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Old 6th April 2011, 09:55   #151
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Default Re: Cartier "Travel with Style" Concourse d' Elegance 2011

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The Nizam's Rolls was all bling , it may have been exotica to a visitor to the event , but , to the aficianado , the car seemed to have lost it's spirit between the initial pictures posted by DKG and what was presented at Delhi , surprisingly it went away with some sort of a prize , I do not know how it scored for detailing and research by the owner.
I still maintain it was a huge blunder on the part of the owner to agree to restoring the Rolls. Its lost something very very special. Sadly they will now make an even bigger blunder by restoring the remaining cars.

They've already buggered up the entire carriage collection. On my last visit I was silently horrified to see them all painted and upholstered looking so awful. These were all meant to be just museum displays. The display's value is in its age and the fact that they represented a window into a 100 year existence. You don't go and touch up a painting with fresh colours do you, just because its become faded ? Crazy !!!

I guess we have to reconcile to the Nizam's collection eventually going from being a 100 plus year old treasure to a full size scale model Franklin Mint collection !!

I cannot even begin to explain how deeply absurd it is to restore these cars. I urge all of you who haven't seen the rest of the collection to visit and experience what 100 year old weathered cars look like untouched before they bugger it all up.

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Old 6th April 2011, 10:04   #152
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I still maintain it was a huge blunder on the part of the owner to agree to restoring the Rolls. Its lost something very very special. Sadly they will now make an even bigger blunder by restoring the remaining cars.

I guess we have to reconcile to the Nizam's collection eventually going from being a 100 plus year old treasure to a full size scale model Franklin Mint collection !!

I cannot even begin to explain how deeply absurd it is to restore these cars. I urge all of you who haven't seen the rest of the collection to visit and experience what 100 year old weathered cars look like untouched before they bugger it all up.
DKG ....what is the mileage on the other cars, can you do an individual assesment of each in the appropriate thread. Have all these cars seen serious use ? are they in thei original conditions or have they been repainted / tweaked at some point.

One thing I disagree with you on is how the RR looks today, just compare it now with pictures of it on that flatbed and tell me which one looks more regal and befitting of the Nizam. Such wonderfull original lines were so obscured and now we can see it in its original beauty
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Old 6th April 2011, 10:16   #153
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DKG ....what is the mileage on the other cars, can you do an individual assesment of each in the appropriate thread. Have all these cars seen serious use ? are they in thei original conditions or have they been repainted / tweaked at some point.
The Napiers are part of an order of 6 or 7 Napiers ordered in one shot. I have pictures of these when they left England and going by what they looked like brand new they seem untouched or unmeddled with. The Wolsely had some upholstery done, possibly in the 70's and it looks awful. Original upholstery in the Napiers and Fiat has a charm of its own. I don't remember the mileages but I am pretty sure they would be a couple of thousand kms at the most. The cars at the most would have shunted between the palaces in the old city and at the most the Residency.

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just compare it now with pictures of it on that flatbed and tell me which one looks more regal and befitting of the Nizam. Such wonderfull original lines were so obscured and now we can see it in its original beauty
There is no denying the original iteration is gorgeous. But for the second time around, now that the car is here in Hyderabad, I tried to gaze at the car to see if I was being difficult in resisting the restoration and this time around I was convinced its become boring to look at. Its just lost its appeal. Its a 100 year old car and nothing about it looks 100 years old. That is what has been lost. Its really sad no one thought of this aspect that an exhibit has been ruined. Its like someone saying Golconda Fort Zenana mahal is better off being reconstructed than letting the ruins remain. Where on Earth do you see ruins being reconstructed just because the original form looked prettier? Its against the principles of archaeology and museum exhibit preservation.

I am not debating if the car looked prettier then as compared to now. There is no debate on that score. You are 100% correct in your assertion its way too pretty now than it was. BUT and this is a very important BUT, its lost something very very precious. Its 100 year old look. For apart from the modifications there was a lot that was still what left the Barker works. That is all gone.

