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Old 14th April 2011, 06:49   #1
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Default Vintage and Classic Car Definition: India

Can some one define the criteria/test for a particular vehicle to be called as

1) vintage

2) classic / old classics

2) modern classic ( ? )


discussions sometimes confuse more

Sudarshan
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Old 14th April 2011, 12:45   #2
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Default Re: Rust In Pieces... Pics of Disintegrating Classic & Vintage Cars

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Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Can some one define the criteria/test for a particular vehicle to be called as
I remember asking this a while back. I need to search for that thread.

Problem is there is no well defined category for all. The British and the Americans follow their own separate differentiation.

But in the Indian context we need to make some changes. Understand that the car scene in India is pretty new compared to other countries. Cars have been here from since pre-independence and post-independence saw a decrease in the cars bough from the older brands. And the license raj/import duties killed whatever was left of it.

Presently as per VCCI:

Vintage - Cars & Motorcycles built before 1940
Classics - Cars & Motorcycles built between 1941 - 1960
Recent Classics - Cars built between 1961 - 1970

My take: Modern Classics ideally 1970 - 1980/85 (since we are now in over the 25 years mark - generally accepted unwritten rule).

Last edited by Spitfire : 14th April 2011 at 12:47.
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Old 14th April 2011, 16:03   #3
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Default Re: Rust In Pieces... Pics of Disintegrating Classic & Vintage Cars

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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
But in the Indian context we need to make some changes. Understand that the car scene in India is pretty new compared to other countries. Cars have been here from since pre-independence and post-independence saw a decrease in the cars bough from the older brands. And the license raj/import duties killed whatever was left of it.
Presently as per VCCCI:
Vintage - Cars & Motorcycles built before 1940
Classics - Cars & Motorcycles built between 1941 - 1960
Recent Classics - Cars built between 1961 - 1970
My take: Modern Classics ideally 1970 - 1980/85 (since we are now in over the 25 years mark - generally accepted unwritten rule).
Very good and practical. To modern classics you can add bikes, folks have started collecting Honda bikes of 1960/70's. But not every car is a modern classics even if more than 30 years old. They are just nice old cars. Like Opel Rekord, Peugeot 404 etc.
The car scene is not new, there was a very vibrant car collecting comunity active in Mumbai, Delhi, Kolkatta from the 1960's. And they really new their onions, and were enthusiasts.
What harmed the movement the maximum was the difficulty in importing parts, even tyres were not allowed. That killed a lot of cars, engines were replaced with other makes, wheels were altered.
I would not call an Amby 1970 a classic, even though I use one.

Cheers harit
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Old 14th April 2011, 21:23   #4
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Default Re: Rust In Pieces... Pics of Disintegrating Classic & Vintage Cars

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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
I remember asking this a while back. I need to search for that thread.
Presently as per VCCI:

Vintage - Cars & Motorcycles built before 1940
Classics - Cars & Motorcycles built between 1941 - 1960
Recent Classics - Cars built between 1961 - 1970

My take: Modern Classics ideally 1970 - 1980/85 (since we are now in over the 25 years mark - generally accepted unwritten rule).
I have a motorcycle that was built in dec 1941 but the model was manufactured from 1936 to 1941. So what does it make it?
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Old 14th April 2011, 21:42   #5
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Default Re: Rust In Pieces... Pics of Disintegrating Classic & Vintage Cars

Thanks to members for the above information

I want to know ;

1) does the limited edition ( produced in limited No.) & likewise has an effect on classification .

2) where do the regular production vehicle stand ( Vehicles Produced in thousands, may be more per model , like Land Rover , Beetle etc )

What I mean is if a vehicle is produced in thousands but now extinct ( in particular part of the world ) where it will stand in terms of importance or in terms of collector value .


Sudarshan
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Old 14th April 2011, 23:24   #6
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Default Re: Rust In Pieces... Pics of Disintegrating Classic & Vintage Cars

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So what does it make it?
Tricky but I would go with the date it was manufactured in.

Some models overlap these time periods and those would in my opinion go along with the date they were actually manufactured. The model year notwithstanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
1) does the limited edition ( produced in limited No.) & likewise has an effect on classification .
Not really. It would though affect the perceived value of the vintage/classic/recent/modern classic.

For example x and y are two cars available from the same year say 1936. They would both be bucketed as vintage. Now say a special edition car is made available in 1941 it would be a Classic.

Quote:
2) where do the regular production vehicle stand ( Vehicles Produced in thousands, may be more per model , like Land Rover , Beetle etc )
Regular or mass produced vehicles in the Vintage and Classic eras would be just that. Mass produced now and mass produced then has a huge difference in the numbers that flow out of a factory.

The mass produced Vintage and Classic Cars then would still be rare.

Bucketing them as Vintage and Classic does not mean we are coming out with a "value" on the car.

