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Old 18th December 2008, 12:50   #106
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
but i would not agree to the scorpio's relibilty aspect you mentioned.

cheers:
I am not talking about scorpio reliability. I am talking about 4x4 shift on the fly systems. Borg Warner to be precise. They are fitted in many vehicles, and are not as reliable as the manual 4x4. Nothing to do with soft roader, off roader capabilities or whether you can climb mount everest.
the Electronic shift on the fly has more moving parts, and is much more complex than regular manual 4x4 shifter. Thats why there is more chance of failure.
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Old 18th December 2008, 12:52   #107
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even the safari has an electronic shift on the fly bro.
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Old 18th December 2008, 13:04   #108
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
even the safari has an electronic shift on the fly bro.
Thats why I said that Apart from money part 4x4 system(reliablity etc., etc.,) there is no difference between safari and scorpio except for VFM part, and some more goodies in safari like LSD and alloy wheels!
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Old 18th December 2008, 13:13   #109
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Please also consider that Safari is a 10+ year old design and hence is not the best option safety wise. I could see, TATA improving the suspension/drivetrain bits, but still the body is almost the same as from the start and its crashworthiness will be far short of modern designs.

Hence, even with the ride comfort being the first priority, I would strongly recommend you go with something other than Safari which is of better/modern design safety wise.
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Old 18th December 2008, 13:19   #110
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Have you tried the Crde Bolero?
I think you had tried the DI turbo and liked its ride quality.

The Crde,is quite fast as compared to its older cousins 0-100 in 18.xx secs and 135km/hr top whack
Thanks, yes I have tried DI Bolero & it seemed to have good ride quality but poor pickup.
I did not get a chance to try the CRDI yet, but its high cost is a detterent as I feel at the same price Scorpio or others seem lot more VFM.


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Originally Posted by hrag View Post
The 4x4 on the Safari / Scorpio will help you get out of slush (the types you encounter on unfinished roads / highways), provide better traction on gravel and enable you to climb / descend steep inclines should there be a need. If your usage is primarily on-road, it will provide that additional peace-of-mind factor if you encounter really bad gravelly / slushy roads and / or inclines.
Thanks that was informative! Actually I love adventure sports & specially offroading. Now, that I have a chance to buy a car for myself, I might as well go in for one which helps in fulfilling my dreams!
I did do some level of offroading with my Gypsy, its quite a capable machine for that but ride quality is dismal & played a part in spoiling my back situation.

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
4x4 is available on the Scorpio SLX model as well as the Getaway of course. One has to order it specially, pay the advance and wait for delivery. Could take anywhere from 1 month to 3 months or so.

It costs about a lac or lac and half more than the plain normal 2WD SLX

The Scorp 4WD is a good vehicle - tough and reliable for most general, but not extreme situations. However, because it is a heavy and ponderous vehicle I personally would hesitate to take it into deep slush/ swampy terrain where I used to take my old Gypsy or my old MM540/550. I would even take a 4WD Bolero into some of those places because the Bolero is lighter than the Scorp and more basic in nature.


For extreme mud/ slush etc, I believe it is a pretty much accepted fact by most serious off-road people that the old traditional mechanical 4WD jeep type vehicles are better suited when compared with the newer electrical/ electronically operated systems available, except perhaps when it comes to the serious off roaders like the Land Rover, Pajero, Land Cruiser etc.
Thanks, so the diff. in pricing of 2x2 compared to 4x4 is huge. I mean ~ 1.5L is way too much. Also, the limited offroading ability they offer, doesn't make for a strong case in their favour.
Btw, is the Bolero still available in 2x2 guise?

The posts by TSK & Raj were informative & what is evident is that Safari 4x4 makes more sense than Scorpio 4x4.

Otherwise, where are the Mahindra jeeps, the 550/540's ? Are these still available, on order maybe?
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Old 18th December 2008, 14:13   #111
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Originally Posted by bhp1 View Post
Thanks, so the diff. in pricing of 2x2 compared to 4x4 is huge. I mean ~ 1.5L is way too much. Also, the limited offroading ability they offer, doesn't make for a strong case in their favour.
Btw, is the Bolero still available in 2x2 guise?

The posts by TSK & Raj were informative & what is evident is that Safari 4x4 makes more sense than Scorpio 4x4.

