Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > What Car?


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 6th May 2009, 00:10   #211
Team-BHP Support
 
manson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 3,547
Thanked: 2,035 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
A good driver always knows where not to go with the 4X2, LOL!
Lol, gotta agree with that!
But sometimes I feel 4 x 4 is given unreasonable weightage while referring to the Scorpio and the Safari, and that very often comes from people who do not even own an SUV. The whole 4 x 4 deal is a little overdone, its purely an advantage over the 4 x 2 version, and not a different vehicle by itself.
But some people would just stick by the whole 4 x 4 tag and by good chance never make effective use of the same.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Even I ve always felt the old non crde 2.6 scorpio turbo was a superb vehicle
I have mentioned this before, buying the 2.6 Scorpio back in 2004 was one of the best Automotive decisions I have made till date, can;t say the same about parting with it though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Its metal gauge is actually much heavier than the current gen scorp - possibly because they wanted the current gen scorp with crde to move faster, they reduced the metal gauge and thus reduced its overall body weight.
This has off late been one of my major concerns.
I have booked the new refreshed Scorpio a few days back, and can't help wondering if the body shell and the leaf spring suspension would be able to take the abuse like the previous Scorpio did. Shankar, your opinion on this?

manson.
manson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2009, 00:12   #212
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Bangalore / Madras
Posts: 1,980
Thanked: 14 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
heck, where the innova climbs a flyover in 5th gear, the scorpio gains momentum & overtakes in the same gear! extra 20 bhp power & 10 kgm torque in the scorpio is not a waste!
Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I am yet to drive a Scorpio which can do it... mhawk or otherwise.
I agree with this - my 3.0 DiCOR accelerates faster than an Innova on an(y) ascent. I can only imagine how much faster a Scorpio (independent of generation) will tackle the same ascent.

From what I've seen on our National & State Highways, the Innovas are very impressive on the plains. Come climbs and they *seem* to lose steam.
hrag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2009, 07:42   #213
Senior - BHPian
 
raj_5004's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dubai/Mumbai
Posts: 5,078
Thanked: 2,031 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson View Post
I have booked the new refreshed Scorpio a few days back, and can't help wondering if the body shell and the leaf spring suspension would be able to take the abuse like the previous Scorpio did. Shankar, your opinion on this?

manson.
1 more addition to the scorpio club, welcome!

i have always felt my older 2.6 non-crde scorpio was tougher than my current mHawk. reason is my current scorpio is suffering from the driver door squeaking which has not been rectified even after 2 visits to the A.S.S., the CRDe & non-CRDe scorpios did not show any signs of ageing even after 1 lakh plus kms on the odo.
raj_5004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2009, 09:27   #214
Senior - BHPian
 
shankar.balan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: BLR
Posts: 8,027
Thanked: 5,325 Times
Default

I think it can - but inherently my own psychological take is that the heavier gauge of metal would be tougher than the lighter gauge.
the old 2.6 non crde turbo engine is capable of a lot more abuse that 2.6 Crde - largely on account of the absence of sensitive electronics in it.
Leaf Springs though bumpy and very tough - and even if they die, replacement is definitely going to be cheaper than the new multilink type on the Crde version.

The toughest jeeps from Mahindra have always had leaf springs and indeed, I believe even the 4WD Scorp has leaf springs, front and back.

With this in mind, personally I would be more comfortable being rougher with the old Scorp than with my newer one - each morning on my chukker with the dogs I pass a house in the neighbourhood where the owner has a 2004 Scorp. We always chat for a minute before he sets off to the Gym. And each time I see his scorp I kick myself for not having bought the Older 2.6 Non Crde version - it simply looks and feels so "tough"! - this may be psychological but "instinct" is usually right. Dont forget that in India, while buying things generally, we do tend to perceive value in greater "weight". This may have a bearing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson View Post
Lol, gotta agree with that!
I have booked the new refreshed Scorpio a few days back, and can't help wondering if the body shell and the leaf spring suspension would be able to take the abuse like the previous Scorpio did. Shankar, your opinion on this?

manson.

Last edited by shankar.balan : 6th May 2009 at 09:29.
shankar.balan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2009, 09:29   #215
BHPian
 
rrsteer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 144022
Posts: 940
Thanked: 893 Times
Default

The thread is confusing for me. BHP1, I saw your opening post and you have mentioned your primary requirement to be comfort and I assume you are still deciding on a car. In that case , I don't see why should you buy a Scorpio over an Innova.

