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Old 2nd October 2008, 13:11   #16
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ibm_jennifer : That doesn't mean that its lubricative.
In response, I quote your statement, in this very thread :
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ibm_jennifer : None of the fuel additive is proved to be lubricative. They are corrosive instead.
So Tata Motors sells something that is corrosive & recommends that you use this corrosive thing in your vehicles, vehicles that they manufacture ?
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Old 2nd October 2008, 13:20   #17
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Tata Motors sells something that is corrosive & recommends that you use this corrosive thing in your vehicles, vehicles that they manufacture ?
Additives are some form of Zing or PTFE or Detergent or Alcoholic. If any additive is advertised to remove Carbon deposits, it must strongly acid based as it should be powerful than Diesel/Petrol. if it is not corrosive, it cant remove the carbons - if it removes the carbons, it should be corrosive in nature.

Some manufactures like OWS, STP claim that there additives are not corrosive, but its not proved yet.

Last edited by ibm_jennifer : 2nd October 2008 at 13:24.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 13:26   #18
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Originally Posted by Prowler View Post
I have a 1998 Safari and I am happy with the car. But I want to go in for the new safari. Which model is best ? - considering the fact that I will be traveling in remote places in long drives where the quality of fuel will be poor.

I was told that VTT engine requires high quality diesel. I have covered Nilgiris with my safari and didn't feel starved of power too much. I usually have cars for at least 5 years.

So what is the best option ? I would be grateful if someone could throw some light on this.
The VTT Safari does not need high quality diesel. The manual recommends normal fuel and thats what ive been using since i purchased my SVTT. Tata Workshop technicians informed me that using premium diesel causes some kind of buildup on the injectors and then requires them to be opened for cleaning. So if fuel is the issue keeping you from a SVTT then ive answered that.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 16:32   #19
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Thanks a lot People. I really appreciate the fervor.

First of all, I am happy with my TCIC engine and there are few vehicles who could race past me. That is why I said I am happy with the heart, but not the rest of it. I have spent close to 1.5 L on this including changing the clutch assembly and a full work on power steering. I just gave up spending more on this.

I might be better off with a new Safari than struggling with a decade old car. I really have not much choice as I need a SUV. You don't have much of a choice for around 8 L. I will TD both versions and keep you posted.

Thanks a lot Folks.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 17:12   #20
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Why you want to test drive both version? Never look for another new TCIC Man, if you are buying new go for the 2.2 DICOR.

How much kms you covered in your TCIC?
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Old 4th October 2008, 13:13   #21
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I have covered close to 91,000 Km on this. I agree that VTT is an advanced engine compared to the old mill of the TCIC. But this same engine has served me well for so many years without any problem.

I will tell you something - I was cresting a hill near Coorg last year and there was a thundershower. I have a retrofitted remote lock in this car and that suddenly went beeping. I had to stop the car, disconnect the battery lead to the unit and reset the thing. I am an electronics Engineer and I know that microprocessors can act up due to static electricity amongst other things.

All the arguments in favor of the VTT are about its sophistication alone. How reliable is this new beast ? I know about the old horse - it just won't die on you. Any idea about these DICOR reliability issues ?
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Old 4th October 2008, 14:41   #22
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Originally Posted by Prowler View Post
I had to stop the car, disconnect the battery lead to the unit and reset the thing. I am an electronics Engineer and I know that microprocessors can act up due to static electricity amongst other things.

All the arguments in favor of the VTT are about its sophistication alone. How reliable is this new beast ? I know about the old horse - it just won't die on you. Any idea about these DICOR reliability issues ?
Sir, agreed that you had one bad experience. But that does not mean that the new ones are NOT reliable.

You being an electronics engineer should know about the reliability of modern microprocessors versus the age-old transistor fired devices!


The DICOR is miles ahead of the TCIC in all departments. The numbers on the road do the talking, just for your reference!

Happy DICORing.

And BTW, TATAs have done enough testing of the DICOR before releasing it on the market!

Also, IMO, any non OE CL system or PW system fails, as the installers, however professional, cannot match the factory specs in installation and earthing, which is why these failures occur : beep beep.
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Old 4th October 2008, 14:43   #23
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Originally Posted by Prowler View Post
I have a retrofitted remote lock in this car and that suddenly went beeping. I had to stop the car, disconnect the battery lead to the unit and reset the thing. I am an electronics Engineer and I know that microprocessors can act up due to static electricity amongst other things.
The retrofitment is the issue!
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Old 4th October 2008, 16:23   #24
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All the arguments in favor of the VTT are about its sophistication alone. How reliable is this new beast ? I know about the old horse - it just won't die on you. Any idea about these DICOR reliability issues ?
Man, believe me or not! I bought a TCIC SAFARI when the same agent is ready to give me 3.0 DICOR for the same price. I never trust a Computer controlled Vehicle, as I am a computer(Mainframe) Engineer!!! I preferred the TCIC than a DICOR, because its maintained by a Auto Mechanical company.


Why dont you keep your vehicle or sell your first generation TCIC for a third generation TCIC(Manufactured after 2004). If you can find a well maintained 2004/2005 TCIC(means, like mine - but don't worry, I wont sell my safari even for 10L), get it man, I will help you with my mechanic to check the engine condition, as you are in Chennai.

