this thread turn into a brickbat throwing one? Dont get me wrong, im not, for one moment, doubting your good intent of starting this thread.

Firstly are we talking about restored, restorable or unrestored cars?
IMHO, the condition a car in in, is one of the prime factors for deciding the price of a vehicle. One cannot by ant stretch of imagination generalise the condition and thus the price. A car gets valued by the condition she is in, by the kind of attention to detail the restorer has given when restoring it (presuming we are talking about restored cars)

Unless one sees the car personally and scrutinizes different aspects, an arrival at any selling price is not going to be possible.

Add to that, the giving out of a price by a member and then an unhealthy debate on whos right and whether the price is right or wrong. Who wants to get into it?? Not me for sure and not you i presume either. Dump this thread.
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Old 15th July 2009, 20:37   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canonball View Post
I find that there is a major discrepency in how vintage and classic cars are priced or valued. In the hope of bringing objectivity to this issue I wish to create this thread in the hope of getting and sharing realistic opinions, experiences, and feedback from buyers, owner, followers and anyone else who may have a genuine and true opinion or information on the matter. This may help buyers and sellers to quote genuine prices and not do things in the blind. I think pricing should be a science and not an emmotion.

Folks let keep it real and unbaised (please dont inflate or deflate values).

We can start by say the following list of brands and add them as we get info:

1) VW
2) Mercedes Benz
3) Morris
4) Austin
5) Chevrolet
6) Dodge
7) Plymouth
8) Pontiac
9) Willey's
10) Fiat
11) Hindustan
12) Standard
13) MG
14)Studebaker
15) Wolseley
i will give my comment on the brands which have been traded/sold in Kerala in the past 5 years.caveat emptor-tax dues in case of stationary cars.
1.MORRIS Minor/1000/-the lowest for an unrestored original car was Rs.35000/- and the highest for a concourse fully restored car was Rs.180000/-.
2.Morris eight sedan- Rs.60000/- Rs.145000/-
3.1938Morris eight tourer-Rs.1.5- Rs.3.75 lakhs.
4.Hindustan 14- fully restored concourse standard car with original side valve engine -Rs.1.4 lakhs.
other hindustan 14 cars have been traded between 50000/- to 100000/-
landmaster(petrol engine)- from 30000/- to Rs.109,000/-
Baby Hindustan- from Rs.15000/- to Rs.95000/-
Hindustan 10-only one car has been traded afully original Kerala car with only 65000/- miles done- Rs.100,000/-(in 2005)
5.Fiat-
elegant -was trading for Rs.20000/-to30,000till 2007 when all on a sudden the prices sky rocketed to Rs.45,000/-to Rs.90,000/-(depending on the condition).
millicento - same as above now quotes range from50000/- to Rs.100,000/-
6.standard herald- it was sold around 15000/- 20000/- till 2 years back,recently one 4 door got sold for Rs.33000/-

7.VW- beetle - I know of 5 beetle sedans that were traded in the last 5 years.
a. 1966 sedan - status-non running- sold for Rs.65000/-from kottayam(KEF car )-year 2004
b.1965 sedan-status -running -but engine needed overhaul- from Kollam
(KRF car)-year-2005- price Rs.60000/-
c.1961 sedan(KLT) car white colour- running but transmission needed overhaul- from Kollam- sold year-2005- price-Rs.70000/-
d.1962 sedan(KLQ) car yellow colour- running condition but needed work- from the Kollam -sold year 2005 -price-Rs.65000/- resold to my friend in chennai in 2006 for Rs.85000/- still with him.
e.1967 sedan(karnataka regd car) green colour- non running -heavy work required- from kottayam sold for rs.60000/- then modded and resold for Rs.140000/- to an estate guy in IDUKKI

will contribute further tomorrow
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Old 16th July 2009, 10:14   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
A thread started with good intent Cannon, will go the wrong way.

Dont get me wrong, im not, for one moment, doubting your good intent of starting this thread.

Dump this thread.
Very well said Gogiji, you've spelt it out for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by canonball View Post
For example why don't you share what you paid for some of the cars you acquired, how much time and money you put into them.
Since you have requested and this is a well meaning thread, here goes.

1960 Standard 10 - Free.
1960 Fiat 1100 - Free.
1973 Premier President - Free.
1962 Ambassador - Almost free.
1971 Fiat 1100 - 15,400.
1972 Fiat 1100 - 15,000.
1961 Fiat 1100 Export - 15,000.
1967 Fiat 1100 - 23,000
1955 Fiat 1100 - 15,000.
1978 Padmini - 24,000.
1956 VW Beetle - 20,000.
1964 Vespa - 4,000.
1969 Royal Enfield Fantabulus - 1,000.

As you can see these prices are nowhere indicative - cannot and should not be used as reference for buying another car.
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Old 16th July 2009, 10:15   #7
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As has been pointed out by V 16 this issue is not as easy as it appears and is very complicated to really whet out and bring some logic into.