But when we say vintage car we go "Oh pre 1940."

So every Amby Mark 4 or a Sipani Badal (just to note recent examples) clearly places them out of a Vintage or Classic car bucketing.

Quote:
What I mean is if a vehicle is produced in thousands but now extinct ( in particular part of the world ) where it will stand in terms of importance or in terms of collector value .
Whether they are Vintage or Classic does not in any way proclaim or set its "value".

A mass produced Classic may be of lesser "value" then a very limited edition "Recent Classic".

But unjustified value for a Modern Classic just because it got rare can be sorted by saying its really a newer available car so not really a collectors car yet. e.g. A M800 First Gen none of the vintage or classic car collectors would be placing bids on one.

Open to comments and feedback on the above. This thread is an attempt to try and clear the ambiguity is the way vehicles today are been labeled to get a higher price. Mostly first timers are the one's who get carried away by an "old" car which is not really a classic or vintage.
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Old 15th April 2011, 10:29   #7
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Default Re: Rust In Pieces... Pics of Disintegrating Classic & Vintage Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Thanks to members for the above information
I want to know ;
1) does the limited edition ( produced in limited No.) & likewise has an effect on classification .
2) where do the regular production vehicle stand ( Vehicles Produced in thousands, may be more per model , like Land Rover , Beetle etc )
What I mean is if a vehicle is produced in thousands but now extinct ( in particular part of the world ) where it will stand in terms of importance or in terms of collector value . Sudarshan
Hi Sudarshan,
I think I get your drift. You could consider a category of being collectible. And it need not have any sanction from any authority, if you feel that you like a car and want to keep it for whatever reason, you make it your collectible. Very often todays orphan cars are tomorrows classics. Today we like powerful V8 engined cars, but as late as the 1990's these were dieselised, bashed up in movies etc. So if your car is manufactured after 1985 and you like it, do enjoy it and you will always find some others who share a passion for that model which you consider for yourself as "collectable".
You may find issues in acceptance for events etc., I have seen cars thrown out of an event like a 1950's Chevy pick-up in Delhi

Cheers harit

Last edited by harit : 15th April 2011 at 10:34.
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Old 15th April 2011, 10:39   #8
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Default Re: Rust In Pieces... Pics of Disintegrating Classic & Vintage Cars

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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post

Presently as per VCCI:

Vintage - Cars & Motorcycles built before 1940
Classics - Cars & Motorcycles built between 1941 - 1960
Recent Classics - Cars built between 1961 - 1970

My take: Modern Classics ideally 1970 - 1980/85 (since we are now in over the 25 years mark - generally accepted unwritten rule).

Sir you forgot the category that permits the 90's BMW 5 series, 2000 odd Porsche Cayanne, 2000 odd Harley Davidson, 2000 odd Bentley CFS to name a few to participate while authentic vintage and classic cars are not permitted or classified into a category. This time on since a certain sombody has the dealership of HD, you will see alot more HD's in the rally's.
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Old 15th April 2011, 11:44   #9
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Default Re: Rust In Pieces... Pics of Disintegrating Classic & Vintage Cars

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Originally Posted by harit View Post
You may find issues in acceptance for events etc., I have seen cars thrown out of an event like a 1950's Chevy pick-up in Delhi
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy View Post
while authentic vintage and classic cars are not permitted or classified into a category.
This thread can actually do just that create awareness and the difficult questions start getting asked. Then "they" either shape up or move off.
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Old 22nd June 2011, 17:54   #10
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Default Re: Vintage and Classic Car Definition: India

MODS: Sorry for posting in a thread which has been inactive for over 2 months.

I just now was thinking about the same topic, i.e, classification of Vintage, etc. I found these articles in Wikipedia which explains these terms pretty well.

Classic car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vintage car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Antique car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hope it helps!

Cheers!
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Old 22nd June 2011, 18:24   #11
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Default Re: Vintage and Classic Car Definition: India

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Originally Posted by freakmuzik View Post
MODS: Sorry for posting in a thread which has been inactive for over 2 months.

I just now was thinking about the same topic, i.e, classification of Vintage, etc. I found these articles in Wikipedia which explains these terms pretty well.

Classic car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vintage car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Antique car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hope it helps!

Cheers!
Good information therein, once again makes it a topic of vagueness as the criteria varies from country to country
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Old 12th March 2012, 14:43   #12
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Default Re: Classics available for purchase

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A sedan is considered a classic here, actually it is the coupes which are the classics and sedans are more for events like MB club, post war sedans, car shows and less of vintage AND classic car events..
A quick question for my knowledge and it would help others too.