The TCIC Looks better than a DICOR, the parts cost are very cheaper, its more reliable than a DICOR. Its suspensions are better than a DICOR, its Engine build quality is better, it doesnt ask you to "CHECK ENGINE", it never fails because of any stupid electronics faults, its fuel injectors are made for Indian fuel, finally its not underpowered unless you are a rash driver (But you should maintain it properly). Its an Elephant, not a Horse. If you need a Horse go for a DICOR, if you an Elephant rider - TCIC is the choice. The only advantage I found on a DICOR than a TCIC, the DICOR has a very good turning radious than a TCIC. (I dont care about Mileage!)

Finally if you are looking for a new vehicle, no more TCIC Man, please! (Anyway I am a stupid TCIC SAFARI Lover!!!). Keep your TCIC with you or wait for a third generation DICOR.

Last edited by ibm_jennifer : 4th October 2008 at 16:41.
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Old 6th October 2008, 00:13   #25
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Detergents are not corrosive and something which can clean up carbon deposits is not necessarily corrosive as well.

1. System D is for cleaning fuel lines of sludge gumming and increase lubricity and not to clean carbon deposits in engine cylinder and head , Something called Engine flush is used for cleaning carbon deposits and mixed with engine oil.

2. Actually fuel pumps of diesel engine are supposed to be lubricated with diesel itself , But when diesel is mixed with kerosene it reduces the lubricity
and to provide lubrication to fuel pump you need additive.
Believe me or not kerosene mixing with diesel is not a problem in itself in fact it is a recommended practice in sub zero climate ( winter mix ) and Safari manual itself recommends 50% diesel and Kerosene mix at - 20deg Celsius as diesel viscocity increases at sub zero teemprature but to compensate for reduced lubrication for fuel pumps additives are required. How much system D or STP provides this lubricity is not known to me and personally I have never used them till now.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
Additives are some form of Zing or PTFE or Detergent or Alcoholic. If any additive is advertised to remove Carbon deposits, it must strongly acid based as it should be powerful than Diesel/Petrol. if it is not corrosive, it cant remove the carbons - if it removes the carbons, it should be corrosive in nature.

Some manufactures like OWS, STP claim that there additives are not corrosive, but its not proved yet.
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Old 6th October 2008, 00:26   #26
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From: IFTEX OIL & CHEMICALS LTD.

Quote:
Cleans the fuel injector system of gum, varnish and carbon deposits, without taking them apart.
From: STP® - Fuel Additive FAQs

Quote:
Many car manufacturers state that after-market fuel additives are not necessary even though they sell their own brand of fuel additives. Some after-market fuel additives contain corrosive chemicals that may be harmful to fuel system components or internal engine parts. STP® products do not contain any corrosive components such as alcohols and are safe for use in all engines.
I agree that None of the Fuel Additive is Corrosive, as they are not removing any Carbons actually. See my thread: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/access...ization-4.html

But I wonder, how they become lubricative? Can't you test it in your hand against a 2T Oil?

Believe it or not, We have used two 18v Bosch Drilling machines to clean the carbon deposits. We tried Spirit, Soda, Thinner even Acid, but nothing can remove the carbon. If this fuel additives can able to remove them, wont it affect your rubber seals?

Last edited by ibm_jennifer : 6th October 2008 at 00:39.
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Old 6th October 2008, 00:40   #27
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If you find the TCIC engine adequately powerful you will be surprised with the VTT engine's characteristics especially driveability and fuel consumption,for the price difference i'd strongly suggest 2.2VTT over 2.0 TCIC.
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Old 6th October 2008, 00:41   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
But I wonder, how they become lubricative? Can't you test it in your hand against a 2T Oil?
First test normal Diesel in your hand and check how much lubricity it has and then check same for Kerosene ( most common additive in diesel) , Now the task at the hand is to restore the lubricity of the mix to original value of diesel because fuel pumps are designed for that.
Detergents do provide some lubricity , Detergent used in Diesel fuel additive is most probably Polyisobutylene or Butyl rubber
Read on Wikipedia about the same

Butyl rubber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 6th October 2008, 00:55   #29
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Polyisobutylene is what the inner line of your car tubeless tire uses, are you sure its lubricative?

Fine, Then why none of this stupid additive manufactures advertises their fuel additives as lubricative? Or even Anti-Corrosive(except STP/F2-21)

Last edited by ibm_jennifer : 6th October 2008 at 01:02.
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Old 6th October 2008, 01:18   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
Polyisobutylene is what the inner line of your car tubeless tire uses, are you sure its lubricative?
Yes exactly it is the same polymer , In vulcanized form Polyisobutylene is used to make rubber tubes , Incidentely one of the use of Polyisobutylene ( polyisobutylene succinimide) is to make synthetic 2 Cycle ( 2T ) Engine oil

Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies
Semi-synthetic two-stroke engine oil formulation - Patent 5498353

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
Fine, Then why none of this stupid additive manufactures advertises their fuel additives as lubricative? Or even Anti-Corrosive(except STP/F2-21)
Well same polymer can be used in multiple ways based on the amount of usage and blending with various other chemicals, I think in System D and STP it is a blend of various detergents and target market segment is for fuel system cleaning.
The lubricity required in Diesel oil is minimal and target market for these additives is fuel injector cleaning segment and not facilitate people to run Diesel + Kerosene mix. Additives in cold countries are marketed as winter mix for this purpose as well.

Last edited by amitk26 : 6th October 2008 at 01:20.
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