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Old 9th February 2011, 13:26   #46
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

Dear Harit and Bulldogji, you are both right in many ways.

However I feel a little bit of healthy competition never harmed anyone, and for that reason alone I feel that prizes encourage people to maintain/restore their cars. Those who do not wish to compete have the choice not to do so.

This year I made no attempt to go for the judging as I was not satisfied with the preparedness of putting my car in front a bunch of judges (good/bad). That having been said what really irritates me is that VCCCI invents and removes categories of judging literally at will. This year it was the unannounced "Indian Heritage category" why not announce a category when you distribute forms. Last year when my 1956 Fiat was freshly restored she had to be relegated into the non-classics category, yet I was not informed that I should not be getting her for judging. I drove all the way from Central Mumbai for the judges who appreciated the car but expressed their regret to award any points as she was category less. Two years ago my Rover met the same fate she was mistakenly categorized as a recent classic, judged and then the category was made ineligible for any prizes. Again my quib is not whether the cars deserved to get prizes or not but rather with the disdain with which people are treated by the organizers. If this continues commoners like me may soon loose interest and make no efforts to present more than one car at the event. (I took three last year).
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Old 9th February 2011, 14:08   #47
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

Hi Mole,many are ready to find faults with nitin and the way rallies are organized.But how many of us actually volunter to help him?Yes it has become a one man show, because most of us are too busy with our own work and life to come forward and assist.Lets ask all friends to put everything aside, meet with nitin and allocate responsibilities for the forthcoming poona rally/and all future rallies.I am certain all genuine offers to help will be welcome.The question ..how many will volunteer??
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Old 9th February 2011, 14:29   #48
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

Bulldogji, maybe, just maybe I never said that judging was good/perfect/top of the world. I have had the Maharaja judge say that the engine in my Fiat 509 was not original. That was in an event in, around 1982(?) that event was held at Nariman Point. All I was trying to do was to point out that this time the judge was a person of integrity, he was different than judges before. I was not present at the judging, so I do not know if he made errors in this event, and neither have you pointed out errors being made in this event, if any.
I was also focussing on the categories of prizes, and who awards them, you did not comment on that. I was trying to say that these "Joker" prizes are not decided by a judge, but the organiser. the mole made his point here.
I may be wrong, never having been present at an international event, but normally there are supposed to be a minimum number of judges, who do consult each other and so reduce the errors.
Your observations about sales pitch during judging are echoed in my post on the 1st Cartier event of two years ago. And I have always spoken about it being improper to give prizes to cars that do not run the round. So there is really not much we are in disagreement with.

I did mention in my previous post about the presence of tbhpians and an opportunity to atleast comment. Not much forthcoming on the tricky points mentioned in my post.
And I will add that inspite of all, we always have a lovely time, being among the cars and the friends, and that is why we come, politics be damned. Take away the fun quotient and you will see a drop in presence.

Cheers harit
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Old 9th February 2011, 16:04   #49
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogji View Post
Many are ready to find faults with nitin and the way rallies are organized.But how many of us actually volunter to help him?Yes it has become a one man show, because most of us are too busy with our own work and life to come forward and assist.
Dear Bulldogji,

There is no doubt in anyones/my mind that Mr Dossa is doing the best he can. And we could not ask for more. I can imagine the hell he has to go through chasing politicos, bureaucrats and their cronies knowing how it is to put anything like this in place in a city like Mumbai. In this aspect he really walks for in shoes that would be very difficult for anyone to fit in. But I am sure he can do with help right?

I agree that the younger generation needs to step forward and have a one on one with him. Now how do we do that? Well one could have Fiat Club like informal meetings every third of the month at the WIAA office or anywhere else. Enthusiasts can meet, discuss (don't have to eat) and most importantly act on how we can take this movement ahead as a group rather than on an individual.