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Old 6th April 2011, 10:31   #154
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Default Re: Cartier "Travel with Style" Concourse d' Elegance 2011

The Rolls in no to be confused with with a archeological monument, its a car and cars do get restored, even 100 year old cars and come out looking like new. Just look at AX 201 for example AND the TTK Chevy you restored. Why did you take the pains to bring it to factory condition if doing so ruined its aged look and patina ?

its a choice you have to make, keep it as found and forever loose the beauty of what it looked like or do it up to exactly as it was as new so you have a 100 year old thing of beauty to ook at.

I was agains the restoration plan initially but having seen the car now I think the family took the right dicision, its come out well, not too loud and gaudy as say that Stutz for comparison. Now the future generations from Hyderabad will be able to admire the car for its beauty and the good taste of Mahboob Ali Pasha who ordered it.

You must admit the changes made to the car were ghastly, totally detracted from its looks. Now its not even sure if the Nizam actually ordered these changes or were they done at the workshop by the people who thought they were doing a good job of modernzing it.

So the work done to make it more modern way back can't be actually said to have been done on exacting directives from the Nizam. Moreover it was not his car to tamper with, it was ordered by his father so it should have been left as is in the first place.

I think for the silver jublee the car was just taken out and worked on, the Nizam might not have even been aware that this was being done let along approved the plans or drawings for the new look. I am sure thsi was not the only Rolls in their garages at the time of teh celebration and I really wonder what made them take this one out and do what they did to it.
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Old 6th April 2011, 10:47   #155
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Default Re: Cartier "Travel with Style" Concourse d' Elegance 2011

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AND the TTK Chevy you restored. Why did you take the pains to bring it to factory condition if doing so ruined its aged look and patina ?
Wasif, I reckon you mean TVS chevy (MDR 200)? But that car wasnt really in its original state either, it was in fact done up rather poorly before DKG restored it- the spokes, radiator cowl painted silver etc.
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Old 6th April 2011, 10:50   #156
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Wasif, I reckon you mean TVS chevy (MDR 200)? But that car wasnt really in its original state either, it was in fact done up rather poorly before DKG restored it- the spokes, radiator cowl painted silver etc.
Yes I menat the TVS Chevy AND it was exactly in a similar messed up condition as was teh Nizams RR wouldn't you agree
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Old 6th April 2011, 10:59   #157
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Yes I menat the TVS Chevy AND it was exactly in a similar messed up condition as was teh Nizams RR wouldn't you agree
IMHO, it was worse than the RR- the Nizam's RR mod-job atleast reflected, to put in the local lingo, 'class', whereas the chevy's reflected 'mass' (and therefore deserved to be restored the way she has been.)
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Old 6th April 2011, 11:02   #158
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But that car wasnt really in its original state...the spokes, radiator cowl painted silver etc.
You are correct Shyam. The car was repainted (rather poorly) and changes made over the years to keep it road going. It had become a sorry excuse of a Chevy. Now its atleast honouring its pedigree as a Chevy.

Further there is no point in preserving neglect. The Chevy was worn down and neglected. The Nizam's car remains a practically brand new car that is 100 years old and was never neglected. Its just been stored securely for all these years. And the alterations were for a very special reason, the Silver Jubilee celebrations. That was historic by any standards and the car in that new form (albeit hideous) was a special part of the function that year. That was worth preserving in my opinion.

I suppose there will always be two schools of thought who will endlessly debate whether the Nizam's cars should be restored.

I'll just share this that when I first saw these cars and my jaw dropped to the floor on realising I was in the presence of 100 year old cars mostly untouched it was such a deeply special experience. That was way too precious an experience for me. Now all I can say is no one else who sees the car will enjoy experiencing that special feeling of being in the presence of history. You stand close to the Napiers you will still feel it.

But then I realise its just my opinion and I am hardly an expert on museum exhibit preservation to state with certainty that what was done is inappropriate. My personal view is that it was a huge blunder and I stand by such an observation.

