[mr.sinha]

Originally Posted by CountMe91

I am based out at Unitech. Would be nice to meet you in person. Can you PM me your details?

But I must say manoeuvring the Scorpio into BIPL's parking should be difficult given the narrow inclines.

PM-ed you with my cell#.

In the BIPL ramp, I have to take a 3-point turn for at least 3 or 4 corners. I have no problem, but if there is a small car behind me on the up ramp, its starts honking madly

[CountMe91]

Just as I had expected. I now wonder how X1's move up in the BIPL ramp. I have seen BMW's/Audi's move up in BIPL as well.

Originally Posted by mr.sinha

PM-ed you with my cell#.

In the BIPL ramp, I have to take a 3-point turn for at least 3 or 4 corners. I have no problem, but if there is a small car behind me on the up ramp, its starts honking madly

[desertfox]

There is a bit of Thar Vs. Scorpio question being raised here. As I am an owner of both let me explain a few things.

Neither Scorpio nor Thar is a hard core off road cabaple vehciles. Both are a poor mans also rans. Scorpio is no Landcruiser 70 or 90 GX standard even and Thar is not a Wrangler.

As regards off roading in a scorpio, the insurance inspector better be your best friend or better still a brother in law.

Very low angle of approach. Very doubdful 4WD electronic borg warner 4WD switchgear with known history of failures.

All that useless plastic and mudflaps integrated into bumpers can be very costly repairs indeed. Sure to peel off even in casual off road trails forget about intermediate level trails.

For obstacles the engine needs a flatter torque curve through a sustained rpm range. 2000 rpm to 4000 rpm not drop after peaking. Such performances come in straight six or V8 engines not 4 cyl diesels.

The Thars 2500 CRDe engine is better on torque has a manual shift, is lighter by 850 kg has a better angle of approach and will be cheaper to repair.

A Thar owner may get bumpers, side boards free from people who have discarded them from on upgading to fancier things.

Purely on an offroading prspective Thar will score over 4WD scorpio.

I will also recommend to read this post of mine addressed to Vinod Nookla of Mahindra Marketing.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ex...-2014-a-2.html

[1100D]

Originally Posted by desertfox

Neither Scorpio nor Thar is a hard core off road cabaple vehciles. Both are a poor mans also rans. Scorpio is no Landcruiser 70 or 90 GX standard even and Thar is not a Wrangler.

Agreed, but at about a fraction of the price of a Wrangler or a LC, we are not expecting them to be.

Originally Posted by desertfox

As regards off roading in a scorpio, the insurance inspector better be your best friend or better still a brother in law.

Isn't this true for any vehicle being used off-road. Is this specific to the Scorpio?

Originally Posted by desertfox

Very low angle of approach. Very doubdful 4WD electronic borg warner 4WD switchgear with known history of failures.

Your suggestion please, in the priceband, of something that has better angle of approach, a different 4WD actuation and has comfortable seating atleast for 5 and a lockable cabin, with all creature comforts?

By the way, the angle of Approach, in the case of Scorpio, can easily be made better by taking off the front bumper, or even reverting to Bumpers from the pre-refresh model.

However, I do not find the Angle of approach an issue anymore even with the stock bumper of Marengo, its the breakover angle and the angle of departure that makes it a little sad.

Pic from an OTR early last year

Originally Posted by desertfox

All that useless plastic and mudflaps integrated into bumpers can be very costly repairs indeed. Sure to peel off even in casual off road trails forget about intermediate level trails.

Marengo has been hanging out with the Kolkata off-roaders group for around 4 years now, Did not have to involve itself in any offroad related repairs, even the cladding is intact.

Originally Posted by desertfox

For obstacles the engine needs a flatter torque curve through a sustained rpm range. 2000 rpm to 4000 rpm not drop after peaking. Such performances come in straight six or V8 engines not 4 cyl diesels.

Please suggest something in the price range that has a better configured engine.