And if you still desire something else, and are ready to take a chance I 'd recommend the Safari. I say so after having owned 2 Safaris and my consideration list while buying a vehicle were very similar to yours. I know all the case studies of Tata Safari that exist in T-BHP. But, if you can ignore all those and decide to buy a Safari and if your SUV turns out to be one of those produced which could pass QC with flying colours - I can assure you, you would be hooked to the vehicle for your lifetime. A well manufactured Safari just blows every other car away.

But as you can see I have used so many 'Ifs'.
So here is my conclusion with few more 'ifs'.

If you are a sensible practical person go for an Innova. If you have a 'life is beautiful' streak go for a Safari.
rrsteer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2009, 10:12   #216
Senior - BHPian
 
extreme_torque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,546
Thanked: 1,317 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson View Post
I will not comment about the Safari as I do not have any extensive personal experience to generate a response from, but could you be a little more specific about the the pseudo SUV characterisitics and pretence of the the Scorpio.
I have recently parted with my 2004 Scorpio which had clocked 110,000 kms odd. Anyone around me would vouch for the luggage load my Scorpio used to ferry around, sometimes over a 1000 kgs, and all this without a niggle and over some very bad roads. It would glide over rough patches
Through all of this:
  • The suspension was not worked upon even once, simply because it did not require one.
  • I did not face a single breakdown in almost 5 years besides an electical niggle, which again was mostly a failure on part of the battery supplier.
  • It mostly required only regular brake pad changes.
  • One clutch assembly change at 80K.
  • Zilch mechanical failures
OK so you lugged a tonne with your Scorpio, how does that make it an SUV?
An SUV isnt supposed to lug loads, a pick up truck is. Besides there is another Safari on the forum, the original 2.0 Turbo which did the same duty as your Scorpio did and did it for more than 2 lakhs kilometers but then this doesnt prove anything as far as it offroad capabilities are concerned.
I would make it clear one and for all, for me an SUV has to be 4x4 and this hold true for either Safari or Scorpio. For me 4X2 version of both are imposters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson View Post
I did some respectable speeds in the Innova just last weekend. The Innova feels extremely composed upto 100-110 kmph. You could stretch this to 120 probably but beyond a 120 kmph the noise levels and the construction of the shell do not inspire much confidence. Also, the Innova is just so comfortable to be in that one does not feel like speeding.
The driving position of the Innova is just perfect, I have not driven a utility vehicle with a better seating postition barring the blind spots. The Safari excels in this regard, the view from the cockpit is just perfect.
I have taken Innova upto 140 kmph and there is no comparison with Scorpio. The light steering which doesnt loads up as speeds increase and the bouncy nature of the Scorpio meant that it was nervous at anything over 120 kmph. For high speed highway driving the Innova is a better buy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by manson View Post
I have owned both simultaneously for a full year, and I can without a doubt say my 2.6 non CRDE Scorpio is more driveable than the Innova. Try going uphill in both vehciles back to back, the difference will be most evident.
I havent driven the old non-crde Scorpio so I am not the best person to comment on it. Although I have driven the Xylo and the Scorpio CRDE for extended periods, I must admit that I have never driven Innova thre Mahindra's back to back. But then I have always felt Innova accelerates faster than either of those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson View Post
This is about production policies and economies of scale, does not describe the characteristics of a vehicle.
It doesnt describe the characterstic of a vehicle but the attitude of the manufacturer, Mahindra in this case. A 4x4 version of either Scorpio or Safari is built on order so the question of production policies and economies of scale doesnt apply here. I am sure the increased price takes into account everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson View Post
Ever tried going over a bad patch in an Innova, and then a Scorpio? The Scorpio and the Safari literally much bad roads, and neither need a 4 x 4 for doing that. Like someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, the 4 x 4 is simply a tool, does not necessarily mean than a 4 x 2 similar vehicle is not almost as capable. Infact one would usually only see a seasoned driver take on roads that could be taken down under more effectively by a 4 x 4 equipped vehicle, and IMO a good driver usually knows his way around, with or without 4 x 4.
4X4 is for bad roads???? I think you need to revisit the 4x4 world.
And please enough of this 4x2 being almost as capable as 4x4 talk beacuse it isnt but then I wouldnt blame you coz you have never experienced 4-low taking you out of an almost impossible situation or climbing that incline which you though was never possible. Cant even believe you wrote that (in bold).... 4x4 users please comment. How far can you go to justify your purchase?

