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Old 29th November 2009, 18:09   #1
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Default Which Alterations in Your Car/Bike are Likely to Make You Lose Points in Rallies?

We often change or redo some parts of our old car/bike when either original ones are very tough or impossible to procure. Or sometimes we change spares with modern fitments like alloys and so on just for the heck of it.Many a time we are ignorant of how the original example looked or at times we know how the original looked but due to unavoidable reasons cannot replicate originality.
Apart from making the car or bike look a bit less original or even odd and weird in some cases, the originality is tampered with make us lose points in rallies in the concours'd elegance segments. Sometimes many cars or bikes are disqualified.For instance if an old Landmaster is fitted with the Ambassador OHV engine or still worse something in petrol or diesel from Isuzu thats fit for disqualification.
I hope friends we can discuss with our awareness and understanding the spares/parts and accessories which if fitted can earn us negative points in rallies.
To start with I will concentrate upon the electricals:
(1) I have fitted an alternator replacing the original dynamo of my Landmaster.
(2) I have fitted an electronic fuel pump in my car replacing the original solenoid enabled fuel pump.Both these were/are electrical/electronic.
I have never been told that I am losing any points.
(3) Many older cars of the 1940's and even LHD Willys jeeps(CJ3B) as late as 1963 were fitted with the 6 volt electricals and a battery of 6 volts for the power. Many owners have changed over to 12 Volts as 6 volt batteries, bulbs,cut outs, coils and all other appendages apart from being scarce to source are not in vogue.So I am sure this changeover too does not affect the rally points.
(4) I am yet to fit halogens to my car's headlights. Am not sure whether fitting halogens will play a spoilsport?
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My Landmaster at the 2009 Rally
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Mr Nitin Dossa, the judge
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Mr Nitin Dossa astride my Landmaster
Would invite opinions from friends!
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Old 29th November 2009, 18:50   #2
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are halogens a must,why dont you keep to regular bulbs,
also 12 volts is ok,but dynamo/generators are still available.is it not?
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Old 29th November 2009, 20:28   #3
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Originally Posted by ajay99 View Post
are halogens a must,why dont you keep to regular bulbs,
also 12 volts is ok,but dynamo/generators are still available.is it not?
Thats Ok ajay about halogens. Alternators recharge the battery much faster as compared to dynamos.
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Old 29th November 2009, 23:00   #4
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Extra accesories like for example a music system , a steering wheel knob,etc may also lead to some negative marking.
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Old 29th November 2009, 23:06   #5
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Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post
Extra accesories like for example a music system , a steering wheel knob,etc may also lead to some negative marking.
Sunfilms that have become essential in today's cars mar the period looks of any old car and can also lead to minus points.
In fact due to the absence of a music system my little daughter labels my Landmaster as a car that needs to be avoided for her movements.
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Old 29th November 2009, 23:18   #6
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Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
Sunfilms that have become essential in today's cars mar the period looks of any old car and can also lead to minus points.
In fact due to the absence of a music system my little daughter labels my Landmaster as a car that needs to be avoided for her movements.
We can talk on this subject only if we are preparing our cars as a Concurs car.

A big minus point can be the use of different carburetors.
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Old 30th November 2009, 10:00   #7
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This well compiled thread should be of use for the discussion.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vintag...-concours.html (Creating Guidelines for Judging at our Vintage and Classic Concours)
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Old 1st December 2009, 22:36   #8
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What about wrong rims?do you think some of our judges give negative points for that as well ?

Another thing that could give negative points is dirt/grime in the car especially in the engine bay.

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Old 1st December 2009, 23:03   #9
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Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post
What about wrong rims?do you think some of our judges give negative points for that as well ?

Another thing that could give negative points is dirt/grime in the car especially in the engine bay.
Wrong rims are surely a turn off. Especially some older Ambassadors have new rims fitted that can be sighted very easily.Similarly for many other cars too.
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Old 1st December 2009, 23:58   #10
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Hi Anjan,

The question posed by pertains more towards originality, condition and permissible alteration to vehicles which are being judged at some show or the other. The problem is that there are a lot of opinions, opinions differ and often change. In some events a points/rating system is in place, but it is for the judges to decide on the quantum of points to give. I may deduct 5 points on your Landmaster just because you have put sunshades. These shades are a modern non period accessory and prevent the upholstry ( hopefully rexine so that your shirt will stick to it after some time) from being baked in the sun. Another judge will say that this is a cool accessory. Seriously, apart from that joke, your car should have the sunshade over the front screen.

Ideally, a car should be 100% original to get 100% points. But if you now apply two categories, original and restoration, you automatically have a different outlook and perspective to judge from. Today Pebble Beach has these as two distinctively separate categories, but remember that at one time there was no such distinction. So in a way, down the line, an opinion, or now consensus changed. Are you still with me?

A car which is say 100% original, cannot be 100% pristine as mechanicals, upholstry, paint etc. do age. So now you replace. If the material is available, good, if not, then the nearest. So if you use Standox paints in place of Duco on a car, you should lose points. If you chrome plate instead of nickel finish, again points can be lost. And now you come to the real question, what changes are permissible?

