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Old 13th September 2015, 20:32   #46
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Default re: Automatics under 10 Lakh OTR - A Comprehensive Guide (now with the Baleno & Ertiga)

Thanks Rajeevraj for the excellent compilation.

Although many have requested to extend the list till 15 lakhs, I would suggest to start a separate thread for that list (10-15 lakhs) instead of merging that list into this. Probably you might already be thinking that way.


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Originally Posted by parth.jain View Post
Maybe these differences were due to a petrol engine in the Celerio and a diesel 90ps in the latter, but still I think the tuning of the Zest's AMT is much superior than the Celerio's. Also, price difference is pretty much between the two, but I don't think that is the reason here.
Parth, One other reason could be the AMT used in Zest is an advanced version of Magneto Marrelli's AMT compared to what is offered on Celerio (at least at the time of Zest launch). I'm not sure if Celerio has also been updated to that version. If I remember correctly, Nano Genx is launched with an even newer version of AMT compared to Zest.

One point to note is the approximate price difference between AMT and manual variants for each car.

Alto K10 - 49,000
Celerio - 49,500
Nano GenX - 39,500
Zest - 75,700
TUV300 - 72,000 (with couple of features reduced on the AMT version, Eco Mode and Microhybrid)

All prices are ex-showroom Delhi except TUV300 which is Pune. Maruti and Tata offers Magneto Marrelli sourced ones, while Mahindra offers one co-developed with Ricardo.

As far as I remember there are not much feature differences for the Maruti and Tata offerings between AMT and manual ones.

Any inputs about Magnet Marrelli's AMT versions by members would be a welcome addition to this thread?
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Old 14th September 2015, 11:11   #47
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Default re: Automatics under 10 Lakh OTR - A Comprehensive Guide (now with the Baleno & Ertiga)

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How would you rate the servicing aspect. Considering that they now have only one center. Hope I have my facts right.
It has been good so far. No complaints. We now have Vibrant Nissan in Gachibowli/Rayadurg area which is close to office so been going there. I am not so sure about the other centers though as I have never used them.
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Old 14th September 2015, 12:38   #48
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Default re: Automatics under 10 Lakh OTR - A Comprehensive Guide (now with the Baleno & Ertiga)

What about the reliability aspect of each of these automatic technologies.
And how much damage to pockets does it result when the things go amiss.

Pardon me, if this has already been posted, but I couldn't find the relevant discussion here.
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Old 14th September 2015, 18:11   #49
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Default re: Automatics under 10 Lakh OTR - A Comprehensive Guide (now with the Baleno & Ertiga)

Good Compilation by Senior - BHPian Rajeevraj. Few months back, I was looking for something like this, where I realized buying a car is one of the toughest questions you may face in your life. Anyhow, with the help of the inputs from fellow bhpians, I took a decision in favour of VW Polo GT TSI. A decision where I have 0% regrets. My thumbs up for GT
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Old 14th September 2015, 19:03   #50
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Originally Posted by Safari_Sid View Post
E2O has been added twice. Once after Ritz and then again after Zest. Kindly remove the duplication. Wonderful compilation Rajeevraj.
Thanks. It has been removed now. Happened due to a cross reporting I did to update the thread with the TUV and E2O details.

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Originally Posted by mrbaddy View Post
Thanks Rajeevraj for the excellent compilation.

Although many have requested to extend the list till 15 lakhs, I would suggest to start a separate thread for that list (10-15 lakhs) instead of merging that list into this. Probably you might already be thinking that way.
In process of compiling the thread for the 10-15L segment. Based on what I have done so far, the inferences and conclusions follow a different pattern. So maybe makes sense to keep as a separate thread. But will let the moderators take a call on that once done.

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Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
What about the reliability aspect of each of these automatic technologies.
And how much damage to pockets does it result when the things go amiss.

Pardon me, if this has already been posted, but I couldn't find the relevant discussion here.
Partially mentioned as part of the descriptions of the different AT technologies below (Quoting myself from the opening thread). In general TC based AT's have been around for the longest time and are technologically stable and not very complex. So they can be considered the most reliable. Same applies to CVT's. Been around long enough and no major technological challenges reported. AMT's in India are new. Technologically they are simple as it just consists of an additional box on top of the regular gear box. Whether the Indian conditions affect them adversely in any way-It is too early to tell.

DSG/DCT's are the most complex AT technology today. They are relatively new (the oldest one has been around for ~10 years). One specific gearbox VW's DQ200 has had a poor history with a number of failures and recalls. This is the one used in the Polo, Vento TSI. VW says they have fixed all issues with it and there has not been any major failures reported (at least to my knowledge). But in general DSG and reliability concerns always go together and has been reason enough for people to drop the Polo/Vento from the short lists.

From a regular service and maintenance, an AT should not add anything major to the maintenance costs.

