[King413]

Originally Posted by Grace

Dear Redliner,
A lot of well meaning folks turnup at the OTR, but tend to wander off with new found friends or as Arka said,into small groups,the challenge as Dwarka says is to keep everyone together and not let anyone go ahead and make a complete fool of themselves and larger part of the group itself. As seniors,instead of rushing into the OTR, we should initiate newbies with basics and ride with them ,encourage them to see and learn what other seniors are doing. By ignoring them,we may lose them and then the purpose is lost.

Andy

PS: You will comprehend all these things only when you come to an OTR.

Very well said Grace,
It is very important for newbees and others to have a degree of patience and not wander off in smaller groups. In large group events inspite of doing recces there will be unforeseen changes on OTR day. Like in pinikini we finished the trail way too early and as seniors we had to look for new trail for the whole group. But when 2-3 of us were doing that I too saw a whole bunch of jeeps wandering away and also saw a jeep in a very dangerous position which took additional 2 hours of rescue time. We do take all for granted in their maturity levels, which is our fault. People must consider that organiser and marshalls put a lot of effort and risk for every OTR for the larger benifit of the group.

[vivekiny2k]

I am not an offroader, but here a little perspective from US. Off roading doesn't have to be a team sport. However, if it's organized, one has to always follow the rules or lose X. to get help if one is stuck, you need to again rely on X.

In US, X is simply translated to dollars, in India a lot of things happen on rapport. Connect an economic cost to all rogue behavior and things might be straightened out. Setup a deposit for any damage before hand (credit card hold works best, almost invisible deposit.....but not yet feasible for an OTR in india I guess).

The most important point, once it's tied down to an economic cost, the headache completely goes away. That's why in US even when you return a totally banged up car, they will smile at you just as well, because they know they are going to charge it to your credit card or insurance company

[V-16]

Good topic but i agree and i dont agree.

I personally prefer smaller groups only because they are easier to conduct, one often goes with a trusted group of friends so the camaraderie prevails and there are no sudden shocks with newbies trying to outdo each other, in a show of pseudo machoism.

Yes, while i agree to the fact national forests and areas marked as national parks, fields etc should not be in any OTR map, the phrase that individual (what i think you meant is small group) otrs are detrimental is not true. In fact, mostly its the other way around when the group is large. AT leastthats whati have EACH time experienced, enough to keep me away from newbie otr invitations and most large group events, save the AKC and the EXAMM.

Secondly, I also agree that permissions and formalities need to be sought and sorted before the event, its not right to generalize that smaller groups know nothing about the otr spirit. In anyways, who are we to stop them? While we can only educate the new comers, its their funeral if they dont take heed to the dos and donts. Not that there is a guarantee that the persons in question will stop doing what they do, just because one of us tells them not to.

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Andy, actually I go for my own private OTR's. All by myself. Alone. But I manage well. Because I HAVE A TOW ROPE.

To go for OTR alone is quite foolhardy,besides that, you don't need a tow rope,you need a winch for single vehicle OTRs, this quite shows your ..

Andy

Originally Posted by V-16

While we can only educate the new comers, its their funeral if they dont take heed to the dos and donts. Not that there is a guarantee that the persons in question will stop doing what they do, just because one of us tells them not to.

After the newbies are chased down and their jeeps confiscated, they came running back to the larger group as we witnessed, and then we seniors had to rescue and bail them out out of that situation. THEN its was our funeral too

[sudev]

My 2 paisa worth:

A very specific input for specific instances : If the organising team splits the whole OTR in to series of challenges and conduct multiple challenges simultaneously then people will be engaged. Cannot happen in a trail OTR but have seen this work in NCR where each smaller group was led away by a "senior" and after a while groups swap challenges.

End of the day similar experiences are faced all organisers and it is up to them to make the people feel engaged and not wander off ;-)

+1 about engaging newbies more. Remember old teachers adage : if you make the truant child monitor of the class problems disappear. Make more people marshals they will learn and be engaged.

