[bblost]

Originally Posted by dwaraka

If you wiki North Pennar/ Uttara Pinakini, you will see reference to rampant illegal sand on this river bed. Naturally villagers and cops will have concern over any body entering the place.

How do you illegal sand quarrying using a jeep(SWB) that can barely seat 4 people.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by bblost

How do you illegal sand quarrying using a jeep(SWB) that can barely seat 4 people.

Its the other way round. They (local people and police) are trying to protect the illegal sand miners, its a huge mafia here. And not the other way round. LOL!!!

This is a corrupt place man. Horrendously and massively.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by dwaraka

Tanveer,

Reserve forest has restriction for any kind of activity by public. We are not talking about RF.

If you wiki North Pennar/ Uttara Pinakini, you will see reference to rampant illegal sand quarrying on this river bed. Naturally villagers and cops will have concern over any body entering the place.

We had to explain the cops about activity not endangering or illegal. We were told to seek permission for future offroading in that area.

Maybe the restriction is because they don't want outsiders to know about illegal mining. all it takes a post on TOI blog, and the courts issue orders, and this cuts the revenue source of villagers/cops who benefit from such illegal activities.

EDIT: I guess spitfire already made the point. I remember how gurgaon cycling group exposed illegal mining in aravalies, after that the courts issued orders(not that it made a difference)

[Sudarshan]

Originally Posted by dwaraka

SV,

Discussions here post my comment are going away from concern.

My observation is not about small group going on OTR. One or two offroaders try to go on Offroading in sensitive places like forest, river bed and such other trails where the locals or authorities will have objections. These kind of adventures will make our future jaunts on the trails difficult.

Sirji , what you mean is behaviour -- its not necessary that one or two vehicles/people will behave wrongly --- a whole lot of 20 can behave badly.

IMHO you are making a point that 2/3 peoples wrongdoing is earning a bad name to the serious ones & also to group organizers which is making life on trail difficult . Now If I am correct the thread name should be changed to > Individual bad behaviour -- killing group 4X4 activity

Bad behaviour has nothing to do with numbers , in fact larger the number more the nuisance & more of grabbing attention of locals & authorities .

There was one such instance, where two offroaders tried their hands entering Avalakonda forest and we chased away by Forest Department guards with a stern warning not to enter the forest again.

don't you think the smaller number made their 'escape ' easy ? & were fortunate to be let off as one off instance for their ignorance to law ?

You have pointed out a very big ( future ) Issue here . I have been visiting remote corners of the state for a while now, since my college days ( 1982 --my first group of trekking ) I remember villagers were polite & authorities were helpful . As the number grew everything has become a mess a few 'Fun loving ' & flashy showoffs have ruined the scenes .This Is going to happen with offroading too

We swarm up the quiet village surroundings , make lot of noise , disturb the cattle herds & their grazing . we enter into holly places ( lands ) where others are not permitted . we do 'donuts ' & some hardcore show offs , we ignore & avoid to talk with the village chief because he wears torn & dusty cloths .

we enter into water stocks ,dam reservoirs where 'they' depend on it for their livelihood . we enter in to fields freshly sown . we ignore Forrest markings , we simply miss a heap of stones which is a Forrest marker

there is much more to discuss , do people want to listen to ?

Sirji , can we learn to respect the place & people we visit ?

Sudarshan

[sachinj12]

Not an off-roader,but a Q from my end.

A lot of guests read our post (which are very detailed), if they go to these places and do off-roading and cause trouble, what can we do? To add, anyone can buy TBHP stickers and sport it one their ride.

@ Dwaraka, I know your intentions are in good spirit, but asking people not to do individual OTRs wouldn't solve the problem.


Apart from the suggestion given by many BHpians, we can put out a request for people to be more responsible.

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Nobody does OTRs on rented jeeps. Its their own vehicle. So what economic cost? The main premise it that villagers object to their villages being used for offroading, unless they get money for the same. This leads to fights etc., more so in south India, because there all public roads are paved, and all unpaved tracks are private land.

