[ex670c]

Originally Posted by gsferrari

Arka - will it help as well if I tag along for the recce runs? I can bring my CJ3B along if my Gypsy is not in Chennai by then. I am planning for May 1/2 recce.
I've done 1 OTR as a passenger and 1 as a driver (the recent Alibaug otr). I expect to have a few more in by the end of this month.

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Arka, i feel even newbies who know capability of their machines must be allowed. Remember the way Ironwolf drove during the Bangalore OTR? beautifully executed moves. Incidentally, this happened when experienced offroaders were finding things difficult. He knew what his vehicle could do and kept things simple and stupid. What do you say?

@ GS, TPC is in August so you have enough time and a lot of OTRs to get a hang of the basics and understand you vehicle.

You can definitely join us for any of the recce's.

@ Spike, Sandy Terrain is very deceptive, and a Newbie will find it hard to preserve his vehicle especially his clutch, and the 8-10 Special Stages (3-5 Obstacles) will take a toll on the rest.

Regards,

Arka

[fiery enzyme]

Originally Posted by fiery enzyme

Alright. Time to create a list.

For now we will focus on the recee.

1) Bala - Volunteer/Organizer
2) Vijay - Organizer?
3) Ram.West and group - Organizers
4) Vikram - Participant
5) Karthi - Organizer
5) Arka - Organizer
6) Deep - Organizer
7) Vinod - ?

Guys please keep adding to the list who will be joining us for the Recee.

I'm adding two more people to the list

1) Bala + 2 - Volunteer/Organizer
2) Vijay - Organizer?
3) Ram.West and group - Organizers
4) Vikram - Participant
5) Karthi - Organizer
5) Arka - Organizer
6) Deep - Organizer
7) Vinod - ?

[xtreme power]

Arka sir,
On a very serious non-argumentative note how fair is it, for competitors to take part in the recces, especially when you plan to have eight of them.

You will have the local jeepers who plan to take part as competitors with an unfair advantage of knowing the terrain very very well (considering 8 recces) and also having vast experience on that particular terrain.

Secondly it is not possible for us jeepers who stay away from Chennai to make it for even one recce, will be a costly and more importantly time consuming affair. I was planning to come for the palar challenge this year, I spoke to you about it, but if that means we outsiders have this negative advantage, does it really make sense to come all the way, knowing that most of my co-competitors have been through the track and know exactly where the sand is soft and where traction is a problem etc etc. Then it boils down to being a cheenai event for the cheenai guys, tried and tested by the local jepers, or those outsiders who have money and time to spare to make it for the recces, In my opinion, only volunteers should be allowed to be part of the recces (and u certainly have a lot of them) so that should not be a problem sir.

Just don’t want to come there with doubts in my mind knowing that lots of others have done the course, and if I come there I should know that if I perform well I have a chance to win but in this case it wll be that competitors attending the recces have the most chance of winning.

Just my two bits sir, hope you take it sportingly

regards,
Allan

[King413]

Hi Arka,
I second Allans thoughts on this bit. To keep the competitive spirit the recce and route a surprise to all participants, though locals will have an advantage knowing the terrain from past experience...

Prithvi

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by xtreme power

Arka sir,
On a very serious non-argumentative note
How fair is it, for competitors to take part in the recces, especially when you plan to have eight of them

You will have the local jeepers who plan to take part as competitors with an unfair advantage of knowing the terrain very very well (considering 8 recces) and also having vast experience on that particular terrain

Secondly it is not possible for us jeepers who stay away from Chennai to make it for even one recce, will be a costly and more importantly time consuming affair
I was planning to come for the palar challenge this year, I spoke to you about it, but if that means we outsiders have this negative advantage, does it really make sense to come all the way, knowing that most of my co-competitors have been through the track and know exactly where the sand is soft and where traction is a problem etc etc
Then it boils down to being a cheenai event for the cheenai guys, tried and tested by the local jepers, or those outsiders who have money and time to spare to make it for the recces,
In my opinion, only volunteers should be allowed to be part of the recces (and u certainly have a lot of them) so that should not be a problem sir,

Just don’t want to come there with doubts in my mind knowing that lots of others have done the course, and if I come there I should know that if I perform well I have a chance to win
but in this case it wll be that competitors attending the recces have the most chance of winning

Just my two bits sir, hope you take it sportingly

regards,
Allan

Allan Sir,

That is called the Home Ground Advantage, the same applies for the Rain Forest Challenge, where the local's sweep most of the Awards, or the Taprobana Challenge in Sri Lanka, or even the Raid de Himalaya (Extreme Category).