Last edited by extreme_torque : 6th May 2009 at 10:15.
extreme_torque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2009, 10:25   #217
Senior - BHPian
 
extreme_torque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,546
Thanked: 1,317 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson View Post
Lol, gotta agree with that!
But sometimes I feel 4 x 4 is given unreasonable weightage while referring to the Scorpio and the Safari, and that very often comes from people who do not even own an SUV. The whole 4 x 4 deal is a little overdone, its purely an advantage over the 4 x 2 version, and not a different vehicle by itself.
But some people would just stick by the whole 4 x 4 tag and by good chance never make effective use of the same.
On my last year's trip to chandertaal, spiti valley with my very good friend Nitin (trance_nut on the forum), 4x4 meant we could come out of an almost impossible situation which need 4 wheeled traction and extra torque from the low ratio without which we would have been well and truly stuck waiting for someone to take us out, on a trail which sees a vehicle every 3-4 hours!
The second instance was backing up a very steep hairpin where we were just spinning the rear wheels and burning the clutch while the truck moved ahead! Had it not been the 4Low ratio, I wouldnt even have been writing this. So please dont underestimate the virtues of a 4X4 version just beacuse you dont own it.
You may want to run your SUV on highways with a tonne of load behind and then proclaiming it to be an SUV but it isnt. That simply makes it a tough vehicle. I am the one who would want to use his SUV like it should be used because for me a every vehicle has a purpose. I am really not interested in buying imposters, gimme the real thing.
extreme_torque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2009, 11:13   #218
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 3,083
Thanked: 252 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
... 4x4 users please comment. How far can you go to justify your purchase?
Being essentially a traveller/tourer I have never put 4WD to the 'test' as it were. I have never tried to see where it tops out or maxes out.
For me it has been a feature to enable me to go to offbeat places during off-seasons, where the terrain is, at times (only at times), such that no 2 wheel drive vehicle can clear it.
Very often it could be just one steep hairpin or a deluged patch of road, but that is enough; that makes or breaks your trip.

Paying the extra for a 4WD vehicle (with Low Ratios) is not about percentage usage, it's about the ability/freedom to go, indeed about whether you may go at all or not!
The joy of Low Ratio can hardly be described, it has to be experienced on site!
For those few seconds or minutes, when other vehicles are waiting and watching, it is a rush that makes it all worthwhile! "Paisa vasool" (money well spent)!
anupmathur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2009, 11:24   #219
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,953
Thanked: 15,645 Times
Default

The whole debate is pointless.
bhp1 just wants a comfortable vehicle with high GC to take care of bad roads. He is not going to tow a trailer, or go 4x4.
95% of all safari's sold and 100% of all mhawks are 4x2 vehicles, and are purchased for SUV image.
Many of them never see a dirt track
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2009, 11:41   #220
Senior - BHPian
 
raj_5004's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dubai/Mumbai
Posts: 5,078
Thanked: 2,031 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I have taken Innova upto 140 kmph and there is no comparison with Scorpio. The light steering which doesnt loads up as speeds increase and the bouncy nature of the Scorpio meant that it was nervous at anything over 120 kmph. For high speed highway driving the Innova is a better buy.
the innova is most comfortable only upto 120 kmph. beyond that the engine feels strained & coarse. above that, too much engine/tyre/wind noise spoils the ambience of the cabin.
talking about handling at high speeds, above 120 kmph, the innova has a very floaty speed to it. it does not hold its direction well.

this does not happen in the scorpio & safari.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
The whole debate is pointless.
bhp1 just wants a comfortable vehicle with high GC to take care of bad roads. He is not going to tow a trailer, or go 4x4.
95% of all safari's sold and 100% of all mhawks are 4x2 vehicles, and are purchased for SUV image.
Many of them never see a dirt track
this is exactly my point. atleast consider what bhp1 needs from his vehicle.
raj_5004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2009, 13:04   #221
Team-BHP Support
 
manson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 3,547
Thanked: 2,035 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
OK so you lugged a tonne with your Scorpio, how does that make it an SUV?
An SUV isnt supposed to lug loads, a pick up truck is.
Nor is an SUV supposed to be an out & out mountain munching machine, a Jeep is.
Lugging around a load is a common use for a huge percentage of SUV owners, unfortunately offroading isn't one, atleast in India.