We all know that the price a product commands is a derivative of perceived value. The Skoda is a classic example. No one buys or considers the car as a upmarket sedan anywhere else in the world. The brand doesn't even figure as a car to contend with. And yet in India the brand has done reasonably well. All because the Indian populace perceives some value in the proposition.

When it comes to vintage cars the game gets even more puzzling. The Indian market is a closed one. You don't have the option of importing cars. So obviously this restriction brings about a disconnect between world values and what a car fetches in India. At the same time the number of buyers in India is limited. Not many cars are traded on a regular basis even on a 10 year span to allow for a valuation to settle.

So here in India you have a very odd situation. The top cars have very few buyers who can afford them. At another level cars which otherwise wouldn't attract much attention get traded occassionally at high prices.

The only way the valuations can settle to some level is when the demand is consistent and there are enough buyers in the market trading regularly. Until then a car will command a price when the seller has a buyer who wants it bad enough !!
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Old 16th July 2009, 11:15   #8
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
The only way the valuations can settle to some level is when the demand is consistent and there are enough buyers in the market trading regularly. Until then a car will command a price when the seller has a buyer who wants it bad enough !!
True to a certain extent. If the demand gets consistant the price will actually go up as the stock is limited this is simple economics.

Valuation of cars will always be based on negotiations between buyer and seller and how badly the buyer wants the car. This is not a country where you can go up to a buyer and say hey that car sells for this much so you need to sell it around the same price. Will not work.

Some people here have been crying foul and accusing others of driving up prices. Well guys its a free country and the owner can ask for whatever price he chooses. If it is not right the car will not sell its that simple.

Now I have paid some very good prices for some of the cars I bought and sold back when I was in India. The again there was this very original Willys Jeep that i came across and had to have it. i paid 100,000 for it and this was in 98 when other jeeps though not this good were selling for 15,000 to 20,000. I wanted it and felt it was worth it so I bought it.

Thats an example of how things work. Harit has spoken on this at lenght in some other thread and he is right. That Jeep is now worth a fortune and then people thought I was crazy.

The only time prices would go down would be when ther are plenty of sellers with plenty of stock irrespective of the number of buyers.

This is evienced from what certain collectors managed to buy say till the early 80's.There were plenty of cars out there and not many actually wanted them so people like Pranlal and Rashid Bhai managed to amass great collections at reasonable prices.

Now things are different not many cars around but a huge increase in demand. So guys the prices will only go up. I would suggest if there is a car out there you want to own go out negotiate on it and buy it if you have the money. You will not loose in the long run.

Now people like Karl are extremely fortunate to have recieved so many cars free. Enviable but how many of us can say the same.

There is no point in asking others what they have paid for their cars and trying to compare prices and expect to pay the same.

Now what can be discussed is how much a person has actually spent to restore their car. This is possible and actually will give others an idea what it costs to restore cars and prevent them from being overcharged by unscruplous garage owners.

Last edited by wasif : 16th July 2009 at 11:16.
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Old 16th July 2009, 11:47   #9
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Well, actually market forces do tend to steer the price, but everyone does not and cannot be compelled to go by market forces.
If tomorrow free import of classic cars into India were to be allowed, then we would have a drop in prices. But again, market forced would decide. So if you have a car which belonged to a Maharaja once upon a time, well that may still be expensive. But again, that again depends on the make and model of the car. So, all is if, if and again if. If the seller is in a good mood, if the seller knows what he has got if........... When the price of Rolls's crossed 10L, someone was trying to sell his Austin 7 for 7L, citing the price of the Rolls.
So, my humble suggestion, if you have seen a car, then go and negotiate, take a call and act. While debating price levels, someone else may already be on the job. And then you could find another one and again debate and lose. Fast and decisive action is required, and make a cut to suit your pocket. Happy buying.

Cheers harit
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Old 16th July 2009, 12:47   #10
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I am glad we are seeing reasonable opinions and experiences which was the idea folks. It is important for certian buyers and certain sellers to read this before they make offers for cars they intend to buy are set expectation before they sell. I think fair value is important and speculation out the window.

Like Harit said if you compare it to real estate two similar building on the same street can and have sold for different prices because one is more better kept/better utilities/grade of construction than the other so same would go for cars but to the extent of condition, accuracy and type of up keep, and type of owner. thx
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Old 16th July 2009, 21:01   #11
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Very peculiar subject to choose for a thread.

Anyways, Whenever you go to buy a classic or Vintage, there is no particular price that is looked as a benchmark. Its works like a lottery.

I got my VW Beetle 7 yrs ago, (almost literary unearthed from the ground) i paid up a whopping Rs. 65K, but later had to spend 4 times that amount restoring it. Now a similar rotten Beetle will not come for anything less than a lac. A good running Beetle costs a minimum of 3 lacs.

Last year during my VW Microbus purchase, again i paid Rs 65K , wherein similar condition Bus are available at 4 times the price i actually paid.

I've never sold any car in my lifetime, so cant talk with a sellers point of view is.

Buying and selling prices are actually extremely subjective.

Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 16th July 2009 at 21:02.
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Old 17th July 2009, 12:12   #12
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Great things have begun with some thinking peculiar, others not possible and some saying Dump the thread The idea is to not get things out of control. So far I see genuine purchase prices and I bet a lot of effort and money in restoring and keeping these beauties the shape they should be in by all the folks.

The idea is to bring measured transparency and objectivity in the community so prices appreciate and remain within reasonable limits and not beyound logic. I firmly believe vintage & classic cars must appreciate steadily. I am not sure what 4 time and 10 time price increase in cars picked up last year or before means like some qouted here. Like anything in nature and its evolution any spike is unsustainable and there is ample examples (Art, Antiques, Property, Stock market decoupling & recoupling debt etc) of the same in the current recession in our country.

I had a very similar and interesting experince whilst shopping for a water view property in GOA in 07/08. This lady fixed a price with me and the next day increased it and this went on till she doubled it from her orignal quoted price! by which time the market forze and she still owns the property which she bought for investment purpose!

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Old 17th July 2009, 13:31   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Very peculiar subject to choose for a thread.

Anyways, Whenever you go to buy a classic or Vintage, there is no particular price that is looked as a benchmark. Its works like a lottery.

Buying and selling prices are actually extremely subjective.
Now we are getting somewhere. There are no hard and fast rules.

Cheers harit
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Old 17th July 2009, 17:07   #14
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
this issue is not as easy as it appears and is very complicated to really whet out and bring some logic into.

The Skoda is a classic example. No one buys or considers the car as a upmarket sedan anywhere else in the world.

......the Indian populace perceives some value in the proposition.

When it comes to vintage cars the game gets even more puzzling. The Indian market is a closed one.

Not many cars are traded on a regular basis even on a 10 year span to allow for a valuation to settle.
Quote:
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True to a certain extent. If the demand gets consistant the price will actually go up as the stock is limited this is simple economics.


Another reason why we cant really or practically put a benchmark on the price is that the supply is limited. One really cant compare it to setting a price as is done for available modern cars. These modern cars are available a dime a dozen. See a few years ago when Chevy Impalas and other cars were being sold of for as low as a few thousands. With the scarcity factor creeping in, the prices have risen. One hears that someone sold his Impala for XXX lakhs and then someone sold it for a fraction of that price, so there is no benchmark. The rarer the car the less is the chance to put a bench mark on it. See the case of Fiats. Since i bought my three cars, the price has more than trebled...???!! Confusing right.

Even Economic forces play a role here.

Then comes a time when the stock market is booming, real estate properties are rising and everyone is making money...not just money, a lot of money. After such a person has secured his necessary buys, what does he do with the extra money still pouring in or at least it is perceived to be pouring in?

One starts getting exotic. One develops expensive tastes, the Rolex-es follow, An exotic is parked in your garage, depending on how much luck has favoured one, a summer house in Amby valley for double the price of last year, when you thought paying its then asking price, which was half of today was stupid. Suddenly todays price seems reasonable. Overnight one develops taste buds for Single malt and Montechristo No.1. then he starts talking and investing into art, then a want of something more exotic. I know of so many new buyers who entered into the vintage and classic car owners list at this venture in their lives.

Most of them, im sorry to say, were first timers, who thought it was very glamorous to own such a car but who had no love for them. Thats the mistake they made.
I know of someone who bought a 1958 ponton which needed all the work possible, with wrong papers and the wrong engine & gearbox, for a whopping 6.5 lakhs. He announced at a soiree when we met that he too is a proud owner of a "Vintage" Merc. Naturally i asked him details and he was dumbfounded. He knew nothing of what model it was, was fumbling with the year of manufacture, had no idea whether it was a ponton or otherwise and was not even sure whether it had power steering (a trick question by me). HE also was not sure of the series, whether it was a 180-190-220.... All he said was it was pre owned by a Maharaja. What Crap!! I had seen the car nearly a month ago and had rejected it at 2.75 lakhs for its wrong components.

The poor guy bought it only because it was a Merc and boy, did he get gypped. Of course i never told him that. He never drove it more than once, and wanted to sell it desperately before the rains. Alas no buyers for even half the price. The car is deteriorating in his native place in a closed garage, gathering rust and all other things not very friendly towards vehicles. When he wanted to sell it, i did point out its deficiencies. He could not believe that dealers could be that crooked. Welcome to the real world my friend. The price hes looking for is unachievable and the price that it should fetch, it is not for its unoriginality. What it will sell finally for, i dont think he would want to sell.

So the above story is an indication of how market forces and economic conditions can create and dilute temporarily created demands.

Enough on the economics lesson. I maintain, with due and sincere apologies to my friend Cannonball but simply not possible to realistically comment on this thread.
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Old 17th July 2009, 19:47   #15
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sure V-16 but I am happy people are writing in with their experiences. You have such a long list and a large fleet how about telling us your list and for how much and in which year you bought them this will at least create some direction in the future as to premiums and how one can go about setting them one year from now or say 3!

Better yet if one of you sells you should also put at what price so we can avoid sily stuff like spiytfires split windscreen which he sold for 1.5 and is now being qouted at 10 within a year and a half. Even gold has to not appreciated the same way.
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