Oh yes I am raising my hand
regards
the mole
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Old 9th February 2011, 16:32   #50
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

I could line up 5 people in 5 mins who would be more than happy to help Nitin uncle in organizing the rallies/events. in fact, we would be more than happy to help rather than participate. Its all for the cars at the end. it is our ever lasting love that makes us come together.
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Old 9th February 2011, 18:24   #51
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogji View Post
Hi Mole,many are ready to find faults with nitin and the way rallies are organized.But how many of us actually volunter to help him?Yes it has become a one man show, because most of us are too busy with our own work and life to come forward and assist.Lets ask all friends to put everything aside, meet with nitin and allocate responsibilities for the forthcoming poona rally/and all future rallies.I am certain all genuine offers to help will be welcome.The question ..how many will volunteer??
I saw this post only now, it was not there when I started writing my post 48.
There is no question of anyone volunteering to help, volunteers are kept out and only selected cozy pals are in the inner circle. Has VCCCI ever asked for volunteers? Even the VCCCI President was out, and so was almost the entire committee. Initially I had asked to join the inner circle, I was told sorry, we are full. And then the inner circle changed shape as per convenience. Does anyone remember that there was a joint secretary? On what basis was this post created? Any resolution can be seen? Somehow, I have been in touch with VCCCI secretary and members and have been talking to a lot of people continuously since VCCCI inception. It was created arbitrarily, and functions arbitrarily, and one is accepted not by credentials of enthusiasm, but by criteria best known to VCCCI.
For example, VCCCI badly needs volunteers to do something to cars donated to VCCCI. (Yes, these exist in some kind of state). Since VCCCI could not preserve them, they should ask for volunteers. Just as the level of organisation of the January 30th event prompted a discussion on volunteers, and apparently showed that volunteers indeed are required. But are they welcome?
To put some solid mass to my stand on this, I entered 4 cars, paid fees, even though I could not be in town. This was done for the event, it can surely be considered as a kind of volunteering help to have good cars with numbers at the event.
Proof that politics and personal agenda do spoil the scenario.

Cheers harit

Last edited by harit : 9th February 2011 at 18:29.
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Old 9th February 2011, 20:07   #52
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

I have in my earlier posts appreciated the efforts of Mr. Dossa and all the others (i dont know all, but a few who help him). I will add my two bits here, not in the position of a collector of any standing (when there are people like Bulldogji and Harit to name a few) but as a pure enthusiast. I tend to agree and disagree on certain issues as pointed out by Harit, Bulldogji and The Mole.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogji View Post
.....to retierate that our judges are just not knowledgeable about all makes and models.For example.often I have heard our self stylied experts stating that post war rolls and bentleys NEVER came with metallic paint.Even after telling them that I have copies of build sheets confirming metallic shades..
I will agree on this. I was shaken when in one event a non vehicle was given the most unique vehicle prize. Yes i am speaking of the so called 1939 VW Tempo. Any judge which even accepted this mish mash and a kitsch of a vehicle should be ashamed of himself and not be allowed anywhere near a judge's stand. I speak strongly and surely because according to my limited knowledge there is no such vehicle. Please i will stand corrected if i am proven wrong.

Here i am questioning the knowledge of the judge/s or maybe their i care a damn attitude. A vehicle cannot be allowed merely on its uniqueness. How can one even allow it to be judged? There is a similar vehicle, an original tempo in Goa but it has a different engine, interiors and also no VW badging.

I have also seen judges confronting Amol at an event asking him whether his body colour and upholstery were from that era. Just because he had all papers and pics ready to show the judge and to hide his own embarrassment, he never gave Amol's beauty even a mention. Remember Amol?

Yes some judges, like those who profess not to check a car because it was restored by "them" cannot say they know everything. Egos should be kept out like egocentric judges. Such people get partial only because they think no one will question their authority. Sad!!


Quote:
Cars are judged for cosmetics and the owner/restorer sales pitch.How many cars have been judged for mechanical excellence?
I feel judging standards should change.
I think this time around there were so many cars worthy of competing in the mechanical excellence category.