Originally Posted by desertfox

I will also recommend to read this post of mine addressed to Vinod Nookla of Mahindra Marketing.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ex...-2014-a-2.html

Very interesting points indeed. Hope you get a proper answer there, apart from, probably a pointer to a standard disclaimer, that its purely owners risk and the organisers hold no responsibility for eventuality arising out of participating in the event. If you note, the obstacles can be avoided by a driver if he feels as there are alternate routes.

[desertfox]

But the NIOC expect me to go out and win it for them. Thats the difficult part.

Off roading on desrt sands and wadis in one thing but on hard caked mud and slush and deliberately entering unfordable depth water is quite the other.

Coming to your questions ;

Pure offroading - Thar with hard top ( Rs. 50,000 ) ad Central locking ( Rs. 3000 )
Offroading with creature comforts - Scorpio VLX Rs. 14 Lakhs or LE Rs. 10 Lakhs. Today the lower 4WD LE also comes with MHawk engine.

Or a second hand LC 80 for about Rs 10 to 12 lakhs. But parts availability finding a good mechanic etc. remains a bother.

I bought a new Landcruiser Prado LWB in 1999 for Rs. 11 Lakhs ( Dhs. 93,500 ) in Dubai
And a Scorpio VLX 4WD in Feb 2011 for Rs. 12.65 Lakhs in Gurgaon.

Even this Thar CRDe came for Rs. 8.14 Lakh. The tax structure is so bad in India.

You have been lucky with your Marengo.

Approach, Departure and breakover angles are poor.
Both front and rear mudflaps are recipe for disaster offroad
As is the side board with courtesy lights.
Removing a bumper to go offroading - Not easy practically.

When the Landcruiser 200 was launched with a skirt bumper I went to Marshal in the Gulf news fun drive to Liwa desert in 2006 with the bumper removed and spare wheel inside the vehicle not under it but it was an Al Futtaim Motors test drive vehicle provided free for they were the sponsors. Not my effort. On an individual basis it is very difficult removing bumpers every time.

And there are reports of high failure levels of the borg warner system it shorts under water.

[gearhead_mait]

Originally Posted by 1100D

Agreed, but at about a fraction of the price of a Wrangler or a LC, we are not expecting them to be.

Originally Posted by desertfox

Pure offroading - Thar with hard top ( Rs. 50,000 ) ad Central locking ( Rs. 3000 )
Offroading with creature comforts - Scorpio VLX Rs. 14 Lakhs or LE Rs. 10 Lakhs. Today the lower 4WD LE also comes with MHawk engine.

Or a second hand LC 80 for about Rs 10 to 12 lakhs. But parts availability finding a good mechanic etc. remains a bother.

I bought a new Landcruiser Prado LWB in 1999 for Rs. 11 Lakhs ( Dhs. 93,500 ) in Dubai
And a Scorpio VLX 4WD in Feb 2011 for Rs. 12.65 Lakhs in Gurgaon.

Even this Thar CRDe came for Rs. 8.14 Lakh. The tax structure is so bad in India.

@Anirban da & desertfox:

The price of the Jeep Wrangler is not so steep, atleast in the global market. The price post launch (if at all) in India is a different story.
I found this :



With the price range, it's head on with the XUV 500 and Storme a well. I don't know what to say, but there isn't anybody who would dare to compare a Wrangler with either of the two.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by desertfox

Pure offroading - Thar with hard top ( Rs. 50,000 ) ad Central locking ( Rs. 3000 )
Offroading with creature comforts - Scorpio VLX Rs. 14 Lakhs or LE Rs. 10 Lakhs. Today the lower 4WD LE also comes with MHawk engine.

On Marengo, I have front facing 2nd Row of seats that can recline, 4-doors, Ability to add more seats (third row - that too front facing). A body that's free from rattles and leaks even after having gone to hell and back many times over.

So, from a "creature comforts" standpoint, a Thar can not me made into a Scorpio 4x4. Just the same way as, from the perspective of Offroading, Scorpio 4x4 cannot be made into a Thar (without extensive modifications).

They are different products for different sets of people. Like in my case, I bought Marengo as an alternative to buying an Innova!

Originally Posted by desertfox

Or a second hand LC 80 for about Rs 10 to 12 lakhs. But parts availability finding a good mechanic etc. remains a bother.

In contrast, Spares for the scorpio is available at the workshop and they are more than forthcoming to honour extended warranty.

Originally Posted by desertfox

I bought a new Landcruiser Prado LWB in 1999 for Rs. 11 Lakhs ( Dhs. 93,500 ) in Dubai
And a Scorpio VLX 4WD in Feb 2011 for Rs. 12.65 Lakhs in Gurgaon.

Even this Thar CRDe came for Rs. 8.14 Lakh. The tax structure is so bad in India.

It will not help us if we compare the prices and tax structure from different countries. Infact, if the tax structure was proper, the T-fort and Pajero Sport would have been near-about the same price range, would have added an entire dimension to the equation.

Originally Posted by desertfox

Approach, Departure and breakover angles are poor.

Again, with respect to what? (Is it in the same price-point and class , no use comparing Thar/Gurkha at the lower side and the Prado on the other)

Originally Posted by desertfox

Both front and rear mudflaps are recipe for disaster offroad
As is the side board with courtesy lights.

If you note! Marengo has neither!

Originally Posted by desertfox

Removing a bumper to go offroading - Not easy practically.

On the scorpio its a relatively simple job, disconnect the fog lamp bulbs and remove 4 nuts.

Originally Posted by gearhead_mait

I don't know what to say, but there isn't anybody who would dare to compare a Wrangler with either of the two.

If Offroading was a priority, yes, no one will compare, but Thar comes at half the pricepoint of the XUV500/Storme.

But one who is contrained to get multiple uses of the same vehicle, primarily a 5+ seat vehicle easy entry exit for the rear section (read it as, 4 doors) and would want to still extract some degree of fun from the vehicle (not strangulated into buying the Innova/Xylo) and constrained at the pocket to the lower part of 1.5 million rupees, would still be looking at a Scorp 4x4, wherein, the new one thats coming up will make a lot of sense.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by Samba

From left that's 1100D (Anirban Ghosh), UBS sir and me.

Attachment 1271020

From left 1100D (Anirban Ghosh), UBS sir and Mr.Sinha.

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Marengo posing proudly towards the end of the OTR.

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Other jeeps posing proudly too after the OTR.

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But at the final exit Marengo and this jeep were royally stuck! It was already 6-15pm. By the time these two were recovered it was already 8pm. The jeep required 1.30 hrs for recovery and we thought Marengo will require more time but surprisingly Marengo was recovered within 5 minutes!

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This gypsy was posing like a king when Marengo and the other jeep were been rescued.

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The rescue operation going on.

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At the end both were recovered while it was raining. All's well that ends well!

Attachment 1271054

By 8-30pm we started from the OTR spot. Anirban da dropped me to Azadhind Dhaba, as my car was parked over there. He drove about 100kms extra just for me, so i can pick my car. A big thanks to him. Finally we reached back home around 12am. What a day it was. Got up in the morning at 4-30am to attain the Team Bhp meet by 6am. Attended the Team Bhp meet followed by the OTR and reached back home at 12am. 18 hours of sheer pleasure among cars & jeeps! What more can i ask for!!!

Last but not the least the Kolkata offroader's group is just fantastic. The brotherhood they share among each other is beyond thinking in today's world. Hats off to this group.

And lastly i got addicted to OTR's and jeeps from my very first visit! So eagerly waiting for more to come...!!!

Samba, what a great piece that was ! And the photos captured the full ambiance of the event - enough to convert the most staid motorist to an off-roader's view ! Thanks again.

[me_sid]

Samba, nice crisp report, and needless to say stunning pictures. Now seeing this I think its good that I didn't go. Would have been bitten by the Jeep bug, pretty badly.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by desertfox

There is a bit of Thar Vs. Scorpio question being raised here. As I am an owner of both let me explain a few things.

Neither Scorpio nor Thar is a hard core off road cabaple vehciles. Both are a poor mans also rans. Scorpio is no Landcruiser 70 or 90 GX standard even and Thar is not a Wrangler.

As regards off roading in a scorpio, the insurance inspector better be your best friend or better still a brother in law.

Very low angle of approach. Very doubdful 4WD electronic borg warner 4WD switchgear with known history of failures.

All that useless plastic and mudflaps integrated into bumpers can be very costly repairs indeed. Sure to peel off even in casual off road trails forget about intermediate level trails.

For obstacles the engine needs a flatter torque curve through a sustained rpm range. 2000 rpm to 4000 rpm not drop after peaking. Such performances come in straight six or V8 engines not 4 cyl diesels.

The Thars 2500 CRDe engine is better on torque has a manual shift, is lighter by 850 kg has a better angle of approach and will be cheaper to repair.

A Thar owner may get bumpers, side boards free from people who have discarded them from on upgading to fancier things.

Purely on an offroading prspective Thar will score over 4WD scorpio.

I will also recommend to read this post of mine addressed to Vinod Nookla of Mahindra Marketing.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ex...-2014-a-2.html

Dear desert fox,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but going thru' the above one gets the impression that owning a particular vehicle(or vehicles), simultaneously confers the rights of being the vehicle(s) designer and passing ad hoc judgement !

Leaving aside all the rest of it, what caught my eye was the sweeping statement about torque curves and linking them to cylinder configurations - 4-in-line / strt 6 / V-8 !

Thus, all the pundits who assumed that the current generation of compression ignition machinery (read common rail injection systems) depended on commencement and cut-off of injection timing (whether solenoid or peizo controlled) as well as rail pressures, compression ratios, and type of turbo-charging (single stage or twin-scroll etc for the scavenging pressure ratios), among a host of other parameters for their torque characteristics - are all wrong !
We await enlightenment !

[desertfox]

For very serious offroading yes as of date diesels dont come into play it is the V8 or straight 6 of a Nissan or Toyota. But things may change fast.

An exception is an event like camel camel trophy where only landrover discovery competed and won. Probably on British made petrol engines it is 4200 cc I guess straight six and some diesels too.

No matter what the diesel technology is being used - end of the day there has to be delivery.

200 bhp on a 1800 Kg vehcle. 300 to 430 N/M of torque through 1800 rpm to 4000 rpm flat peak range curve is a must. Deliver that. After that comes the 70 % part the man behind the wheels himself.

When the Landcruiser 200 was launched Toyota ME gave me their great third world winner diesel 4500 cc to try out. I took it out for a spin on route designed by me.

It kept my interest or just 15 minutes one spin and I never sat in it again obviously I was more interested in the 5700 cc V8 which was to come in Lexus 570 as well. KERR system on the new LC. On desert offroading scene diesels were nowhere and will be nowhere on mud climbs a well unless the flat torque curve is delivered.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by desertfox

For very serious offroading yes as of date diesels dont come ..................... climbs a well unless the flat torque curve is delivered.

Sorry old boy, but I'm afraid spouting acronyms re. Toyota & Nissan nomenclature & or giving personal memorabilia doesn't confer bragging rights about subjects we know little about.

As we have all seen, most of the contenders for international rallies (starting with the Paris-Dakar etc) all use vehicles bearing little or no resemblance to off-the-shelf products available to mere mortals like me !

It would be interesting tho' to speculate - a suitably modified XUV500 on the Paris-Dakar or any of the Scandinavian rallies !

[desertfox]

An XUV Vs. a BMW Extreme modified vehicle ? It will cut a very sorry figure at the Pris Dakar rally.

[Cloudmobile_deb]

Hero , hope you join you sumitro and other soon and start learning.

[Zappo]

Oho taai!!! Ok, that makes sense. So do you guys want this thread to have the latest name? or else, a generic name that fits all future OTRs as well so that stray johnnies like me don't scratch their heads?