But still RFC is the most attended international 4x4 Competition event.

The above would hold true if I were to compete in a Mumbai/Kerala/Coorg/Bangalore OTR Competition. But I don't consider it an unfair advantage, I am an off-roader, I love it when the odds are absolutely against me.

Volunteers

wrt. To TPC, the recce's are mainly used to prepare the O-Team (organizers), the actual Special Stages are never revealed till the last moment for a few reasons.

i) To give every competing team a fair chance.

ii) the River Bed is actively quarried for Sand, the general layout can totally change in a few days, including rain.

Regarding the number of volunteers we don't have enough, Ideally were require 25 vehicles and 75 People, we manage with 9-11 vehicles and 20-30 People.

Last year 50% of the Special Stages were manned by a Single Person i.e 5 Obstacles (50-150mts spread)were manned, photographed and scored by one person, from 0800hrs to 1500hrs.

So we definitely need more volunteers.

Participants

The Recce definitely helps the Participants on the following accounts
1) Prepare the Vehicle
2) Improve Driving Skill
3) Build a team/improve team Work.

Since 2008, as Organizers we have observed, that the team with the best vehicles, or the best drivers or a combination of both does not win TPC.

It is the TEAM (Teamwork/co-ordination/Navigation/Spotting/Recovery) which wins the event.

What it Boils down to is, It is INDIA's Toughest Off-Road competition, and people who have never attended the event or don't have the guts to attend, always find a clause to exempt themselves. We see it every year.

If you want to compete in TPC10 you are most welcome, if you don't then you know what the Home Page says, HOME2010.

Please take it sportingly.

Regards,

Arka

PS -

[vinod_nookala]

Originally Posted by xtreme power

Arka sir,
On a very serious non-argumentative note
How fair is it, for competitors to take part in the recces, especially when you plan to have eight of them

You will have the local jeepers who plan to take part as competitors with an unfair advantage of knowing the terrain very very well (considering 8 recces) and also having vast experience on that particular terrain

Secondly it is not possible for us jeepers who stay away from Chennai to make it for even one recce, will be a costly and more importantly time consuming affair
I was planning to come for the palar challenge this year, I spoke to you about it, but if that means we outsiders have this negative advantage, does it really make sense to come all the way, knowing that most of my co-competitors have been through the track and know exactly where the sand is soft and where traction is a problem etc etc
Then it boils down to being a cheenai event for the cheenai guys, tried and tested by the local jepers, or those outsiders who have money and time to spare to make it for the recces,
In my opinion, only volunteers should be allowed to be part of the recces (and u certainly have a lot of them) so that should not be a problem sir,

Just don’t want to come there with doubts in my mind knowing that lots of others have done the course, and if I come there I should know that if I perform well I have a chance to win
but in this case it wll be that competitors attending the recces have the most chance of winning

Just my two bits sir, hope you take it sportingly

regards,
Allan

Hey Allan,
Very genuine doubts and i am glad you brought them out as many must have same thoughts. As Arka said we do recee a lot, but special stages that are actually going to be a part of the event is never revealed!! Even then we all go stupidly to attend most Reece's, just to gets hands on that terrain. You are right, local guys have advantage as they get to taste the terrain unlike guys who are far far away! But trust me if you get the feel of the terrain and know which ratios are best to play with you have it all!!

Sean Hameed (srilanka) and Bhaskar are not locals, but they performed admirably well and had one of the vehicle didn't break down they would have been the winner of Palar 2009 not we!! In 2008 Srinivasan with Armada DI was struggling big time. During start of the event that vehicle didn't even enter the river bed, was getting stuck at every drop of hat. But few hours later he got hang of it and Armada was at its best clearing all obstacles which MM540 cleared!!

Again it is not about where the sand is soft or hard, it all about playing with ratios..oops i let the secret out!!

Allan try this event, you will love it, winning or loosing is entirely immaterial!!

[xtreme power]

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

Hey Allan,


Sean Hameed (srilanka) and Bhaskar are not locals, but they performed admirably well and had one of the vehicle didn't break down they would have been the winner of Palar 2009 not we!!!!

exactly vinod,
the recces as stated by arka, do help the teams in preparing their vehicles better, somaybe if hameed and bhaskar had done a few recces they would have been winners

[quote=ex670c;1839393]Allan Sir,

That is called the Home Ground Advantage,

my point exactly,
.



The Recce definitely helps the Participants on the following accounts
1) Prepare the Vehicle
2) Improve Driving Skill
3) Build a team/improve team Work.


my point being here is that if you state your event being the toughest in india and if you want all india participation can you not keep the recceing for the organisers only

anyways the local jeepers know the terrain add to which they go along for the recces,

if i was going for a recce of an event organised here in mumbai , i would not participate in it, it would be unfair.

regards,
Allan

[Gypsy-Boy]

Originally Posted by xtreme power

exactly vinod,
the recces as stated by arka, do help the teams in preparing their vehicles better, somaybe if hameed and bhaskar had done a few recces they would have been winners

Allan Sir,

That is called the Home Ground Advantage,

my point exactly,
.



The Recce definitely helps the Participants on the following accounts
1) Prepare the Vehicle
2) Improve Driving Skill
3) Build a team/improve team Work.


my point being here is that if you state your event being the toughest in india and if you want all india participation can you not keep the recceing for the organisers only

anyways the local jeepers know the terrain add to which they go along for the recces,

if i was going for a recce of an event organised here in mumbai , i would not participate in it, it would be unfair.

regards,
Allan

Allan is right in pointing this out,
Allan you missed out that these recce's help the participants familiarise themselves with the terrain/route - they will learn (over the 8 recce's) which line to take to cross an obstacle.
First why are there 8 recce's? but more importantly, why are the recce's being advertised on the forum?
And why is there an open invitation for people to participate in these recce's?

The organisers should conduct the recce's within a closed group. And this group should not participate in the competition.

Volunteers should be taken on the route just prior to the actual competition.

Just my thoughts - this is not meant as a personal assault at anyone.

[vinod_nookala]

Originally Posted by xtreme power

exactly vinod,
the recces as stated by arka, do help the teams in preparing their vehicles better, somaybe if hameed and bhaskar had done a few recces they would have been winners

Allan

Allan,
Saying that If Hameed and Bhaskar were locals they would have won it is not fair! I would say that if they had third vehicle to complete their team they would have been the winner of team event as well. That's why team formation is also important.

Hameed was the winner of Most performing 4wd with MG413 2009. How could he do it not being a local? Bhaskar Kesavulu (banglore) MM540 1987 model individual timing to clear obstacles was better than mine and he was second. I secured 488 points and he was above 500. My team won me this event twice. Its not only your vehicle but your teams vehicle which bring you collective win!!

Its not only about preparedness of your vehicle but also your team mates vehicle. You must also have trust on your teams drivers, co drivers and the team work.

[xtreme power]

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

Allan,
Saying that If Hameed and Bhaskar were locals they would have won it is not fair! I would say that if they had third vehicle to complete their team they would have been the winner of team event as well. That's why team formation is also important.

Hameed was the winner of Most performing 4wd with MG413 2009. How could he do it not being a local? Bhaskar Kesavulu (banglore) MM540 1987 model individual timing to clear obstacles was better than mine and he was second. I secured 488 points and he was above 500. My team won me this event twice. Its not only your vehicle but your teams vehicle which bring you collective win!!

Its not only about preparedness of your vehicle but also your team mates vehicle. You must also have trust on your teams drivers, co drivers and the team work.

vinod,
i never knew about that,sorry on that,

the only point id like to make is that is it fair for the local participants to take part in eight recces,
they anyways have home soil advantage,
should the recces not be kept within the organisers

regards,
Allan

[vinod_nookala]

Originally Posted by Gypsy-Boy

Allan is right in pointing this out,
Allan you missed out that these recce's help the participants familiarise themselves with the terrain/route - they will learn (over the 8 recce's) which line to take to cross an obstacle.

Participants do not know the actual obstacle or the special stages. Participants go there for practice. So, we know how to drive on sand and can manage better, but DO NOT know the actual obstacle!! There are about 7 to 8 special stages in a day. So which line, what sand, what clay doesn't matter!

First why are there 8 recce's? but more importantly, why are the recce's being advertised on the forum?


Eight recees show the attention to detail that goes into the event. This is advertised on the forum to let know every one what exactly is happening out here in Chennai. At least appreciate the fact that you know who is doing what. How would you know if we dont put up anything on the forum and do all the obstacles here? I think putting up on the forum is the best transparency one can have!!


And why is there an open invitation for people to participate in these recce's?

Organizers as you know are volunteer's. They are mostly newbies. They need to understand how to mark an obstacle, how to gauge difficulty level and most important they got to reach till that obstacle!! So, they need to learn to drive off road first to reach the obstacle. We need volunteers that's why it is an open invitation. For participants it is for getting hands on experience.

The organisers should conduct the recce's within a closed group. And this group should not participate in the competition.

Since participants don't know the actual obstacle it doesn't matter. If you say they shouldn't be let even to practice, then how can you stop them from doing their individual runs? Every body is free to drive where ever.

Volunteers should be taken on the route just prior to the actual competition.

Crunch of manpower doesn't let you work that way!

My reply in bold

Originally Posted by xtreme power

vinod,
i never knew about that,sorry on that,

the only point id like to make is that is it fair for the local participants to take part in eight recces,
they anyways have home soil advantage,
should the recces not be kept within the organisers

regards,
Allan

Allan,
I may be off the mark, just correct me if i am wrong-" is it fair to say Mumbai Indians should not practice on home ground when they compete with others in Mumbai and Chennai super kings in Chennai just because they will have home ground advantage?

Take it this way, for example when i am participating in familiarization of terrain, opponents like you would know what i am doing to my vehicle. Video's and pictures would be out and you know what my vehicle is up to and what it is not!! You all can watch participants driving styles. Actually people here are letting their secrets out and giving advantage to others!! But on the other hand i have no clue which vehicle are you going to compete with, what is your hardware, software etc etc. You silently observe what we do here and come with a bombshell (i mean kick *** jeep/Gypsy) and we are taken by surprise!

Arka, home grown boys have a disadvantage now! So no pics and no Videos of the participants.

@ Fiery enzime - You asked about my participation na? Then fill in the blanks vinod= Chief guest TPC 2010

[NDMS]

The logic Xtreme is stating holds true and this would only help in increasing the level of already top notch competition TPC. Sarcasm is not the only way to respond, Arka take the queries like Spike faces yours.

Just kidding Arka don't shoot me.

Regards

Pranav

[xtreme power]

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

Allan,
I may be off the mark, just correct me if i am wrong-" is it fair to say Mumbai Indians should not practice on home ground when they compete with others in Mumbai and Chennai super kings in Chennai just because they will have home ground advantage?

baba,
Will the mumbai indians practise in their home grounds with the same ball they will play the actual match in and with the same umpires and the same sponsorous that would be there on the final days.

its fair for the local competitiors to go and practise on their own account and time,, thats what home town advantage is all about
but going along on the recees is just for the organisers ya, imho

[Gypsy-Boy]

Vinod
I have only mentioned the points as constructive criticism. If this gets into a "fight" then I am sorry I will not participate further.

I have seen rally's being organised and my points were brought up after that.
1) Recce's are done by the organisers.
2) Organisers do not participate.
3) Volunteers (or Marshalls in rally's) are not taken to recce's

The above are just a few points that I remember.

TPC is a world class event - no doubt.

A recce as I understand is meant to plot out the route. This means that the obstacles have to be crossed during the recce.
Please note that when you take people (read participants) along for the recce's YOU ARE TAKING THEM ON THE ROUTE!!!

And Vinod/TPC organisers I do not have the interest or the inclination to participate in any sarcasm fights. Please take this as constructive criticism.


Cheers
GB

[matchless]

Originally Posted by xtreme power

baba,
Will the mumbai indians practise in their home grounds with the same ball they will play the actual match in and with the same umpires and the same sponsorous that would be there on the final days.

its fair for the local competitiors to go and practise on their own account and time,, thats what home town advantage is all about
but going along on the recees is just for the organisers ya, imho

Hi Allan,

I have been organizer last year and it was more like a regular off-road drive and get together. We didn’t even do a single SS which was part of the challenge.

And till you try that SS we can never say it is easy or tough hope you will agree to this fact.

As an organizer I wanted to try all the SS but never had time because there where lot of SS and has to be covered with in a day, and when we went for an off-road drive in nov the terrain has changed due to the water flow.

Organizer or participant in a recce doesn’t make any difference.

About getting a feel of the terrain you can be here 2 or 1 days earlier and drive on the river bed.

Cheers,