That depends, if you use the car or nuture the car to win prizes. These two are distinctive different situations. In todays time when we are used to more comforts, you must fit an electric fuel pump. Today who want to put a wet cloth on the fuel pump? You can definitely fit radials. You can definitely convert to 12 volts, though from my own experience 6 volts works if you use the car regularly. I drove a 6 volt car in my first 5 years of driving. All alterations can be justified, the answer is to keep them to a minimum and reversible to be able to revert to original when an event occurs. Since you are talking of a Landmaster for a concors event, most of the modifications done to your car are a no no. A Landmaster will always face difficulty in such an event.

I drive an Amby. I have alternator, electric fuel pump, AC, music system, Sachs Shox, enlarged rear glass (front glass also fitted behind), extra security lock in door(today who in his right mind would steal it?) etc. And when I use that car to transport me to a rally, never as an entry, it still get some admiring crowd because it is shiny bright green and complete, not rusty like some of the "modern" classic cars entered with incomplete headlights just to artificially increase the numbers.

Another fact to remember is that not all judges are competent, and I also learnt at the Cartier event that one has to sell his car to the judges, so convince him that your alterations are legitimate.
But keep in mind, alteration made to make the car more user friendly, and alterations made to have the car mobile for concors shows are two different subjects. For a concors show, alternator and fuel pump are not allowed. About the electrics, why bother. A judge may ask you to start your car, but has he ever asked you to switch on the light? Very rarely he would do that, and anyhow how will he see that you use 12 volts in place of 6 volts and which bulb is fitted?

This post is also with jest, because in many cases judging at our events is a joke! And I can back that up!

Cheers harit
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Old 2nd December 2009, 00:24   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
This post is also with jest, because in many cases judging at our events is a joke! And I can back that up!


Well i agree to that 100%.Sometimes the judges no nothing about a particular car(originality) and then they go according to what the owner says and in most cases the owner says something wrong to get more points.

We surely need to have some judges who have extensive knowledge about various cars.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 16:37   #12
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Thanks harit these are real life facts and we as owners face such situations during the rallies.Since we are talking of Landmasters, here one 1956 Landmaster fitted with a 1489 cc, OHV Ambassador engine, got the award for the Best Woman Rally Driver,in the 2007 rally, but the car was not fit enough for a concours event due to that and many other alterations.Its upholstery was original though.Another known face here had twoentries in the 2005 rally- a 1938 Austin 8 (BYJ 539)and a 1957 Fiat 1100 Dukkar (BYJ 187) with the centre light. He a senior citizen, worked hard on these cars for weeks and the two cars were done up fairly good according to me.At the end of the day, he did not win anything. Rather he had been seen in the rallies since about 15 yearsbut never won anything.So one fine day he called it quits from the rallies! I phoned and his wife talked to me. She poured out her heart saying that her hubby used to deeply get involved to prepare his cars since about two to three weeks before the D Day forgetting his meals and routine. It used to be mecahnics, workshop, soiled hands, dirtied clothes, payment of bills prepared with soiled hands in illegible handwriting and so on.And despite such hard work he was never given any prize whatsoever in any category.So we discussed the whole gamut and decided to keep away from now on.
I am a bit luckier. I have started participating since 2003 with my sole car "The Lady in Black" and in 2007, I won the Best Maintained Classic Car (II Runner Up).Thanks to the then judge and his judgement.
harit other than Landmasters which we are using as an example here to discuss concours, do enlighten us about your experience with other cars too, so that more teambhpians are benefitted.
Yes most of these judges are "Humpty Dumpty". And since these judges do not go to any court there's no chance of any contempt of court for my labelling them as such!

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 2nd December 2009 at 16:53.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 17:00   #13
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P.S. But I believe prize or no prize, participation in a rally is always a pleasure,if there's a running condition jalopy in your garage thats pleading with you and saying that it needs to go there for the glare and attention that it gets in such events.And most of all, each participating family member enjoys the drive to the hilt.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 18:14   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
one 1956 Landmaster fitted with a 1489 cc, OHV Ambassador engine, got the award for the Best Woman Rally Driver,in the 2007 rally, but the car was not fit enough for a concours event due to that and many other alterations.Its upholstery was original though.Another known face here had twoentries in the 2005 rally- a 1938 Austin 8 (BYJ 539)and a 1957 Fiat 1100 Dukkar (BYJ 187) with the centre light.
You mention the upholstry of the Landmaster was original - could you post some photos for reference? We would also like to see the Austin and Fiat pics. Thanks.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 18:30   #15
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Originally Posted by karlosdeville View Post
You mention the upholstry of the Landmaster was original - could you post some photos for reference? We would also like to see the Austin and Fiat pics. Thanks.
Hi Karl! I do not have the Landmaster upholstery pictures.But promise will get them sometime soon as the owner is well known to me.Its the leather brownish red (tan crimson like) coloured with those thin aluminum strips on the door interiors.This colour was quite popular with the British cars of the day.This one also has the aluminum strip on the inner door upholstery/lining. A specimen picture from an old Minx here:
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The Austin and Fiat pictures are in hard print as the gentleman did not turn up ever since I acquired my digital cam.Will scan them and put them up sure.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 2nd December 2009 at 18:31.
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