Otherwise, where are the Mahindra jeeps, the 550/540's ? Are these still available, on order maybe?
4x2 buddy, not 2x2.

yes, mahindra does make the 4x4 jeeps, nothing like it for off roading. actually you even have the force gurkha if you are that serious.
but do you really want to sacrifice comfort for the sake of off roading?

anyways, if you are interested, go the mahindra-customisation.com and check out the mahinda souvenir concept and bolero inspira.
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Old 18th December 2008, 14:36   #112
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hi dude

ive been in "silent observation" mode for a while

well - extreme terrain notwithstanding, this borg warner electric shift on the fly 4WD which is mounted in Safari as well as Scorpio is not all that great when compared with the old type of stick shift 4WD.

cheers

shankar

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
long time no see shankar!

yes, the limitations of such vehicles are very apparent in such conditions.
the problems with the 3 scorpios which tsk said came into picture because an event like the great escape with such extreme terrains was organised in the first place!
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Old 18th December 2008, 14:51   #113
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Bolero Crde is an ON Road machine, not an off roader at all. No 4WD option yet.

Crde engines are not the best in situations where you need hauling power, such as Off Road slush etc or in the hills. They are great on highways etc though. On reflection and after having owned a Crde Scorp for some time, I am of the belief that the older Scorpio either 2WD or 4WD, with the 2.6 NON Crde Turbo Engine, would be a better bet for hilly terrain and some light-ish off roading. Certainly better than the present Crde engine, largely because the old engine has far better low end torque.

Can consider a DI Turbo engine Bolero but this only comes in 2WD.
Best would be the old Bolero XD3PU engine with 4WD which has a lot of low end torque which is part of what one needs in slushpits. This vehicle will give you a combination of off road ability plus on road comfort when compared with the Gypsy or MM540/550 etc.

I would reject the Safari 4WD as my off road vehicle of choice - mostly because it is even heavier and more ponderous than the Scorpio 4WD. This also has the 2.2 Dicor engine (pretty much the same technology as the MHawk Crde 2.2 engine). This engine is excellent for highway driving etc but I dont think it will do the job for serious off road work.

I do appreciate the 2.2 4WD Safari has a better engine than the 2.6 4WD Scorpio but thats it. These are not true 4WD off road vehicles which you can use, abuse and ram up and down the dirty bits of the world. For that, you need a LandCruiser or a Land Rover. At best, the Safari, Scorpio etc are Sheep in Wolf's clothing when it comes to serious off road ability.

The old MM540 types are available in the used market but they are certainly not comfy, when compared with the Bolero or Scorpio. IN terms of sheer comfort the Safari is the best given the competition mentioned in this post.

One can order the Mahindra MM550 and the Mahindra Major by paying an advance and waiting for 3 months or so. These vehicles are only made against order. Same with the Gypsy.But these really are the ones that have max off road ability plus are affordable for regular joe's like us.

Of course if you can afford it, then go and buy a Pajero or a Landcruiser or a Landrover and ENJOY!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by bhp1 View Post
Thanks, yes I have tried DI Bolero & it seemed to have good ride quality but poor pickup.
I did not get a chance to try the CRDI yet, but its high cost is a detterent as I feel at the same price Scorpio or others seem lot more VFM.




Thanks that was informative! Actually I love adventure sports & specially offroading. Now, that I have a chance to buy a car for myself, I might as well go in for one which helps in fulfilling my dreams!
I did do some level of offroading with my Gypsy, its quite a capable machine for that but ride quality is dismal & played a part in spoiling my back situation.



Thanks, so the diff. in pricing of 2x2 compared to 4x4 is huge. I mean ~ 1.5L is way too much. Also, the limited offroading ability they offer, doesn't make for a strong case in their favour.
Btw, is the Bolero still available in 2x2 guise?

The posts by TSK & Raj were informative & what is evident is that Safari 4x4 makes more sense than Scorpio 4x4.

Otherwise, where are the Mahindra jeeps, the 550/540's ? Are these still available, on order maybe?

Last edited by shankar.balan : 18th December 2008 at 14:55.
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Old 18th December 2008, 15:03   #114
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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post

Crde engines are not the best in situations where you need hauling power, such as Off Road slush etc or in the hills.
Any reason for this ? How common rail affects the hauling power ( I presume it
to be same as low end torque )
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Old 18th December 2008, 15:17   #115
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i am not able to explain it exactly not being an accredited expert, but with this Crde Turbo engine, a lot of the power is dependent on when that turbo kicks in.
In the older engine,especially in the hills, I ve found it much better, especially while taking sharp and steep hair pin bends. It bites smoothly and has more than enough low end torque to chug along without difficulty.
I find that with this Crde Scorp I am having to downshift just a tad earlier than I would have, in an older Scorp or in the old Bolero because just as one is getting into the steep bit of the curve/ hairpin bend, I feel a certain lack of grunt until the turbo kicks in.
I have had this discussion on this forum with Anup Mathur around 6-7 months ago and he indeed, had tried to explain this to me at that time.
Anup, perhaps you could step in please and clarify better than I have??