[svsantosh]

May be it would be in the better interest (W/o names) - to explain specifically what happened (like damaging ones paddy field, some farms' water canal, etc) - It may help to understand what happened?

Dwarak, Roby - do you remember Komatsu Poclain incident? We all can agree that tho it was organized, it nearly turned out be a PR Incident.

This thread has 2 kinds of discussions going on -

(1) A Small mutiny/breakaway whilst a organized OTR is going on -- (VERY BAD)

(2) A handful of enthu-cutlets (like me) getting a few kiddos and wandering into no-mans land "@ Owns risk" - which is Ok I think.

Dwarak sir - if its about (1) - then we need to rename thread, else it will mislead guys.

I do a LOT of (2) in the sincere interest to avoid testosterone filled enthu-cutlets to cause (1), get them some sense of 1Low Vs 2Low, limits of articulation, ignoring a few scrapes and not cry hitting their chests over a few dinks and dents in real OTRs, etc etc... All within 2-3Kms of a NH and backup mech/recovery and absolutely no ones property.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

I am not an offroader, but here a little perspective from US. Off roading doesn't have to be a team sport. However, if it's organized, one has to always follow the rules or lose X. to get help if one is stuck, you need to again rely on X.

In US, X is simply translated to dollars, in India a lot of things happen on rapport. Connect an economic cost to all rogue behavior and things might be straightened out. Setup a deposit for any damage before hand (credit card hold works best, almost invisible deposit.....but not yet feasible for an OTR in india I guess).

The most important point, once it's tied down to an economic cost, the headache completely goes away. That's why in US even when you return a totally banged up car, they will smile at you just as well, because they know they are going to charge it to your credit card or insurance company

Nobody does OTRs on rented jeeps. Its their own vehicle. So what economic cost? The main premise it that villagers object to their villages being used for offroading, unless they get money for the same. This leads to fights etc., more so in south India, because there all public roads are paved, and all unpaved tracks are private land.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by svsantosh

This thread has 2 kinds of discussions going on -

(1) A Small mutiny/breakaway whilst a organized OTR is going on -- (VERY BAD)

(2) A handful of enthu-cutlets (like me) getting a few kiddos and wandering into no-mans land "@ Owns risk" - which is Ok I think.

I absolutely agree with this. I think Dwarak defined the issue very loosely, I am sure he means the first issue and cases where few people revisit the earlier OTR venue without any permission.

[Sudarshan]

Originally Posted by GTO

My group hasn't got into any such trouble in 10 years of off-roading. Sure, on the rare (read = RARE) occasion that a problem cropped up, we have solved it amicably and to either parties satisfaction.

And thats because >>

it's easier to maintain discipline in a smaller group than one that's large & scattered.

Am I right here ?

This all reminds me of my trekking days , after years of trekking through & with various groups , 'organised treks '( having larger population ) me & many finally concluded that the number should not exceed 6/7 for a particular trek/expedition

This can be OT, but does anyone think why problems arise with locals ? Same as GTO has pointed out (correctly) me & my 'team' ( read trekking ) never had problems & potential situation was defused in time -- only because of the size of the group

A team spirit can be maintained in a group of 4 cars & 10 people , not necessary to take along 20 cars & 50+ people

to me team or no team , people need to behave first

Sudarshan

[swastikviji]

Originally Posted by Grace

To go for OTR alone is quite foolhardy,besides that, you don't need a tow rope,you need a winch for single vehicle OTRs, this quite shows your ..

