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Old 10th January 2010, 20:25   #31
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Originally Posted by harit View Post
I agree with Wasif. This is a nice car, looks very nice f
Hope no offence is taken this time, but nice cars are being overdressed.

Cheers harit
Wasif & Harit

There are a number of interpretations for the term "Restoration", a purist might consider it's meaning bringing the car back to it's exact original condition as it left the factory, same colour, identical fabric and colour etc. But in my experience they are few and far between.

If you recall I said that it had been "transformed" not restored. In retrospect, I should have said that in restoring it, it had been up graded to the Deluxe Model with many of the after market items currently available at that time. Yes it has all the bells and whistle, but it's their car and their choice!

'Their 48 Buick, apart from the Fisher emblems on the doors and a couple other very small details, was impeccably "Restored" in every sense.

We Car Enthusiasts can wear "many hats" and a few have the opportunity to explore many of them. I wish I was one of them and admire any enthusiast who does an impeccable job in whatever style they choose. What makes Team- BHP such a great web site is the Diversity of Interests but the Unity in Sharing. Personally I think this issue is a "Tempest in a Tea Pot".

By nature I have tended to be a "purist" particularly with any of my cars that have been in good original condition. Currently I am trying to find a balance between taking a Purist or a Semi-purist approach with regard to my Fiat. Now that I have more information on the Italian version of the 1100 Deluxe Model I am debating to re-restore it to the Italian Version with leather seats, carpet floor matts etc.

The Purist side says, restore it to how the original owner had "Deluxed" it up, or according to your take on "Restoration, should I strip off the deluxe trim and after market grill and any other items. The other side says go for the works with all the bells and whistles.

For my part I will do, within my terms of "restoration" the best job possible and enjoy it. My biggest problem is what choices to make and before making them, research as much as possible so that when i make them they are as correct as possible, for my satisfaction.

I certainly don't want to prolong this issue as we are here to enjoy of mutual passion for our horse-less carriages.
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Old 10th January 2010, 21:05   #32
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What are you talking about. Overdressing is THE norm out there in Calcutta. All the restorers who have their own personal threads are guilty of this. Just check out the Cadillac posted by John below and the Ford. Also check out the Kanoria Citroen and the Sircar Citroen

I am not demeaning anyone but just pointing out the obvious.

regardsing restoration vs modernisation or customisation i would say there uis only one stance to take.

you can call a car restored if it haas been brought back to the same kind of finish and appearance that it was originally produced with.

A car that has been jazzed up during the course of the restoration is not a restoration but a custom refurbishment.

Now its definitely up to the owner and the restorer what they do to the car but we need to address each job as it would be. Can't call a jazzed up car a restored car and vice versa.

john regarding your choice of what to do with your fiat you are free to do as you choose. If you do it as it ws sold then it will be teermed a restoration, if you mod it to look like an italian version it will not qualify as a restoration.

there is no purist or non pure ist issue but what is termed a restoration and a resto mod or customisation job.

latly this is not a "Tempest in a Teapot" or any form of ridicule or poking fun at the respective restorers and owners but just stating the facts as they should be.

Last edited by wasif : 10th January 2010 at 21:10.
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Old 10th January 2010, 21:16   #33
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Thanks john and predatoronwheelz for the lovely pictures.Its just like being there or the next best thing to being there at Fort William.
The cars are rarely or rather never seen on Kolkata streets.Or maybe, I have never spotted any.As I frequent Kolkata often and move around quite a lot.
The condition and the restoration levels of most cars is outstanding (leave alone the maybe some extra add-ons the owner/restorer likes?)that anyone would think twice while moving around with these machines on the unruly Kolkata traffic.
SUPERB CARS and pictures I would summarise!
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Old 10th January 2010, 21:21   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by predatorwheelz View Post
Rahul Sircar's much photographed rear engined Mercedes 130H
Attachment 261160
predatorwheelz can you tell me more about the Wolsley in the background?
One of my friend's father who was an advocate in Kolkata owned a black one.
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Old 10th January 2010, 21:28   #35
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Here are two of the nicest MGs around.
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Old 10th January 2010, 21:52   #36
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Thanks John for posting those lovely images.

Can our fellow bhpians please write something about which car was the best crowdpuller, which one are new entries, and something more about the motorcycle section also. We, the unfortunate ones who couldn't be there just want to feel and visualize this event so close to our heart through your writing.

Something about the prize giving ceremony, some more images of "not so famous" cars also....