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Besides there is another Safari on the forum, the original 2.0 Turbo which did the same duty as your Scorpio did and did it for more than 2 lakhs kilometers but then this doesnt prove anything as far as it offroad capabilities are concerned.
I would make it clear one and for all, for me an SUV has to be 4x4 and this hold true for either Safari or Scorpio. For me 4X2 version of both are imposters.
For you they may be imposters, but the following complete the SUV image and meaning for me:
  • High GC
  • Load carrying capabilities
  • High volume storage space
  • A suspension that can take on rough terrain without much drama
  • Butch image (subjective)

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I havent driven the old non-crde Scorpio so I am not the best person to comment on it. Although I have driven the Xylo and the Scorpio CRDE for extended periods, I must admit that I have never driven Innova thre Mahindra's back to back. But then I have always felt Innova accelerates faster than either of those.
Raj has been kind to put down numbers, only if you would bother taking note. Tests performed by leading magazines are conducted using some good equipment and not on a butt dyno. They may sometimes be biased, but not to the extent of the difference in acceleration times mentioned by Raj.
FYI over last weekend I drove the Innova over some reasonably steep incline, it negotiated the ascent in first gear as if it were rolling in second or third.

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
It doesnt describe the characterstic of a vehicle but the attitude of the manufacturer, Mahindra in this case. A 4x4 version of either Scorpio or Safari is built on order so the question of production policies and economies of scale doesnt apply here. I am sure the increased price takes into account everything..
So, what exactly is the problem here? You want a 2.6 Crde 4 x 4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
4X4 is for bad roads???? I think you need to revisit the 4x4 world.
And please enough of this 4x2 being almost as capable as 4x4 talk beacuse it isnt but then I wouldnt blame you coz you have never experienced 4-low taking you out of an almost impossible situation or climbing that incline which you though was never possible. Cant even believe you wrote that (in bold).... 4x4 users please comment. How far can you go to justify your purchase?
You probably did not read my post in the right prospective.
Firstly, I know what a 4 x 4 is capable of, I learnt to drive on a 118NE & 4 x 4 Gypsy. On a later stage my older brother and I would often go on similar excusrsions that you read about in the Offroading section of the forum.
But I even know that I most certainly do not need the 4 x 4 advantage for my daily drive. The Scorpio's 4 x 2, high GC, super motor, generous storage and now coupled with ABS is a superb package for my daily drive, almost custom made for me.
Like TSK pointed out, you have to realise that majority of the Safaris, Scorpios, heck even Pajeros (which I believe comes equipped with the lusted 4 x 4) do not ever see terrain that would require a 4 x 4 advantage. So I meant for a daily drive, and even over some rough terrain the 4 x 2 is almost as good as 4 x 4.


Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
talking about handling at high speeds, above 120 kmph, the innova has a very floaty speed to it. it does not hold its direction well.
I experienced this a few times through the Mumbai-Pune expressway, back then I related this to strong cross winds, a possible ill alignment and the tinny body shell.

manson.
manson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2009, 14:30   #222
Senior - BHPian
 
extreme_torque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,546
Thanked: 1,317 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson View Post
Nor is an SUV supposed to be an out & out mountain munching machine, a Jeep is.
Lugging around a load is a common use for a huge percentage of SUV owners, unfortunately offroading isn't one, atleast in India.



For you they may be imposters, but the following complete the SUV image and meaning for me:
  • High GC
  • Load carrying capabilities
  • High volume storage space
  • A suspension that can take on rough terrain without much drama
  • Butch image (subjective)


Raj has been kind to put down numbers, only if you would bother taking note. Tests performed by leading magazines are conducted using some good equipment and not on a butt dyno. They may sometimes be biased, but not to the extent of the difference in acceleration times mentioned by Raj.
FYI over last weekend I drove the Innova over some reasonably steep incline, it negotiated the ascent in first gear as if it were rolling in second or third.



So, what exactly is the problem here? You want a 2.6 Crde 4 x 4?