I meant that eventually if you have to go help somebody, add a fixed (or hourly) cost to that, use it to fund the OTR motives. And I am not talking a token cost, neither am I talking real cost (although that would be ideal), I am talking about setting it as a deterrent to tangential behavior.

Same with breaking rules/boundaries. They lose deposit if they do not follow the rules.

This all reminds me of my trekking days , after years of trekking through & with various groups , 'organised treks '( having larger population ) me & many finally concluded that the number should not exceed 6/7 for a particular trek/expedition

This is what I was told in my HR class about an ideal team size for any effort. 5-10 is perfect.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by sachinj12

Not an off-roader,but a Q from my end.

I think Dwarak is referring to known individuals who went for a private OTR (without even checking) and did not realize the fact that it would affect other people who are faces for the offroad group at that place, and who in turn might have to face music regularly due to this act.

Am quite sure it (the act) was unintentional but unfortunately some damage was done, i assume.

@Dwarak: I hope you have picked up the phone and shared the concerns directly by now.

Anyways as a moral of the thread for all of us, its always good to be cautious when individuals or small private groups venture out on own. Especially if one does not understand the delicate equations that run behind the scene, spoken and unspoken ones.

EDIT: I think the thread title can be edited to: The Dark Side of OTR

[beejay]

Dwarak has a very valid point, these people find out some good locations and manage to effectively conduct organised OTR's. Then the participants venture out themselves and create problems. In the long run the people who found the place and conducted OTR's are in trouble and cannot conduct future events.

I have also experienced it the hard way, first and foremost there are many problems here in Nilgiris and people who had come with me previously make life even more difficult. In the end, OTR's will be allowed only in private land, i think.

[SushilBajpai]

At the end of the day doesn't it depend on what's going on in the minds and heart of people?

In order to be enjoyable, safe and, to keep any restrictive legislation at bay, every sport must ensure that it is seen as responsible, does not cause public nuisance and does no harm to the interest of any third party.

The sports should be self-regulating, should be responsible and at all time careful about the public perception of itself.

It is definitely about individual free will. But when free will of an individual appears to harm the good name of the sport, then an appeal of the kind that we read in this thread is appropriate.

However, instead of dubbing soloists as irresponsible, I think we need a set of guidelines and do's and don'ts. If there is an issue in the south of India, the trouble spots should be identified and multi-stakeholder dialogue initiated, with an intention to bring out a set practical guidelines.

There is another issue to which we should be sensitive to. The growing disparity between haves and have-nots. It is not difficult to imagine what must be going on in the minds and the hearts of people of rural community - neglected by the march of development, for that is why there is no road - trampled by dozens of rich-man's mechanized chariots raising dust and din, chatting loudly in alien language and accompanying attahaas mocking the poverty, while creating ruts in the dirt tracks that their animal drawn carts may still be using. Why pray they wouldn't seethe with anger.

This anger will vent itself whenever an opportunity arises - although the ability of two dozen imposing SUVs with their drivers dressed in foreign attire and speaking incomprehensible language might delay the reaction.

I therefore think that a pro-active approach to actively engage the community would be more appropriate. Where possible win-win situations need to be created. This could be by engaging them in mutually beneficial relationship.

It is not about giving tips, bakshish or money. It is about showing respect, contributing to people's livelihood by creating opportunities - like rural tourism (requesting them to provide tea/snacks/foods, maybe even guides), perhaps taking a couple of hours to teach them how to drive, or cultivate in them the skills to retrieve the cars that might get stuck, repair punctures, what have we.

I think we need to expand this debate and explore what could be done to make OTR more enjoyable and acceptable to all.

[dwaraka]

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

Sirji , what you mean is behaviour -- its not necessary that one or two vehicles/people will behave wrongly --- a whole lot of 20 can behave badly.