Waiting eagerly for the next post

Regards

And if possible, please mention the name of the restorer along with the owner, which will clear some confusion about the actual ownership of the vehicle.

Last edited by milindajp : 10th January 2010 at 21:59.
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Old 10th January 2010, 22:25   #37
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The 1928 Lancia Di Lambda 3960 cc, was restored about 4 years back by Sanjay. What a magnificent Beast! Would like to drive it through the streets of Calcutta. I understand it was trucked in about 200 miles for Sanjay to breath some life into it and prepare it for the Rally.

I didn't photograph Partho Boses 1926 Auburn so I will post photos I took at last years Tolly Car Show. An unbelievable car and one of Americas Great Classics.
I did photograph a photo board that he had in the front of the car which shows the condition of the car when he dug it up! He should be given a medal just for trying to restore it or locked up! I think the medal is appropriate in this case.

Another "rags to riches" car he did up is this 1946 TC Midget. Again I missed photographing it so forgive me these shots are from the Tolly Show
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Old 10th January 2010, 23:54   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john a milne View Post
Wasif & Harit

There are a number of interpretations for the term "Restoration", a purist might consider it's meaning bringing the car back to it's exact original condition as it left the factory, same colour, identical fabric and colour etc. But in my experience they are few and far between.

If you recall I said that it had been "transformed" not ....................correct as possible, for my satisfaction.

I certainly don't want to prolong this issue as we are here to enjoy of mutual passion for our horse-less carriages.
Dear John,

It is not my intention to belittle the work being done in Calcutta. As I have said, and I mean it, these people are craftesmen, their detailing is superb, but often it goes beyond of what is required. Forget about the AC with its accessories, but do you think they look suitable in any way? If the car were to be cleaned up, just some subtle accessories, it would look so much nicer. These restorers have brought junk back to life, they have revived an old person, but to make them look like teenagers is what we are commenting on.
What you do with your Fiat is entirely upto you, I am stating the obvious. And I am sure that you will get workmnship equivalent to what we see on these cars, impeccable. But once ready, someone may point out that Fiats in India never came like that. Such a comment you would have to live with. And there will be many who will appreciate such work. BTW, for the money which they took, Fiats in India should have come with leather.
If the owner says he wants a car in certain way, no one can stop him. Afterall he is the owner and he pays. But in the case of the MG,s they are certainly over the top. Very very nice to look at, but not authenic. And after restoration they are now being offered for sale, I could forward these "sale"mails to you. So these are not restored at the behest of an owner, they were dolled up for sale.

Each to his own, and each with his own opinions.

Cheers harit

Last edited by harit : 10th January 2010 at 23:56.
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Old 11th January 2010, 10:14   #39
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Hi John.

Could you please post more pics and info on that large red tourer with the black waistband that is seen in one of your pictures of the WW2 Jeep.

Now that Jeep is what a great restoration should be all about. It is so well put to gether as close to its original looks with no embelishments or flights of fancy taken.

Assated by me and Harit its the owners car and teh owners money to do with as they please but if they detract from a proper restoration please be assured their lapses and excesses will be pointed out.

If you recollect I had questioned those white stipes on your Fiat. You had mentioned that this is what a Deluxe Fiat looked like. Now the Deluxe Fiat that looked like that was never officially marketed in India so people are always going to say you added to the car and thats the truth. It looks nice and its your car to do with as you please.

now coming back to the cars could you check with the Lancia Restorer and tell why the car sports those wheels instead of wires. Who is the coachbuilder credited with teh body. Also please post some pictures of teh interiors and the engine .

Last edited by wasif : 11th January 2010 at 10:16.
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Old 11th January 2010, 10:57   #40
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Missed most of the bikes hope more photos of them will be posted.

#74, The one that captivated me is the 650 cc single 1923 Panther Sloper that has been in the family since new. The grandson, Afzal Thakkar, has been working on it himself and it is pride and joy.
#145, A very nice 350 cc 1947 Ariel of Harjit Dhanjal
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Old 11th January 2010, 11:22   #41
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#48 - A 1938 Ford V8 of Nirmal Khaitan.
#83 - A 1942 Ford Jeep of Subhra Gupta.
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Old 11th January 2010, 12:37   #42
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Nice pictures John. Keep them coming. I am very keen on seeing pics of the Lancia engine.