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Old 6th April 2011, 11:10   #159
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Default Re: Cartier "Travel with Style" Concourse d' Elegance 2011

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IMHO, it was worse than the RR- the Nizam's RR mod-job atleast reflected, to put in the local lingo, 'class', whereas the chevy's reflected 'mass' (and therefore deserved to be restored the way she has been.)

Your opinion on whether teh RR deserved to be restored or kept as was ?

If restoration was such a BAD thing then why do people restore cars anyway ?
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Old 6th April 2011, 11:31   #160
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Here's an example of what I personally consider a sympathetic restoration whereby the original look of the car is not compromised. This is a single owner Duesenberg apparently and much of it remains as it was when delivered brand new.

I would like to aspire to achieve restorations like these. Its way too complex and I am not sure I can but this most certainly is what I would want to achieve for cars I get an opportunity to restore

This look is way too precious and its this look that's been lost on the RR, which I regret

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Old 6th April 2011, 11:38   #161
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DKG ...there should be someting left on the car thst is still useable as was apparently the case with this Duesenberg.

In the case of the Nizams car, the interiors etc were in tatters so how could they have been used.

The other stuff like the gauges, trim etc apparently has been resused after refurbishing. Just look at the wheel lug nuts.

In my book what was doen to the Nizmas car was a sympathetic restoration compared to a flashy restoration on the Stutz

What parts of the Nizams car do you feel were in a condition that meritied tehy be retained as is and what was discarded ?
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Old 6th April 2011, 11:46   #162
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Your opinion on whether teh RR deserved to be restored or kept as was ?
To be honest, I've had mixed feelings about the Nizam's RR- on one hand, I feel the restoration was done well, barring a couple of minor glitches that others have pointed out. OTOH, I cant help agreeing with what DKG said about why the car was modded up (bodily) the way she was. But yes, I agree that other aspects of the car, viz. the interiors, which were prone to decay and ruin over time, should have been restored when they deserved it.

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Old 6th April 2011, 11:59   #163
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Default Re: Cartier "Travel with Style" Concourse d' Elegance 2011

Have you seen the car before it was reatored, there was not one piece of the interior / upholstry that was in a salvageable condition.

And regarding the update done on it by the railway workshop its similar in concept to the painted grille on the Chevy, something to be corrected.

Now if the design and look for the update performed were actually someting the Nizam personally commissioned and had executed to his design thenit was worth saving nopt someting doen by a workshop just to make the car look modern, thats the point.
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Old 6th April 2011, 12:00   #164
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What parts of the Nizams car do you feel were in a condition that meritied tehy be retained as is and what was discarded ?
Wasif out of respect and regard for the restorer I won't go into details on where what kind of finish should be retained but basically what I am suggesting is that for this car, given its historic value and significance a restoration should have left the onlooker fooled into thinking he was looking at something that was done by Barker 100 years ago.

There is a Beetle with a friend which looks like it came from the factory. Some people tell me it was restored. I honestly couldn't tell and that to me is a super restoration when you are fooled into thinking its original from the factory. This is so difficult to achieve.

Today anyone, even a non car guy, will state with confidence this came out of a workshop a few days ago ! Its this nature of the present finish, that in my opinion, is what has caused the look to be lost. The present look and overall feel simply is in contradiction to the car's age

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Old 6th April 2011, 12:02   #165
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Wasif out of respect and regard for the restorer I won't go into details on where what kind of finish should be retained but basically what I am suggesting is that for this car, given its historic value and significance a restoration should have left the onlooker fooled into thinking he was looking at something that was done by Barker 100 years ago.

Today anyone, even a non car guy, will state with confidence this came out of a workshop a few days ago ! Its this nature of the present finish, that in my opinion, is what has caused the look to be lost
But that is how a restored car will look DKG ...you are aware of this and I am sure its as close to what it looked new as it ever will get.
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