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Originally Posted by Rajeevraj View Post
  • Torque Converter (TC): Also referred to as the conventional automatic transmission. Such automatics use a torque converter to transfer power from the engine to the transmission. There are very few parts that can wear in conventional automatic gearboxes, so a well-maintained one is very reliable. On the down side, gear shifts can be on the slower side and fuel efficiency is average. The earliest mass market automatics in India used such conventional 2/3 speed TC based transmissions. These were expensive and guzzled fuels and played a major role in building a negative perception about automatics in India.

  • Continuous Variable Transmission (CVT): Rather than sets of gears, CVTs use a belt that runs between two variable-diameter pulleys to give a wide range of ratios and a smooth transition between them. In automotive applications, some CVTs use a fluid-filled torque converter (as with a conventional automatic) to transfer power from the engine to the transmission, others a clutch similar to that used for a manual transmission, but with automatic activation (there is no clutch pedal). The advantage of a CVT is that the engine can be kept at its most efficient speed while the transmission adjusts to changes in load or road speed. Under brisk acceleration, for example, the engine revs up to where it produces the most power and is held there as the transmission constantly adjusts to the increasing speed of the car. This also gives rise to the infamous 'Rubber Band effect of CVT's'. Manufacturers like Honda have tried to overcome this by providing fixed virtual gear ratios in their CVT's which help mask the rubber band effect.

  • Automated Manual Transmission/Auto Gear Shift (AMT/AGS/Easy Shift): An automated manual is exactly what it says Ė a regular manual gearbox with a normal mechanical clutch, but one thatís operated entirely electronically; thereís no clutch pedal. When one of these gearboxes changes gear, the car automatically disengages drive, switches to the desired gear, and then re-engages drive Ė all without you doing a thing.
    It sounds like a perfect solution, especially as itís usually more efficient than a traditional automatic set-up, but it has two major downsides: speed and smoothness. AMT systems are actually on the way out in man developed markets, but Maruti Suzuki felt that it was something perfect for India since it eliminated 2 of our major concerns with automatics-Price and efficiency. And they were right, AMT has proved to be hugely popular and other manufacturers are jumping into the fray with AMT options in the mass segments.

  • Dual Clutch gearbox (DSG/ DCT): A dual-clutch automatic gearbox has, as its name suggests, two clutches. One clutch controls odd-numbered gears, and the other controls even-numbered gears. As you accelerate, the gearbox lines up the next and previous gears on the clutch that isnít in use, ready for any eventuality - whether you slow down or continue to accelerate. Then, when a gearchange is needed, it simply switches from one clutch to the other. The result is a very fast gearchange - most dual-clutch systems are able to change gear even more quickly than a human can with a manual gearbox. Whatís more, some dual-clutch systems are more fuel efficient than the manual alternative. The problem comes when pulling away, where there can be a slight delay as the first clutch engages, and this can also make for slightly jerky progress when youíre manoeuvring at low speeds Ė for example, when parallel parking. Itís worth noting, too, that dual-clutch systems are rather complex, and the earliest are still only around ten years old, so their long-term reliability is not yet proven. VW's DSG and Ford's DCT are examples of dual clutch systems
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Old 15th September 2015, 11:03   #51
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Default re: Automatics under 10 Lakh OTR - A Comprehensive Guide (now with the Baleno & Ertiga)

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Originally Posted by Rajeevraj View Post


Partially mentioned as part of the descriptions of the different AT technologies below (Quoting myself from the opening thread). In general TC based AT's have been around for the longest time and are technologically stable and not very complex. So they can be considered the most reliable. Same applies to CVT's. Been around long enough and no major technological challenges reported. AMT's in India are new. Technologically they are simple as it just consists of an additional box on top of the regular gear box. Whether the Indian conditions affect them adversely in any way-It is too early to tell.

DSG/DCT's are the most complex AT technology today. They are relatively new (the oldest one has been around for ~10 years). One specific gearbox VW's DQ200 has had a poor history with a number of failures and recalls. This is the one used in the Polo, Vento TSI. VW says they have fixed all issues with it and there has not been any major failures reported (at least to my knowledge). But in general DSG and reliability concerns always go together and has been reason enough for people to drop the Polo/Vento from the short lists.

From a regular service and maintenance, an AT should not add anything major to the maintenance costs.
So if I get this right, the Torque converter and CVT should not cause oneto worry. If one expects these to go wrong, then in same fashion, he should also factor in manual transmission going bad.

However, the DCT and DSG are still wonky, and a prospective buyer should factor in a probability of some kind of fault or failure.
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Old 15th September 2015, 18:33   #52
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Default re: Automatics under 10 Lakh OTR - A Comprehensive Guide (now with the Baleno & Ertiga)

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Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
So if I get this right, the Torque converter and CVT should not cause oneto worry. If one expects these to go wrong, then in same fashion, he should also factor in manual transmission going bad.