Frankly Bulldogji, i find your cars in great mechanical shape. The others were Ifran Moghul's Chevys. The purr of the straight six of his red 59 beauty just stole my heart. Fantastic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the mole View Post
....a little bit of healthy competition never harmed anyone, and for that reason alone I feel that prizes encourage people to maintain/restore their cars. Those who do not wish to compete have the choice not to do so.
I agree, its like getting recognition for the labour of love. A proud moment for the owner and restorer, if they are separate persons.
Like Harit said, i like the idea of giving everyone a momento. Let the prizes be for the selected and deserving cars.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogji View Post
Hi Mole,many are ready to find faults with nitin and the way rallies are organized.But how many of us actually volunter to help him?
Yes i was going to come to this Bulldogji, im glad you bought it up.
Ill take the next three quotes together and then answer.


Quote:
Yes it has become a one man show, because most of us are too busy with our own work and life to come forward and assist.Lets ask all friends to put everything aside, meet with nitin and allocate responsibilities for the forthcoming poona rally/and all future rallies.
[quote=the mole;2238744]
There is no doubt in anyones/my mind that Mr Dossa is doing the best he can.............
......I agree that the younger generation needs to step forward and have a one on one with him. Now how do we do that? Well one could have Fiat Club like informal meetings every third of the month at the WIAA office or anywhere else. Enthusiasts can meet, discuss (don't have to eat) and most importantly act on how we can take this movement ahead as a group rather than on an individual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
There is no question of anyone volunteering to help, volunteers are kept out and only selected cozy pals are in the inner circle. Has VCCCI ever asked for volunteers? Even the VCCCI President was out, and so was almost the entire committee........Initially I had asked to join the inner circle, I was told sorry, we are full. And then the inner circle changed shape as per convenience.
Harit maybe you should have not asked to be in the "Inner Circle"


Yes Mr. Dossa is doing a great job....of what he can do by himself!
Yes he would be able to do a greater job if he had help.
Yes he is almost alone

But then i agree with Harit on this one. Let him ask for help. Let him choose volunteers from within the community. He knows almost everyone, well everyone who matters knows him. I realize he is doing almost single handedly what he is doing but is it because no one is volunteering?? I think not. I think because he has not expressed his desire to reach out to anyone. Maybe due to some bad taste from some prior experience, maybe he just likes to work alone, i dont know and im not guessing. But let me know of a single incident where there was a call for volunteers and it was refused. Let there not be a public call, let him and the others choose people who would be volunteers for jobs delegated to them. Responsibility which can be overseen by him. Delegation is the way to go.

Let Mr. Dossa form a few sub committees by choosing his team from his known people, who will head these sub committees. Let there be an area delegated to each of them and then, let those sub committee heads choose their own team. Hold a monthly meeting of the heads only to report about the progress after all the heads agree to a date, say the third Saturday of every month @ 5 pm @ some place. If need be, call a few members from those committes for some additional interaction. In anyways email has made the world so close. All heads in the meanwhile can interact with Mr. Dossa by email all through the week so that everyone is on the same plain when they meet for a meeting. How difficult is that? Trust me once this is done there will be an influx of people who would make a beeline to help. The point to be stressed here is DO not make egotistical persons committee heads or else we go back to square one.

Just a suggestion from an enthusiast, not to be taken in any other way please.

Guys people like me and Amol are not looking for recognition. We thankfully have a lot of that in our own respective fields by the grace of God and the blessings of out elders. We are passionate towards a certain movement and would like to see it be the best it can become. These sub committees are all informal. No bringing politics and the company's law in here, therefore it is of utmost importance to bring in people who are known and trusted to those who are bringing them in.

But remember, volunteers are enthusiasts and not servants. You treat them like crap and you are alone.

Quote:
I am certain all genuine offers to help will be welcome.The question ..how many will volunteer??
Quote:
Oh yes I am raising my hand
There you have one from the forum itself.
Add another Me!!

Just a post from an enthusiast. Strictly not to be misunderstood as any other sentiment!!
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Old 10th February 2011, 00:13   #53
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

The yellow car is a Ferrari 308 right? Pics please!