The Ford Tourer is one nice looking car, it is a 1936 model not a 1938, this shape was only available for one year. There is a single owner car identical to this in my family.

that Ariel looks neat, long way from home though. Likewise the Panther is a clean looking bike.
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Old 11th January 2010, 12:53   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
Dear John,

It is not my intention to belittle the work being done in Calcutta. As I have said, and I mean it, these people are craftesmen, their detailing is superb, but often it goes beyond of what is required. Forget about the AC with its accessories, but do you think they look suitable in any way? If the car were to be cleaned up, just some subtle accessories, it would look so much nicer. These restorers have brought junk back to life, they have revived an old person, but to make them look like teenagers is what we are commenting on.
What you do with your Fiat is entirely upto you, I am stating the obvious. And I am sure that you will get workmnship equivalent to what we see on these cars, impeccable. But once ready, someone may point out that Fiats in India never came like that. Such a comment you would have to live with. And there will be many who will appreciate such work. BTW, for the money which they took, Fiats in India should have come with leather.
If the owner says he wants a car in certain way, no one can stop him. Afterall he is the owner and he pays. But in the case of the MG,s they are certainly over the top. Very very nice to look at, but not authenic. And after restoration they are now being offered for sale, I could forward these "sale"mails to you. So these are not restored at the behest of an owner, they were dolled up for sale.

Each to his own, and each with his own opinions.

Cheers harit
Yes the Cars in Calcutta have tended to be embellished unnecessarily and it's been my mission here as a semi-purist to encourage them to "de-clutter" their cars. "Less is More" and I am pleased to see some progress. There has always been a serious competition amongst the bigger collectors as they vie for Trophies and that has resulted in the current state.

Having been a judge for a number of years has given some weight to my suggestions and I see less and less of the unnecessary stuff being added. The issue of all the Club Badges I raised at one of the Judges meetings a few years back and as it had become a "fixture" it was felt that in the event of two cars being tied for a major trophy then the question of the Club Badges would be addressed. My suggested criteria was it the badge had been on the car when purchased, as I found on my Fiat when I purchased it or if they were a member of the club then that was ok.

I was pleased to see that Sanjay had removed his two spot lights from his 47 Buick for this years Statesman. I'm still working on having him remove the badges on his 32 Ford.

Regarding my Fiat, the trim is "authentic" and an "aftermarket item" available at the time and the blue colour I have yet to confirm if it was offered in India but was a colour offered by Fiat in Europe and is considered an original colour. I am currently trying to identify the correct paint colour reference for Fiats built in India to assist anyone wanting to take the purist approach in their restoration. Personally I'm debating if I want to restore it to the European Deluxe Model.

I've been an active member of the Jaguar Clubs of North America and the British Car Club since 1980, attending and competing in Concourses in both Canada and in the U.S. In 2002 our 1968 MK11-340 was a North American Champion placing 2nd with 99.783 pts. in Preservation Class #18 based on f.o.b. factory condition standards and in 4th with 99.536 pts. in Championship Class #9 for MK11s that had been Restored. The score sheets are three pages long and based on 1000 pts. I've attended many MG events as well with a friend of mine who has a number of them.

I've mentioned this in response to your comments that the two MGs "were not authentic". I've watched these cars being restored using only MG after market parts The MGA had been previously owned by Shashi many years ago and now is part of his own collection as is the TC.

Both these cars if shown in any North American MG Concourse Competitions, I would expect that they would be judged as 99.+pt. Cars.
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Old 11th January 2010, 14:12   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
Nice pictures John. Keep them coming. I am very keen on seeing pics of the Lancia engine.

The Ford Tourer is one nice looking car, it is a 1936 model not a 1938, this shape was only available for one year. There is a single owner car identical to this in my family.
I checked with Sanjay and it is on it's way back home,

I pulled the info on the Ford from the Statesman's Car list and wonder if the judges picked up the incorrect date. Have you posted any photos of your car?

There is a wonderful Douglas motorcycle, not sure if it showed up this year as I wasn't there on Sunday, The owners have it registered as a 1930 model this year even though M. Pook, the Chief Judge, had done a search three years ago and showed them photos of similar models that were 1918 vintage. As I recall it was had a straight 4 engine. Not sure I have photos in my files will take a look.
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Old 11th January 2010, 16:04   #45
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Hi John.

I don't have pictures of the Ford in my family, will try to get some and post shortly.

Would love to see pics of that four cylinder Douglas if you can find them.

Do try to get some info and pics of the Lancia.
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