again- I would hesitate to take a crde into deep slush/ water because it is electronic and might die, leaving me literally in the slush pit without a paddle!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Any reason for this ? How common rail affects the hauling power ( I presume it
to be same as low end torque )

Last edited by shankar.balan : 18th December 2008 at 15:19.
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Old 18th December 2008, 17:29   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post

again- I would hesitate to take a crde into deep slush/ water because it is electronic and might die, leaving me literally in the slush pit without a paddle!
@Shankar: Your post is excellent http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/images...s/Clapping.gif


But many on the forum think otherwise. Cheers
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Old 18th December 2008, 17:37   #117
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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Crde engines are not the best in situations where you need hauling power, such as Off Road slush etc or in the hills.


I would reject the Safari 4WD as my off road vehicle of choice - mostly because it is even heavier and more ponderous than the Scorpio 4WD. This also has the 2.2 Dicor engine (pretty much the same technology as the MHawk Crde 2.2 engine). This engine is excellent for highway driving etc but I dont think it will do the job for serious off road work.

I do appreciate the 2.2 4WD Safari has a better engine than the 2.6 4WD Scorpio but thats it. These are not true 4WD off road vehicles which you can use, abuse and ram up and down the dirty bits of the world. For that, you need a LandCruiser or a Land Rover. At best, the Safari, Scorpio etc are Sheep in Wolf's clothing when it comes to serious off road ability.
Well composed post there, Shankar, but I would recommend that you abuse the 2 vehicles mentioned above - at least the Safari 4x4 is capable of more than decent off-roading capabilities AND it can take quite a bit of punishment too.

I'm not here to debate - I'm only pointing out a fact based on my personal experiences as well as those of several others here on the forum and elsewhere who have really thrashed this truck around.

Cant speak for the Scorp 4x4 because I havent seen one yet.
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Old 18th December 2008, 19:05   #118
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
4x2 buddy, not 2x2. yes, mahindra does make the 4x4 jeeps, nothing like it for off roading. actually you even have the force gurkha if you are that serious.
but do you really want to sacrifice comfort for the sake of off roading?

anyways, if you are interested, go the mahindra-customisation.com and check out the mahinda souvenir concept and bolero inspira.
Sorry, for the fault!

I went to the local Force Motors dealership to catch a glimpse of the Gurkha, but they did not have one. On persistence, the executive said that they had not sold even one Gurkha in the City. So, I would not like to get stuck with such a car, as further maintenance & upkeep would be an issue. Price too is an issue, but I have learnt so far that Gurkha is one hell of an offroader.

Im not a big fan of Mahindra customisation, somehow I did not like any of their concepts. Souvenir & Inspira are priced exhorbitantly too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Bolero Crde is an ON Road machine, not an off roader at all. No 4WD option yet.

Crde engines are not the best in situations where you need hauling power, such as Off Road slush etc or in the hills. They are great on highways etc though. On reflection and after having owned a Crde Scorp for some time, I am of the belief that the older Scorpio either 2WD or 4WD, with the 2.6 NON Crde Turbo Engine, would be a better bet for hilly terrain and some light-ish off roading. Certainly better than the present Crde engine, largely because the old engine has far better low end torque.

Can consider a DI Turbo engine Bolero but this only comes in 2WD.
Best would be the old Bolero XD3PU engine with 4WD which has a lot of low end torque which is part of what one needs in slushpits. This vehicle will give you a combination of off road ability plus on road comfort when compared with the Gypsy or MM540/550 etc.

I would reject the Safari 4WD as my off road vehicle of choice - mostly because it is even heavier and more ponderous than the Scorpio 4WD. This also has the 2.2 Dicor engine (pretty much the same technology as the MHawk Crde 2.2 engine). This engine is excellent for highway driving etc but I dont think it will do the job for serious off road work.

I do appreciate the 2.2 4WD Safari has a better engine than the 2.6 4WD Scorpio but thats it. These are not true 4WD off road vehicles which you can use, abuse and ram up and down the dirty bits of the world. For that, you need a LandCruiser or a Land Rover. At best, the Safari, Scorpio etc are Sheep in Wolf's clothing when it comes to serious off road ability.

The old MM540 types are available in the used market but they are certainly not comfy, when compared with the Bolero or Scorpio. IN terms of sheer comfort the Safari is the best given the competition mentioned in this post.

One can order the Mahindra MM550 and the Mahindra Major by paying an advance and waiting for 3 months or so. These vehicles are only made against order. Same with the Gypsy.But these really are the ones that have max off road ability plus are affordable for regular joe's like us.