However, the DCT and DSG are still wonky, and a prospective buyer should factor in a probability of some kind of fault or failure.
That is a fair summary. On the dual clutch AT's Ford's 6 speed DCT has been extensively used in several cars/countries and there has not been any mass reliability issues reported. VW's DSG's (specifically the 7 Speed DQ200) has had a history of reliability issues.
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Old 16th September 2015, 00:15   #53
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Default re: Automatics under 10 Lakh OTR - A Comprehensive Guide (now with the Baleno & Ertiga)

Very good compilation.
6 years back when I was on the lookout for a AT hatchback there was barely any choice. Now there's a range of cars on offer from various manufacturers in different price points.
IMO at this moment the 1.5 DCT Aspire hits the sweet spot between price, performance and reliability.
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Old 16th September 2015, 09:54   #54
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^^ That one is a winner all the way.. Well proportioned Compact Sedan with all the bells and whistles. Looks great and the AC is terrific.
I TD'ed a new low mileage Auto and it was fast & eager to rip.
The Gearbox is a little confused, but not much.
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Old 16th September 2015, 14:19   #55
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Default re: Automatics under 10 Lakh OTR - A Comprehensive Guide (now with the Baleno & Ertiga)

Excellent compilation, RajeevRaj!! This thread is really helpful, since I am in the middle of decision-making process for an AT (preferably hatch). The dilemma is, all the well-equipped cars report a single-digit FE in the city...
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Old 17th September 2015, 23:31   #56
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Originally Posted by sschivate View Post
Excellent compilation, RajeevRaj!! This thread is really helpful, since I am in the middle of decision-making process for an AT (preferably hatch). The dilemma is, all the well-equipped cars report a single-digit FE in the city...
The upcoming Ford Figo hatch is probably just what you need. As per this report, it is going to come with the same 1.5 + DCT gearbox seen in the Aspire.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3804299
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Old 18th September 2015, 10:41   #57
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Default re: Automatics under 10 Lakh OTR - A Comprehensive Guide (now with the Baleno & Ertiga)

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Originally Posted by sschivate View Post
Excellent compilation, RajeevRaj!! This thread is really helpful, since I am in the middle of decision-making process for an AT (preferably hatch). The dilemma is, all the well-equipped cars report a single-digit FE in the city...
You can check out the new Micra - Being a CVT, it should give you better FE
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Old 18th September 2015, 13:22   #58
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Originally Posted by Rajeevraj View Post
The upcoming Ford Figo hatch is probably just what you need. As per this report, it is going to come with the same 1.5 + DCT gearbox seen in the Aspire.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3804299
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Originally Posted by BaluJ View Post
You can check out the new Micra - Being a CVT, it should give you better FE
@Rajeevraj: Thanks, I am not in a hurry, so I can wait for new Figo.

@Balu: Thanks, I did not have Micra on my shortlist, but it looks like I need to check it out...
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Old 23rd September 2015, 22:37   #59
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Default re: Automatics under 10 Lakh OTR - A Comprehensive Guide (now with the Baleno & Ertiga)

Excellent thread. Thanks for the effort. Now all the "What AT hatchback?" threads can be closed and only keep this thread open as a single discussion thread.

The thread is not even 1 month old and it will need update for the new entrant - Figo AT!

Can I request that couple of blank lines be added at the bottom of the excel/images for T-bhp logo? Other suggestion I have is to add Extended Warranty information for the gear box either in the feature list or Observation notes. For example information regarding Maruti's excellent 10 year/160,000 Kms warranty of AMT box or Ford's 10 year warranty for DCT (I might be wrong here with this one) and the lack of extended warranty option in Xcent would help prospective buyers in deciding AT car.

Lack of safety equipment in Grand i10 is one of Hyundai's biggest miss around their AT strategy causing people to move towards Brio AT and Micra AT. Second miss is not offering Elite i20 AT and third miss is continuing to offer their old school 4 speed TC box in cars all the way till Verna!

On positive side, Hyundai AT is the cheapest compared to their manual variant (approx 76K). Maruti and Honda are literally looting here with a premium of more than 1L for their TC/CVT in Dzire/Jazz (an an example Jazz CVT in USA is USD 800 more / INR 52K so for India it's double - even if you factor in taxes, it should not be that high).
I personally would have welcomed Hyundai to charge the extra 30K and give me Elantra's 6-speed on my Xcent. Interestingly Hyundai is charging 1.1L premium for their 6-speed TC box on Elantra but only 91K premium for the same box on Creta!! Commendable job by Ford to price Aspire AT only 1.1L extra which includes a bigger engine, DCT and higher excise (24% v/s 12% for MT Aspire).
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Old 24th September 2015, 19:55   #60
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Default re: Automatics under 10 Lakh OTR - A Comprehensive Guide (now with the Baleno & Ertiga)

Thread was moved temporarily to the Assembly Line. Thanks to Rajeevraj for updating it!

Quote:
Apart from adding details about the new Figo (and some additional info on the TUV300), I have also added the following:

- Additional column to show the difference in price with the corresponding manual variant, and some inferences about this.

- Some points about warranty on the AT boxes provided by manufacturers.
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