Andy

I won't agree with you Andy, last Otr Bhaskar's one trooper we took two hours to rescue, that too with 3 winches, 2 hilift jacks. One broken winch cable, two tow straps,

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by King413

Very well said Grace,
It is very important for newbees and others to have a degree of patience and not wander off in smaller groups. In large group events inspite of doing recces there will be unforeseen changes on OTR day. Like in pinikini we finished the trail way too early and as seniors we had to look for new trail for the whole group. But when 2-3 of us were doing that I too saw a whole bunch of jeeps wandering away and also saw a jeep in a very dangerous position which took additional 2 hours of rescue time. We do take all for granted in their maturity levels, which is our fault. People must consider that organiser and marshalls put a lot of effort and risk for every OTR for the larger benifit of the group.

Hi Prithvi, MPSreeni, Dwarka,

Why not pack up and head home when the OTR finishes before the scheduled time?

Most of the OTR eventualities happen when the OTR is about to finish, we get euphoric, and then get stuck well and truly.

This has happened in all OTR Groups across the country.

Regards,

Arka

[King413]

Hey Arka,
We had a 2 day event and on day one we reached the a camping spot way too early, like with in 1.5 hours of entering in the trail, due too too many villagers surrounding us, we had to take a last minute decision to change the camping spot away from river bed. The cops stopped half of the convoy and we had to give all our details, contacts, Reg Number etc and reassure the cops that we would not co'z any trouble and were let off.
MP sir is trying to break ice with the local cops so we can have a large event with permission, at this point of time if have other Jeepers go to the same trail with out permission there are chance the cops will not take it lightly and also DENY permission to us who want to hold a larger event for all members in these trails.

Prithvi

[dwaraka]

Originally Posted by svsantosh

May be it would be in the better interest (W/o names) - to explain specifically what happened (like damaging ones paddy field, some farms' water canal, etc) - It may help to understand what happened?

Dwarak, Roby - do you remember Komatsu Poclain incident? We all can agree that tho it was organized, it nearly turned out be a PR Incident.

This thread has 2 kinds of discussions going on -

(1) A Small mutiny/breakaway whilst a organized OTR is going on -- (VERY BAD)

(2) A handful of enthu-cutlets (like me) getting a few kiddos and wandering into no-mans land "@ Owns risk" - which is Ok I think.

Dwarak sir - if its about (1) - then we need to rename thread, else it will mislead guys.

I do a LOT of (2) in the sincere interest to avoid testosterone filled enthu-cutlets to cause (1), get them some sense of 1Low Vs 2Low, limits of articulation, ignoring a few scrapes and not cry hitting their chests over a few dinks and dents in real OTRs, etc etc... All within 2-3Kms of a NH and backup mech/recovery and absolutely no ones property.

SV,

Discussions here post my comment are going away from concern.

My observation is not about small group going on OTR. One or two offroaders try to go on Offroading in sensitive places like forest, river bed and such other trails where the locals or authorities will have objections. These kind of adventures will make our future jaunts on the trails difficult.

There was one such instance, where two offroaders tried their hands entering Avalakonda forest and we chased away by Forest Department guards with a stern warning not to enter the forest again.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by dwaraka

SV,

Discussions here post my comment are going away from concern.

My observation is not about small group going on OTR. One or two offroaders try to go on Offroading in sensitive places like forest, river bed and such other trails where the locals or authorities will have objections. These kind of adventures will make our future jaunts on the trails difficult.

There was one such instance, where two offroaders tried their hands entering Avalakonda forest and we chased away by Forest Department guards with a stern warning not to enter the forest again.

Why is a river bed off limits if its not part of a reserve forest?
A reserve forest will not and should not allow an OTR whether a small group or a large group.

[dwaraka]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Why is a river bed off limits if its not part of a reserve forest?
A reserve forest will not and should not allow an OTR whether a small group or a large group.

Tanveer,

Reserve forest has restriction for any kind of activity by public. We are not talking about RF.

If you wiki North Pennar/ Uttara Pinakini, you will see reference to rampant illegal sand quarrying on this river bed. Naturally villagers and cops will have concern over any body entering the place.

We had to explain the cops about activity not endangering or illegal. We were told to seek permission for future offroading in that area.