Since you mention a coupe being a classic and a sedan not,Why is this so?. A 60's or 70's mercedes would be a classic whether it is a coupe or a sedan. I think the coupes are the desirable ones of the two but both would be considered as classics. Please do enlighten on this. This VCCCI event itself had 3 W115 sedans if i am not mistaken. Please do not take this the wrong way, i just want to understand better. Thank you in advance.
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Old 12th March 2012, 18:34   #13
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Default Re: Classics available for purchase

[quote=harit;2711041]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay99 View Post
here are another 2 classics for sale

A sedan is considered a classic here, actually it is the coupes which are the classics and sedans are more for events like MB club, post war sedans, car shows and less of vintage AND classic car events..

Cheers harit
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy View Post
A quick question for my knowledge and it would help others too.

Since you mention a coupe being a classic and a sedan not,Why is this so?. A 60's or 70's mercedes would be a classic whether it is a coupe or a sedan. I think the coupes are the desirable ones of the two but both would be considered as classics. Please do enlighten on this. This VCCCI event itself had 3 W115 sedans if i am not mistaken. Please do not take this the wrong way, i just want to understand better. Thank you in advance.
Hi Speedy,

I agree with Haritji with reference to coupes and convertibles from the 50s onwards being regarded as classics over sedans but only from an international perspective. I can speak for Mercs. A post war 170V sedan or a 220 sedan is not really considered a classic in the true sense abroad. Now a 170V roadster or a 220 coupe/cab (pre-cursor to the Pontons)
is a proper classic. A 300S falls in the same category. Similarly, in the Ponton era, a sedan, even a 220S is not a true classic. The 190SL, 220S coupe/cab is a classic. Post ponton gen the fintail sedans are not considered classics. It's the elegant non finned coupes/cabs styled by Paul Bracq which are classics.

By the international definition, a classic is a car which is:

a) Either not mass produced or produced in relatively small nos.

b) They have some features that are clearly novel for the time

c) Achieved some racing success

d) Bodies penned by design greats

And so on. But then it is impossible to have set criteria to determine what is classic car and what is not. It depends from person to person.

A Jaguar MK VII is a sedan, but is definitely considered a classic, so is a MK II 3.8 litre. They achieved considerable racing success in saloon class races and they are both post war.

Again, the Citroen DS and the SM, sedans but cult classics because of the path breaking technology.

In India however, sedans are considered by most as classics (me included). Reason? Simply because unlike in the US etc., these cars are few and far between. Personally, I consider the Maruti 800 a modern classic, it really is the car which opened a new realm of motoring refinement affordable by many.

Best Regards
Prithvi

Last edited by mbz180 : 12th March 2012 at 18:35.
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Old 13th March 2012, 15:39   #14
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Default Re: Classics available for purchase

Speedy, i think what Harit meant to say is that the coupe is more "desirable" as a classic than its sedan version. While i do agree to a certain extent with Harit's view and with Mbz180's explanation, the criteria here in India are very different. We cannot consider Indian conditions with foreign rules. Similarly as i had mentioned in one thread a long time ago that when in India do as the Indian's do. One cant follow standards of other developed countries when it comes to rules and judging and apply them to Indian conditions. In India modern classics are taken in that category to encourage more people to take part in the movement. I think thats a good idea because there can be only so many cars in India as are left. Since imports are not easy especially for classic cars, their numbers in India are not going to increase, hence to include more recent cars as classics is the way to go.

Now coming to the topic of why a coupe of a particular vintage is more of a classic that its sedan sibling. Its easy. totally depends on the numbers being produced. The coupes are far less produced than sedans, say in the Mercedes category and the convertibles still lesser in numbers. Depending on their survival, they become classics. Thats why a 1956 Mercedes 300SL is more of a classic (and certainly more desirable) than say a 300S (Saloon) of the same year.

In India even modern (Padmini) Fiats are now becoming classics and collectibles so are Ambassadors and that is only because their numbers are dwindling.

So here, exactly equating ourselves with standards abroad is nto the option. We may follow certain norms while coming up with our own for like, Padminis, Heralds etc as Indian Classics.

Just my two bits, please correct me if im wrong.
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Old 16th March 2012, 19:08   #15
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Default Re: Vintage and Classic Car Definition: India

This is a 1965 Chevy in a wedding picture I would normally post on the nostalgic thread. My presence on that thread is overbearing, so I thought to shift here and talk about what is classic/desirable.

This car was very common as a 4-door 6 cylinder engined sedan. In my opinion the least desirable version, I would not call her a classic if there were other cars to chose from. Now if she was pillarless, desirability moves up a notch. A 2-door sedan would be on similar level. And then V8 engined, still better. A coupe, even more exciting till we come to a convertible, very collectable. One would notice that accordingly the cars become rarer as we move up the versions mentioned above. Stationwagon again not so desirable, even as a V8, and anyway most were dieselised.
So many of these cars were thrashed in movies, recently a chop top was seen at a film award function, and that appeared to have been a chopped coupe. How sad.
A short note on what is collectable from my point of view.

Cheers harit
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