Of course if you can afford it, then go and buy a Pajero or a Landcruiser or a Landrover and ENJOY!!!
Thanks very much, this was very informative, I learned a lot.
About the Bolero, is XDP3 the Peugeot engine? If yes, then it won't comply with latest Euro norms. Also, it is a little lethargic on road & my 80-85% usage would be on road.

Are you sure that 550 can be ordered, as local Mahindra dealer said its not possible. I really like the 550, any idea about the price of a new one if it can be ordered?

I can afford the Pajero, but won't stretch for Landcruiser/Landrover as even if I buy one of those, I would be scared to death to take them offroad!
Also, Pajero is a very old vehicle & showing its age now, I would prefer the Endeavour instead.
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Old 18th December 2008, 19:15   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Bolero Crde is an ON Road machine, not an off roader at all. No 4WD option yet.

Crde engines are not the best in situations where you need hauling power, such as Off Road slush etc or in the hills. They are great on highways etc though. On reflection and after having owned a Crde Scorp for some time, I am of the belief that the older Scorpio either 2WD or 4WD, with the 2.6 NON Crde Turbo Engine, would be a better bet for hilly terrain and some light-ish off roading. Certainly better than the present Crde engine, largely because the old engine has far better low end torque.

Can consider a DI Turbo engine Bolero but this only comes in 2WD.
Best would be the old Bolero XD3PU engine with 4WD which has a lot of low end torque which is part of what one needs in slushpits. This vehicle will give you a combination of off road ability plus on road comfort when compared with the Gypsy or MM540/550 etc.

I would reject the Safari 4WD as my off road vehicle of choice - mostly because it is even heavier and more ponderous than the Scorpio 4WD. This also has the 2.2 Dicor engine (pretty much the same technology as the MHawk Crde 2.2 engine). This engine is excellent for highway driving etc but I dont think it will do the job for serious off road work.

I do appreciate the 2.2 4WD Safari has a better engine than the 2.6 4WD Scorpio but thats it. These are not true 4WD off road vehicles which you can use, abuse and ram up and down the dirty bits of the world. For that, you need a LandCruiser or a Land Rover. At best, the Safari, Scorpio etc are Sheep in Wolf's clothing when it comes to serious off road ability.

The old MM540 types are available in the used market but they are certainly not comfy, when compared with the Bolero or Scorpio. IN terms of sheer comfort the Safari is the best given the competition mentioned in this post.

One can order the Mahindra MM550 and the Mahindra Major by paying an advance and waiting for 3 months or so. These vehicles are only made against order. Same with the Gypsy.But these really are the ones that have max off road ability plus are affordable for regular joe's like us.

Of course if you can afford it, then go and buy a Pajero or a Landcruiser or a Landrover and ENJOY!!!
this is the best post in this entire thread. so well written and covered each and every point. i can only agree to whatever he mentioned.

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Originally Posted by bhp1 View Post
Im not a big fan of Mahindra customisation, somehow I did not like any of their concepts. Souvenir & Inspira are priced exhorbitantly too.


I can afford the Pajero, but won't stretch for Landcruiser/Landrover as even if I buy one of those, I would be scared to death to take them offroad!
Also, Pajero is a very old vehicle & showing its age now, I would prefer the Endeavour instead.
of course they are priced high, they are customised! i will readily pay 6 lakhs for the souvenir, i have seen the capabilities of the classic. but i agree, sometimes you have to think practically.

dude, if you have the budget of a pajero and endeavour, why are you wasting your time over the scorpio/safari? go buy a pajero man, its a helluva machine even if the design is old. the endy too is better except for the fact that it still retains its bouncy leaf spring suspension.
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Old 18th December 2008, 19:31   #120
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
of course they are priced high, they are customised! i will readily pay 6 lakhs for the souvenir, i have seen the capabilities of the classic. but i agree, sometimes you have to think practically.

dude, if you have the budget of a pajero and endeavour, why are you wasting your time over the scorpio/safari? go buy a pajero man, its a helluva machine even if the design is old. the endy too is better except for the fact that it still retains its bouncy leaf spring suspension.
Souvenir costs 6L ! Well this is not huge, but important creature comforts are missing.

I do have Endy/Pajero in sight, but the thing is that at that price, other excellent cars are available. Now, even if I buy one of these, I won't be able to extract their full 4x4 potential, due to the initial procurement price & then the fear of recurring bills due to 4x4 abuse.
Where as I will be be able to put Scorp/Safari to full use/abuse & not worry much.
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