Is it the same one which used to be red earlier?
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Old 10th February 2011, 12:45   #54
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogji View Post
Hi Mole,many are ready to find faults with nitin and the way rallies are organized.But how many of us actually volunter to help him?Yes it has become a one man show, because most of us are too busy with our own work and life to come forward and assist.Lets ask all friends to put everything aside, meet with nitin and allocate responsibilities for the forthcoming poona rally/and all future rallies.I am certain all genuine offers to help will be welcome.The question ..how many will volunteer??
Dear Bulldogji, Many of us do volunter to help organize and do the odd running around that we do not expect Nitin uncle to do. There were some who used to do the Route survey and prepare the Tulips, not only for the Bombay rally but have also gone upto Pakistan for the Peace Rally (i think this is what it was to be named). The expenses were born by the volunteers and not by VCCCI, this does allow you to know that enthusiast who do want to help are there for the calling.

A few years ago Kasli had organised a drive along with friends and recently the same effort was revived by me. The sole idea was that friends meet once a month for a drive, enjoy a good conversation over breakfast and stretch the legs of their cars. The first run saw 5 cars and the last one had 20 cars. We had also planned exhibitions and other events. The reason for telling you this is that a few of us had the intention to club it in with the VCCCI callender, so as to give VCCCI monthly events. It was a win win for both, the club as well as the owners of vintage and classic cars. When i did come across Nitin uncle i did recieve a cold shoulder and continue to do so along with unpleasent remarks at that time. I volunteerd in my own capacity to get things started and to take things forward, mind you none of us asked VCCCI to bare any expenses for anything. As Gogi bhai has mentioned, we only wanted a Sub committee formed to keep things in sink with VCCCI. I dont think it was too much to ask.

You did mention of people not Voluntering. Well i know of atleast 15 people who would be there to help. All it takes is to get the ego out of the way and make a few calls. I would be there for sure.

What i do not understand is, why the insecurity?, no one is trying to replace VCCCI. All we are trying to do is bring the enthusiasm back with give it a younger flavour. It is always said you move with time and forward, not go back in time.
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Old 10th February 2011, 13:00   #55
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

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Is it the same one which used to be red earlier?
Dippy did just mention to me that it is the same car that used to be Red.

cya
R
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Old 10th February 2011, 13:06   #56
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

At least my posts have got people voicing their minds.Great to know voluteers are available,ready and willing.How about meeting Nitin and having free and frank exchange of ideas?Can we request Maraspand to organize this?I am happy to host this whenever..
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Old 10th February 2011, 14:09   #57
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

Ok Guys i think we are all moving of topic and i am as guilty as you all. This thread is formed to showcase the cars and vehicles in the Fiesta on the said date so lets stick to that aspect only.

As said earlier, i am as guilty as all of you to have taken this thread off topic. Henceforth i request everyone to keep to the sanctity of this thread and not post off topic anymore. IMHO enough has been said from our side and if the VCCCI team would like to take our help, i think they will have enough selfless volunteers. We are all from the same family and share a common passion.

Please keep the pics rolling and the discussion on the vehicles only. Thanks!!
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Old 10th February 2011, 15:28   #58
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayabusa View Post
The yellow car is a Ferrari 308 right? Pics please!

Is it the same one which used to be red earlier?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
Dippy did just mention to me that it is the same car that used to be Red.

cya
R
One of India's most commonly seen Ferraris. That car has seen almost every single VCCCI rally in the past and yes, it used to be red.
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Old 10th February 2011, 15:43   #59
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

Somehow i think the Red looked far better than the present yellow, though yellow is also a very common Ferrari colour.
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Old 10th February 2011, 15:49   #60
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Default Re: 2011 Vintage Car & Motorcycle Fiesta (Mumbai, 30th Jan 2011)

Lots of people have criticised the change in color. The red had started to somehow lose its appeal though. But it is a personal choice. Id have the yellow too.
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