IMHO you are making a point that 2/3 peoples wrongdoing is earning a bad name to the serious ones & also to group organizers which is making life on trail difficult . Now If I am correct the thread name should be changed to > Individual bad behaviour -- killing group 4X4 activity

Bad behaviour has nothing to do with numbers , in fact larger the number more the nuisance & more of grabbing attention of locals & authorities .
Sudarshan

Sudarshan,

Valid points! Let me rephrase it as unscheduled and without permissions/consent or accompanied by local person instead of bad behaviour.

Also I mentioned about only a few individual instances which should not be construed as group or forum.

As for the big events, organisers have to make sure every participant is aware of do's and don't's. And the organisers will have taken necessary precaution not to get into muddle with local authorities and villagers.

Having said that, we can't avoid small hiccups.

Lets have fun offroading

[tsk1979]

The premise of the argument is a farse. The problem is that villagers/cops do not want their illegal activities to be exposed, so are wary of offroaders.

So statements like "Private vehicles causing inconvience are plain silly". Inconvenience to whom? Smugglers?

[hisunil]

Just saw the thread!!

I do quite some OTR's by myself or with couple of like minded folks.
Apologies if some of my trips have caused an Issue, but I do try to be very friendly with the locals & actually ask them for directions to OTR & Jeep or Mud track paths.

As far as the forest Officials are concerned, I get them exited by showing the bells & whistles of My drive, show some videos from the phone & they understand you better & let you do the trial if at all a remote possibility exists, if not you have to anyways turn back.

Last weekend (I had not seen the thread then) was near the same place & called up Mr MP Srinivas Sir for directions, he explained me the same Issue & directed me NOT to go to the OTR spot but as I was already at chikbellapur, he directed to a spot near the highway, about 12kms away from the previous OTR spot, I did not go to the OTR spot but to the other new location & had some fun.

I understand the point that individual misbehavior causes misconception & perceptions about Jeepers in general, thus making it difficult to get permissions for group events.
However I Fail to understand how it impacts Team Spirit!.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers
Sunil

[dwaraka]

Sushil ,

You have valid points. Thanks for your tips.

Individual OTR is definitely not a concern.

[mohang_j]

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

can we learn to respect the place & people we visit ?

Exactly this is what we observed in our 15+ years of trekking trips. Localities and forest dept. are behaving completely different. They are totally unhappy with the way outsiders behave. We should learn to respect them.

[jaysmokesleaves]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

So you are basically saying, as citizens of this country, we are not allowed to drive on public trails? If members are going on private land then of course its an issue, but if its a public place not notified by the govt to be off limits(national park etc.,) then anybody has the legal right to take their vehicle there. Just because of a few locals who are trying to extort money, people should not back down.
Near Delhi, there is no such villager problem.

There have been problems in the western region where villagers take offence to a horde of vehicles driving through their kaccha roads in the village damaging roads in the monsoon with deep tire ruts, etc. It also disturbs the peace and quiet of these small places who do not ever see traffic and suddenly have to bear the brunt of enthusiastic city goers wanting to have a day of fun.
On another front, this has also been used as a ploy for extortion.
In my experience, this does not happen if you venture out alone or in a small group of 3 -4 vehicles and tread cautiously without causing damage, stick to tracks without venturing out to create your own.
In many instances i have seen villagers amused and enjoying city slickers getting dirty and in some instances have also turned out to voluntarily assist vehicle extraction or even provide free tea.
I believe, respect is crucial.
If you tread cautiously, respect the local people and respect their environment without causing damage then trouble stays away.
We must acknowledge, that those living in villages also percieve an economic divide and cannot accept anyone from the city coming and walking all over their privacy, the land they call home(their village and its surroundings)
A properly organised otr should take into account these factors, take locals into confidence, make them part of the fun, create volunteers for a small pay, pay them to arrange some snacks, and give them confidence that you wont destroy their home. This can be possible in an organised group.

In the same vein, i dont think anyone has the right to stop citizens from this country from going anywhere. I have driven into some of the deepest maoist affected 4wd bastions of Orissa Jharkhand and Chattisgarh, and have realised, that local support is the most crucial to prevent any mishaps or undesired events.