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Old 10th March 2010, 17:49   #1
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Default RTO Documentation for Vintage/Classics

Folks I am putting up this thread to help people discuss/opine/help/support/lobby on issues of documentation of Vintage & Classics. I think the RTO is one big abyss for common folks. So lets get the discussion going
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Old 10th March 2010, 18:02   #2
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Could somebody tell me after how many years a car/ bike is considered a vintage?
Does the vehicle have to get fitness certificates from RTO after making it to the vintage category?
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Old 10th March 2010, 18:19   #3
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Originally Posted by topedgemonk View Post
Could somebody tell me after how many years a car/ bike is considered a vintage?
Does the vehicle have to get fitness certificates from RTO after making it to the vintage category?
there is no provision like classic/vintage in MVact.
and you need to have fitness certificate for any motor vehicle to ply on the roads

Last edited by Dippy : 12th March 2010 at 10:01. Reason: Correcting quote
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Old 10th March 2010, 20:39   #4
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Originally Posted by ajay99 View Post
This was bound to happen sooner or later,considering the malpraxis and "" RC book FOISTING" which was being done rampantly especially in some southern states, anyway the Karnataka MVD has done a good thing if they have really made strict the rules regarding registration of out of state classic and vintage vehicles.Hope they somehow curb the illegal practice of unauthorised "etching"" of engine numbers in the name of restoration.
as some one else mentioned some time back ,in kerala there was move not to give NOC to cars which are part of kerala heritage(eg:royal cars, dewan cars,etc)
You sound more of a Non enthusiastic Automobile freak.

Many on this planet, try hard to save a classic or Vintage. The only reasons why people etch the engine number are:

1) Most of the classic and vintages are out of production vehicles,

2) RTO needs the new engine purchase invoice,wherin new engines cost a bomb since they are rare.

3) Importing those engines apart from being pricey, is difficult to ship them, since bulky and clearing customs one would end up paying twice the price of it, save all the other headaches involved.

4) Existing engines would be in such a bad state, that overhaul will never see that engine fire life ever again.

Request you to be considerate when punching such replies.

Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 10th March 2010 at 20:41.
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Old 10th March 2010, 21:02   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
You sound more of a Non enthusiastic Automobile freak.

Many on this planet, try hard to save a classic or Vintage. The only reasons why people etch the engine number are:

1) Most of the classic and vintages are out of production vehicles,

2) RTO needs the new engine purchase invoice,wherin new engines cost a bomb since they are rare.

3) Importing those engines apart from being pricey, is difficult to ship them, since bulky and clearing customs one would end up paying twice the price of it, save all the other headaches involved.

4) Existing engines would be in such a bad state, that overhaul will never see that engine fire life ever again.

Request you to be considerate when punching such replies.
The 4 reasons listed abpve are genuine reasons , but they are not the only reasons for ''etching"" as mentioned.
One major reason many ""engine numbers '' as well as in many even occassions "chassiss nos' are also being etched are lack of proper documentation. this I will explain in detail with a ''caveat emptor"' --this is not associated with any vehicle which has been discussed in this forum,any similarity is purely coincidental"".
A VW 1300 sedan of 1966 was bought by a person without documents ,he restored it using a different specs(cubic capacity) engine sourced from another VW. The car was put up for sale using a document procured from a scrapped VW and the engine and chassiss number just etched as per that document Unfortunately this document (RC) was of a 1969 model. Since the RTO guys dont know the difference between these models it is cleared and fitness etc issued.ultimately the noveau enthusiast who bought it at a premium price will be the one who will be hoodwinked.
Will the so called real ""enthusiasts"" want this to happen?

regarding whether I am an '' enthusiast"' or a ""NON Enthusiast Automobile freaK"', I think that it is not the prerorogative of any particular person to decide.

Last edited by Dippy : 12th March 2010 at 09:28. Reason: Correcting quote
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Old 10th March 2010, 21:16   #6
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Ajay , I need to change the engine in my old Fiat car cos there is a hole in the barrel/cylinder and water from the cooling system is leaking into the cylinder. There is a secondhand engine available but no bill with it. What am I supposed to do after I fit it on my car? How do I get the new number endorsed in the rto books?
Thanks in advance
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Old 11th March 2010, 01:37   #7
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Can someone please list the documents needed. Also is it possible to retrieve lost documents from the RTO by any chance?
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Old 11th March 2010, 09:27   #8
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Originally Posted by khanak View Post
Can someone please list the documents needed. Also is it possible to retrieve lost documents from the RTO by any chance?
yes it is possible to retrieve the data from the RTO ,if you have any of these.
1.Registration No.
2.Photocopy of the original documents
You can apply for the Registration Particulars after giving the prescribed fee.
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Old 11th March 2010, 09:32   #9
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Originally Posted by deutscheafrikar View Post
Ajay , I need to change the engine in my old Fiat car cos there is a hole in the barrel/cylinder and water from the cooling system is leaking into the cylinder. There is a secondhand engine available but no bill with it. What am I supposed to do after I fit it on my car? How do I get the new number endorsed in the rto books?
Thanks in advance
You are legally permitted to replace the cars engine with the similar specs engine of the same model without change of Fuel type.
You can give an Undertaking that the engine bought by you was purchased legally and that the car which the engine was installed was scrapped much before.Then there should be no difficulty in getting that particular engine endorsed in the RC books.
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Old 11th March 2010, 11:31   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay99 View Post
yes it is possible to retrieve the data from the RTO ,if you have any of these.
1.Registration No.
2.Photocopy of the original documents
You can apply for the Registration Particulars after giving the prescribed fee.
I have a suggestion for this thread. Please note, these RTO's are a state subject, there are different sets of rules for different states, though there is a Motor Vehicle act 1939.
If what goes in Maharashtra MAY not go in Karnataka, and other states.

So the suggestion is that when you inform something, please specify the state this is applicable in. For example, I know for a fact that you cannot retrieve data in Delhi, Mumbai, Goa, West Bengal. The reasons are many, fires, book worms (not the studying types, the ones that bore through paper) and sheer negligence of dumping records and not maintaining them in order. I believe that Kerala is very organised in this, they even have an online fascility.
In Mumbai you can apply for the registration particulars after giving the prescribed fee only to be told that records are not available. And the fee is not refundable. So if anyone has a problem with RTO Mumbai docs, he is welcome to ask me for guidance, better in advance.
In Maharashtra we can get old cars registered quite easily, unlike Karnataka.

Cheers harit

Last edited by harit : 11th March 2010 at 11:35.
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Old 11th March 2010, 11:59   #11
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[quote=ajay99;1776072]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post

The 4 reasons listed abpve are genuine reasons , but they are not the only reasons for ''etching"" as mentioned.
One major reason many ""engine numbers '' as well as in many even occassions "chassiss nos' are also being etched are lack of proper documentation. this I will explain in detail with a ''caveat emptor"' --this is not associated with any vehicle which has been discussed in this forum,any similarity is purely coincidental"".
A VW 1300 sedan of 1966 was bought by a person without documents ,he restored it using a different specs(cubic capacity) engine sourced from another VW. The car was put up for sale using a document procured from a scrapped VW and the engine and chassiss number just etched as per that document Unfortunately this document (RC) was of a 1969 model. Since the RTO guys dont know the difference between these models it is cleared and fitness etc issued.ultimately the noveau enthusiast who bought it at a premium price will be the one who will be hoodwinked.
Will the so called real ""enthusiasts"" want this to happen?

regarding whether I am an '' enthusiast"' or a ""NON Enthusiast Automobile freaK"', I think that it is not the prerorogative of any particular person to decide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay99 View Post
You are legally permitted to replace the cars engine with the similar specs engine of the same model without change of Fuel type.
You can give an Undertaking that the engine bought by you was purchased legally and that the car which the engine was installed was scrapped much before.Then there should be no difficulty in getting that particular engine endorsed in the RC books.
Very contrasting and contradictory statement by one single person. Did you go through your previous post.

In Karnataka, any sort of personally hand written letter or undertaking will not work.

Its either legal ( Buy an engine with Invoice) or anything other than this is illegal.

As Harit mentioned, RTO rules vary from state to state. Many such cars in Karnataka are running without updated papers, but this is done since you can do very little with the RTO. Its illegal, but not many can do anything about it.
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Old 11th March 2010, 12:33   #12
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Kadam & Ajay I have genuine request why don't you guys either kiss and make up or at least avoid using every single opportunity to take digs directly/indirectly at each other It is becoming obvious. I have already tried offline/individually with each of you now I am doing it here.

Both of you are very knowledgeable/insightful so don't just decide to disagree on every damn thing so far I see good valuable info. So how about it?

Last edited by canonball : 11th March 2010 at 12:35.
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Old 11th March 2010, 17:34   #13
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[quote=PAVAN KADAM;1776930]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay99 View Post



Very contrasting and contradictory statement by one single person. Did you go through your previous post.

In Karnataka, any sort of personally hand written letter or undertaking will not work.

Its either legal ( Buy an engine with Invoice) or anything other than this is illegal.

As Harit mentioned, RTO rules vary from state to state. Many such cars in Karnataka are running without updated papers, but this is done since you can do very little with the RTO. Its illegal, but not many can do anything about it.
There is nothing contrasting or contradictory between the 2 posts.I have never ever said that I am against engine replacement in genuine situations.I have only said that you can legally change the engine ,by getting the engine number of the engine you are fiiting ,endorsed on the RC book.
If the Karnataka MVD is not accepting engines without invoice,they may have a specific reason for it. You may find it out.

Last edited by ajay99 : 11th March 2010 at 17:36.
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Old 11th March 2010, 17:38   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canonball View Post
Kadam & Ajay I have genuine request why don't you guys either kiss and make up or at least avoid using every single opportunity to take digs directly/indirectly at each other It is becoming obvious. I have already tried offline/individually with each of you now I am doing it here.

Both of you are very knowledgeable/insightful so don't just decide to disagree on every damn thing so far I see good valuable info. So how about it?
Thats sweet of you.


[quote=ajay99;1777752]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post

There is nothing contrasting or contradictory between the 2 posts.I have never ever said that I am against engine replacement in genuine situations.I have only said that you can legally change the engine ,by getting the engine number of the engine you are fiiting ,endorsed on the RC book.
If the Karnataka MVD is not accepting engines without invoice,they may have a specific reason for it. You may find it out.

There is a ruling, no one can have any say in this issue. And i am talking about Karnataka alone.

How about other states.
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Old 11th March 2010, 17:40   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
I have a suggestion for this thread. Please note, these RTO's are a state subject, there are different sets of rules for different states, though there is a Motor Vehicle act 1939.
If what goes in Maharashtra MAY not go in Karnataka, and other states.

So the suggestion is that when you inform something, please specify the state this is applicable in. For example, I know for a fact that you cannot retrieve data in Delhi, Mumbai, Goa, West Bengal. The reasons are many, fires, book worms (not the studying types, the ones that bore through paper) and sheer negligence of dumping records and not maintaining them in order. I believe that Kerala is very organised in this, they even have an online fascility.
In Mumbai you can apply for the registration particulars after giving the prescribed fee only to be told that records are not available. And the fee is not refundable. So if anyone has a problem with RTO Mumbai docs, he is welcome to ask me for guidance, better in advance.
In Maharashtra we can get old cars registered quite easily, unlike Karnataka.

Cheers harit
to most of what you have said,except for a minor correction.The Motor Vehicle ACT was overhauled and amended and is now known as MOTOR VEHICLE ACT ,1989
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