You probably did not read my post in the right prospective.
Firstly, I know what a 4 x 4 is capable of, I learnt to drive on a 118NE & 4 x 4 Gypsy. On a later stage my older brother and I would often go on similar excusrsions that you read about in the Offroading section of the forum.
But I even know that I most certainly do not need the 4 x 4 advantage for my daily drive. The Scorpio's 4 x 2, high GC, super motor, generous storage and now coupled with ABS is a superb package for my daily drive, almost custom made for me.
Like TSK pointed out, you have to realise that majority of the Safaris, Scorpios, heck even Pajeros (which I believe comes equipped with the lusted 4 x 4) do not ever see terrain that would require a 4 x 4 advantage. So I meant for a daily drive, and even over some rough terrain the 4 x 2 is almost as good as 4 x 4.




I experienced this a few times through the Mumbai-Pune expressway, back then I related this to strong cross winds, a possible ill alignment and the tinny body shell.

manson.
Well the whole discussion is pointless now. The guy asked us to suggest a car for which I said Innova since Safari and Scorpio arent as good if he isnt particularly looking for a 4x4. You come with examples of lugging loads and then 4x2 being almost as good and hence my reply. I think he should have made this decision already given there's enough feedback on the subject and more.

The only thing that puts me off is that someone who has actually been on a 4x4 excurion saying that 4x2 is almost as good! For god's sake it not. 4X4 doesnt means that you will be climbing mountains but you will be able to go to places with much more confidence and surety that if terrain goes wrong the 4x4 gear will help you pull out.

I am out of this. Peace!
extreme_torque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2009, 14:47   #223
Team-BHP Support
 
manson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 3,547
Thanked: 2,035 Times
Default Before you leave this thread:

[quote=extreme_torque;1290949]You come with examples of lugging loads

That is exactly what the U from SUV represents, atleast in my books. U = utility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
and then 4x2 being almost as good and hence my reply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
The only thing that puts me off is that someone who has actually been on a 4x4 excurion saying that 4x2 is almost as good! For god's sake it not. 4X4 doesnt means that you will be climbing mountains but you will be able to go to places with much more confidence and surety that if terrain goes wrong the 4x4 gear will help you pull out.
Here is what i clearly mentioned:

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson View Post
Like TSK pointed out, you have to realise that majority of the Safaris, Scorpios, heck even Pajeros (which I believe comes equipped with the lusted 4 x 4) do not ever see terrain that would require a 4 x 4 advantage. So I meant for a daily drive, and even over some rough terrain the 4 x 2 is almost as good as 4 x 4.
I'd suggest reading in full, and not between the lines.

manson.
manson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2009, 17:38   #224
Distinguished - BHPian
 
phamilyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 5,601
Thanked: 3,451 Times
Default

Its time for CLEANUP.

This fighting is irrelevant for helping bhp1.

Mods please do the needful.
phamilyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2009, 18:04   #225
Senior - BHPian
 
raj_5004's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dubai/Mumbai
Posts: 5,078
Thanked: 2,031 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson View Post
I experienced this a few times through the Mumbai-Pune expressway, back then I related this to strong cross winds, a possible ill alignment and the tinny body shell.

manson.
same here. even i experienced this on the mumbai pune express highway. since, my innova was brand new then, even i thought its just an alighnment problem. but the very next day, i got this checked & the alignment was perfect. i think this is due to the puny tyres which cant hold a straight line at high speeds, hence the innova tramlines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Its time for CLEANUP.

This fighting is irrelevant for helping bhp1.

Mods please do the needful.
yes, havent heard from bhp1 for long. guess he wants to stay out of this debate!

@ bhp1: buddy, i would still recommend you the innova since interior space and top notch reliability are your priorities. but come rough roads & you will be more comfortable in a scorpio.
raj_5004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
High-end head phones VS High-end Speakers low_bass_makker In-Car Entertainment 43 30th July 2012 20:39
Morel vs DLS {High End Tweeters - High levels of confusion} Mi10 In-Car Entertainment 5 8th September 2010 18:03
Are High Octanes really high OCTANE pratheesh Technical Stuff 9 20th September 2006 22:48
SuggestmeaGoodCar->FundrivingE&comfortable Apurba The Indian Car Scene 10 5th November 2004 10:38


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 06:45.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks