[khan_sultan]

Friends, we have this TPC Report thread here. This year, as admitted by the organizers, there have been a huge number of mistakes which have left a not so pleasant experience on the whole thing.

I am starting this thread to get views from all concerned on what they would like better in next years TPC, so that it becomes more fair, transparent, enjoyable for all concerned.

We can give feedback/suggestions on any aspect: logistics, food, comfort, trail, rules, criteria.. etc etc.,

Also, while we give improvement suggestions, it's our duty as participants to also note & list the things we liked about TPC and would like those to continue.

After all it is our event. We the participants make it happen.

[ex670c]

Hi Shahnawaz,

Thank you for taking this initiative.

The O-Team surely needs to prepare a COMPETITORS HANDBOOK, with all the rules On & Off-Road, to make the competition transparent and easy to interpret.

Regards,

Arka

[svsantosh]

I can think of one thing.

Arka, What was mapped during the Recees'? Was it only the trail, vehicle specific technicalities, etc? Did the MARSHALS have a mock-up of their work/task of the 3 days of the actual TPC? If not, next year, may be even later this year, you can organize a complete mock up, with flags, rules, scoring systems et all - and also have a mockup winner list. I am sure a team or two will point out defects of the Marshals. it is just like having a full-fledged practice session on thurs/frid of a F1 Race. Even the marshalls can be judged and hand picked.

Thinking of it - why not have certified 'marshals' at such events? After all, JT is one of the founders of this off-roading sport in India - Why not have a panel of marshals for such competetive events?

[khan_sultan]

List of things I liked this year and would like the O-Team to continue in next years TPC:

• Superb trail. Make it even more tougher.
• Camp Stay Site/Location: Is good to have such accommodation near to the trail
• Good clean stay facilities with nice rest rooms, clean toilets
• Good quality light food. (less chances of falling sick)
• Good amount of ORS Juices supplied
• Mechanical/Service support was good (not that we used it, but can say based on observations)
• Friendly/happy & smiling marshals (Bala, Venkat, Guru, Arka are immediate ones who come to mind)
• Staggered start by dividing into 2 groups

Will add more here itself as I recollect..

[Jaggu]

Agree to all Khan posted above.

Things i would suggest to improve:

Point Rules

- Publish it well in advance, and give detail briefing at camp.

- Same should be shared with Marshals, maybe couple of dry runs for them to understand during the recce's.

- Once published cannot be amended, unless it is affecting the safety aspect.

- Criteria of evaluation for different competitions (individual or team) also should be shared in a similar way.

- Points card copy to be with participants.

- Remember to synchronize your watches marshals, and ideally give them handheld stop watches with multiple timer function. Worth the onetime investment.

- Points standing published before the start of the second day. This can be used even to decide the order.

Stages

- Should be recce'ed and based on this planning has to be done for the overall day. Keeping in mind the number of participants. If required limit the numbers based on first come first basis. One can cut the transport sectors to include more SS and still save time.

- Total time once announced has to be sticked to, ie if 6 hours then once the teams report, there clock starts and if they exceed the time, points will not be awarded. Though they can continue with driving if they wish to without fetching points.

- If a team doesn't start on time, still there clock starts. Its upto them how they are going to catch up.

- Even if one vehicle breaks down, repair has to be done at the track. If vehicle gets external help, remaining vehicles have to continue and the broken down vehicle can join at the stage where the others are, once repaired. OR the clock will run till the vehicle returns to start the stage along with the team.

- Max time for each SS adhered to (recce will come in handy here), or double negatives for each minute. If they are stuck, provide recovery team and dont waste time or allow pile ups at that stage.

- Simple route map (hand drawn is also fine) to be shared with teams, comes in handy.

These are some of the points which came to mind while debating in the report thread.

One from my personal side, try 8-9 am starts, especially for common joe's like me, who love to participate but would like to have some relaxation when we take such breaks, from otherwise hectic schedules at work. As i said cut down on time wastage inside the event. Let people enjoy participating instead of making it more of a punishment

Oh i remember, if you are serious about spoons and stuff, please put a note while distributing on do's and don'ts (just like what we saw in camp tables) and please allocate one person at the gate itself (while returning) so that we can return the stuff at entry itself. IIRC we took the trash bag and dumped it ourselves at the camp site on day 1 and 2.

[khan_sultan]

• Interpretation of the rules should be consistent by all the marshals. The rules should be FOR THE EVENT and not per stage/marshal based. For example: some marshals were allowing the front 2 wheels to pass the blue/start flags to count it as an attempt and some insisted for rear to pass through for to be counted as an attempt

• No forward winching/pulling/towing ANYWHERE in the SS. There were loop holes wherein participants were debating that this pull is after they have crossed the obstacle and are on their way to next obstacle in the SS. Make it simple -- anywhere in SS, if you do a forward recovery, go back and do the last obstacle (climb) that you had done again.

• Have absolute clarity on what constitutes an 'attempt'. Is lining up the vehicle for the climb an attempt (and that can include going forward/reverse to setup the perfect line.)

• Some marshals allowed to do obstacles in any order you want. Some insisted that you start AND GO THROUGH the 1st.

• Have carbon copy of the score sheets and that should be handed over to the participants after the SS.

• Ask Major Roy to make it a pleasurable experience for participants. Accounting for silly spoons at the end of the day ruins the experience.

• If you make rules, enforce them. Doesn't matter if only 2 teams remain in contention and other 10 are out.

• Distribute the rule book/handbook etc to participants before the start

[khan_sultan]

Trail/Stages:
-------------
Though we know it can be beyond the control of the O-Team, still there were SS's where the order of teams made the difference. Though we could argue that in overall scheme of things it can even out but still we should look at ways to design the TPC in a way that order of teams has "minimal impact" on how they do it.

Let me give you an example: At day 1, our #SS4 (manned by Mahendran), the obstacle climb#3 was no way possible by a stock gypsy. NO WAY. I took some > 5 tries and then made it. After that i was told that the Defender & allan's team just blew the trail apart making it like a highway. Just look at the score sheet & you would know. Ditto for day 2, Obstacle1, in SS3 manned by Guru.

Bottom line: Can we try to have a as much level playing field in terms of terrain as possible for all the teams.

Individual Event:
------------------
Though we didn't have the "individual stage" event, I think judging the best driver solely based on 1 SS timing may not be the best approach (I am assuming that's how it would have happened). It's like saying a T20 batsman is the best whereas TPC is actually like a test match.

We should think of some other format to decide the best individual driver/most performing 4WD

Maybe, a combination of obstacles done & attempts (across of all TPC) + Individual SS, in different weighted average could be one approach.

[Jaggu]

Best driver in my book = max number of obstacles covered with fastest timings and minimal number of tries. K.I.S.S keep it simple stupid!

OT: I think TPC would be a better event if competition is removed lol but then who will brave the heat without competition.

You know what??!! Make TPC a night event, that would be awesome!! getting lost, falling off trails etc super duper stuff which will make one shiver in ones pants!

[fiery enzyme]

FOr the individual event, ideally there would be one SS where all the drivers will compete against each other for the best timing. This would be at the end of the day.

Unfortunately this year we did not have time. Hence we had to arbitrarily decide.

Jaggu,

Night driving in Palar I think would be dangerous. There is no fixed trail. Also there is active illegal night quarrying etc.

Would it be exciting. Hell yeah. I have done it.

[gsferrari]

I don't see how nosing into an obstacle constitutes an attempt. If you want the 3 points you have to work for it! This is why, at least on my SS, I made it very clear to ALL that for it to be an attempt, the rear fender of the vehicle HAS to cross the line of the flags. In the first obstacle this ensured that the vehicle would have to enter the water in order to accomplish this. For some this resulted in a recovery situation, for others they managed to cross the obstacle successfully. Those who did not adhere to this were given a DNS.

One more thing I would like to point out is that people were getting stuck in the first obstacle on Day-2 SS3 even after several teams had been through. The task became easier after the tire trails allowed the later participants to gauge the best line into and out of the obstacle. I also observed that unlike Allan and some of the early teams who adopted the "use momentum" approach to cross the obstacle, the later teams slowly entered and exited the obstacle.

The Kerala team were especially good because they got stuck but used some amazing driving to get their vehicles out of the slush. A bit of back and forth and other traction building maneuvers. I must say that CJ3Bs had an easier time here than the 540/550 and Gypsy. Spidey is no longer a Gypsy

Night driving on the Palar river bed is impossible. You lose sight of the vehicle ahead of you so easily it can freak you out. Couple this with bad weather and it becomes dangerous. The locals also may not take too kindly to any nightly visitations from 4 wheeled "phorens". The climate is an integral part of the event...it is the closest we can get to desert like driving conditions without actually traveling to Rajasthan.

I think it is erroneous to say that "Huge number of mistakes have been made" because this is not the case. The organizers took a call to eliminate 3 special stages due to a goof-up. As a result of this some teams benefited and others suffered...which is pleasant to some and unpleasant to others. This is how things are and how things go. I doubt the format will change massively in the years to come. Yes it has to be fine tuned to work when so many teams and SSs are involved...TPC has never witnessed this level of participation and it HAS taken it's toll on the system. The organizers are well aware of the drawbacks and are taking steps to sort it out for next year. In 2010 we did what we always do...it just didn't work.

On the subject of Marshals...we need volunteers! Nobody volunteered this year...it isn't like we were turning away people from becoming Marshals. Now that we struggled to get 10 Marshals together all of a sudden people have advice on how a Marshal should do his job. Please volunteer next year and put your words into action. All of us have careers and families and this is as much as we can do to give you an event to participate in. It has taken a LOT out of us...I have spent 30K+ just for the honor of standing out there in the sun so you lot have some fun. Don't you dare take pot-shots at us because we will just not have it. We barely have enough volunteers...talking about certified marshals is a far away dream.

Major Roy has to be on-top of the status of his assets. Flags, water bottles, ice-boxes, spoons etc. all cost money. There is no reason why these things, which can be used again, are not treated with responsibility. We realize that it is painful for some of you to keep track of other people's belongings so next year you will be getting plastic spoons. Decision on whether or not to provide the other stuff lies with Major Roy.

Agree on the forward winching point. On SS5 Day-1 Vikram was stuck after climb-2 and was winched out forward. I suggested they do the obstacle again and they argued that it was not necessary as they had passed the climb already. I was in a bit of doubt here but I let it stand but moving forward, forward recovery will not be allowed. If it is done for safety reasons then the participant has to retry the obstacle or forfeit (DNF) and move on. I am sure Arka will clarify this in the rule-book for 2011.

Carbon Copy of score sheets is impossible to maintain. We have enough trouble maintaining the score-sheets as they stand because multiple teams show up in random sequence and we have to ensure that their data is correctly entered. During all this I would find it very difficult to make sure the copy is clear, tear it out and hand it over. This is why we make you sign the score-sheets...that some of you do NOT take this seriously and scribble a signature is not my problem. Some teams also kept notes of their scores in a little notebook...perhaps other teams can follow this procedure as well.

Regarding O-team doing a recce on the day of the event - this is impossible for time reasons. Each stage has only 1 vehicle and we are dropped off at our SS location just under 1 hour before the participants start lining up. If I am to attempt my own SS in this time and get stuck, the nearest vehicle to recover me will be between 1.5Km and 3Km away and the O will be busy setting up his own SS. This is not an ideal situation. The SS venues are selected ON the morning of the event by the senior organizers and we just see what is fun and challenging and set it up for the participants.

I am not willing to put my own vehicle through the slush etc. because I simply have nothing to gain from it. I am here to organize the event and drive back home afterward...you are here to compete and, if possible, win. The obstacles we setup were all used earlier at some point of time or the other and they HAVE been covered in numerous recces. The O-Team does walk the obstacles and gauge depth and using experience decides if the obstacle should be given or not.

If you remember my SS3/Day-2 the entry into the slush point was from the side...Why? because I had earlier checked the depth of the slush along the length and decided that any other route would have been impossible because of the depth. Also there was a large and gnarly tree stump in the middle. So the "Jujube" slush to some of you was setup to prevent any unnecessary and catastrophic damage to your vehicles.


One suggestion I have for the O-Team next year is to start both teams in the same direction. Let the Red team start from SS-1 and the Blue team from SS-5. This way both teams are moving in the same direction and this will avoid pile-ups in the middle SSs. On both days SS5/Day-1 and SS3/Day-2 had massive pile-ups. Day-2 wasn't so bad but Day-1 was horrible for me and Raj to manage. At one point I had more than 6 teams piled up in the holding area (mix of red and blue).

If we start in this fashion then you will have a much smoother flow through the day. The Blue team can exit out after SS-10 and be led back to SS-1 by one of the organizer of SS-1. This organizer can arrive at SS-10 after the last Red team passes out of his SS. Now he is free and will have time to go to SS-10 to collect the blue teams.

[rhandle]

Whoa Guru! Nice points. But then whoever becomes Marshall wants to become one and not doing anything special for the team participating. They are also there for their fun and sense of fulfillment.

Being the responsible position it is, there would be always -ves coming your way. Take it in to your stride.

I have flown down to Mumbai thrice and along with Mohan did up Swarasai trail, Examm trail and the one in Alibagh. What did I gain from there - my self satisfaction but above all lots of friends. I guess friends were my Reward which I cherish.

It might have hurt you but take the feedback in positive way and I am sure next time you,Arka, and complete Organising team will take this TPC to whole new level, since you know now what are the things to improve upon.

Lets all learn!

[khan_sultan]

Originally Posted by gsferrari

I don't see how nosing into an obstacle constitutes an attempt. If you want the 3 points you have to work for it! ....

Gs, it's about having the same interpretation of rules by all the marshals at all stages. Whatever be it -- either way is fine. In our SS-8 of Day 2, Major roy mentioned to us that just touching the water will constitute an attempt.

I think it is erroneous to say that "Huge number of mistakes have been made" because this is not the case. The organizers took a call to eliminate 3 special stages due to a goof-up. As a result of this some teams benefited and others suffered...which is pleasant to some and unpleasant to others. This is how things are and how things go.

Boss, there are mistakes and goof-ups galore. Just read the posts in event report thread to see how many have been pointed out/admitted.

Let me points some here itself:

- No coordination between marshals (that led to some teams being stopped some being allowed)
- Then removing 3 stages from calculations
- Goof up in not giving sireesh the 3rd overall individual winner
- Rules being informed and not being applied. Why was the 6 hour driving rule told when it is not applied
- O-Teams own admission here that they bypassed certain rules to ensure more teams stay in competition. WHY??? How can you alter the nature of competition midway? If only 3 teams out of 12 deserve to remain in competition then so be it...!!!
- Day 1, SS1: Major Roy asks team red2 to start as it is their turn now. They say they are not ready for whatever reason (breakdown or vehicle not turned up..). So should not have the clocked started for them as per the briefing given by Roy himself that morning?

.. On the subject of Marshals...we need volunteers! Nobody volunteered this year...

That's for the Organizers to handle. We as competitors can't be expected to provide marshals also. In that case, the O-Team should plan accordingly and not have more SS's just for the sake of it if they can't handle.

Now that we struggled to get 10 Marshals together all of a sudden people have advice on how a Marshal should do his job.

We are just saying that all marshals need to be on the same page w.r.t interpretation of the rules. Is that asking for toooooooooo much??

Please volunteer next year and put your words into action. All of us have careers and families and this is as much as we can do to give you an event to participate in. It has taken a LOT out of us...I have spent 30K+ just for the honor of standing out there in the sun so you lot have some fun. Don't you dare take pot-shots at us because we will just not have it.

Competitors also have careers/families and have spent enormous amount of money in preparing their vehicles. Obviously they will be pissed off when they see strange things happening in the results.

Those who want to become marshal it's their call. You volunteered to be a marshal, so be happy with it. Take it easy buddy. Nobody is taking pot-shots at any one. If there is something that is not right, we will point it out. The fact is that O-Team has arbitrarily applied their own interpretation of rules to suit certain teams. And this would have gone unnoticed had we not pointed it out.

At the same time, do take note of the good things that have been highlighted. So take a balanced view buddy.

... Major Roy has to be on-top of the status of his assets. Flags, water bottles, ice-boxes, spoons etc. all cost money.

It's about the "service & experience". For most of the participants dealing with roy & his staff was not a pleasant experience -- THAT'S A FACT. His facilities are TOP Class but the attitude is pathetic.

.. Carbon Copy of score sheets is impossible to maintain. We have enough trouble maintaining the score-sheets..

This is just a suggestion/idea that can be built upon. No need to be rigid & inflexible. The need is for the competitors to keep a 'certified' score sheet with them all the time. We can think of ways to make it happen..

[xtreme power]

LET ME BEGIN BY SAYING THAT MAYBE NEXT YEAR THE TPC O-TEAM CAN HAVE A POLICY OF NOT BEING PARTIAL TO OTHER TEAMS
REALLY YOU'LL NED TO EXERCISE THIS ATTITUDE

regarding major roy, my mumbai team after its performance on day1 dealt with alot of negative vibes and rude comments from roy,
we as a team started avoiding him just cause it seemed he felt threatened by us
he seemed jealous
and his attitude stinks
and now even more cause of all his rules and stuff which absolute have no value
this is a competition and what are rules for if they are not to be followed

the coordination between the o-team was not visible at all,
all had different takes on attempts and hitting flags and touching flags and even on recovery

gs, no one forced you to become a volunteer just as no one forced me to enter tpc, we did it out of sheer fun and towards the sport
you dont not want to know about the money that has gone in from my side getting all my cars and staff there, youll faint
and when such preparation and money and time and focus is shattered cause of the huge mistakes and major goof ups on the o-teams part, it leaves us with no other option but to critize you'l

the very fact that team red2 and Red4 have not been penalised and the fact that red4 is placed at second position and not 8th as it should be, shows a major goof up sir,

[Jaggu]

Here goes my morning!

Originally Posted by gsferrari

I don't see how nosing into an obstacle constitutes an attempt.
=======
Those who did not adhere to this were given a DNS.

You did the right thing, atleast in my perception.

Originally Posted by gsferrari

One more thing I would like to point out is that people were getting stuck in the first obstacle on Day-2 SS3 even after several teams had been through. The task became easier after the tire trails allowed the later participants to gauge the best line into and out of the obstacle. I also observed that unlike Allan and some of the early teams who adopted the "use momentum" approach to cross the obstacle, the later teams slowly entered and exited the obstacle.

Yes after few attempts many obstacles become easy for others to conquer.

Originally Posted by gsferrari

The Kerala team were especially good because they got stuck but used some amazing driving to get their vehicles out of the slush. A bit of back and forth and other traction building maneuvers. I must say that CJ3Bs had an easier time here than the 540/550 and Gypsy. Spidey is no longer a Gypsy

Am sure they would have been stuck in the first half of the slush?

Originally Posted by gsferrari

Night driving on the Palar river bed is impossible. You lose sight of the vehicle ahead of you so easily it can freak you out. Couple this with bad weather and it becomes dangerous. The locals also may not take too kindly to any nightly visitations from 4 wheeled "phorens". The climate is an integral part of the event...it is the closest we can get to desert like driving conditions without actually traveling to Rajasthan.

Freaking out is the fun part and don't tell me weather is what attracts the competitors, pleasant weather would mean more participation.

Originally Posted by gsferrari

I think it is erroneous to say that "Huge number of mistakes have been made" because this is not the case. The organizers took a call to eliminate 3 special stages due to a goof-up. As a result of this some teams benefited and others suffered...which is pleasant to some and unpleasant to others. This is how things are and how things go. I doubt the format will change massively in the years to come.

Excuse me, unless you are a professional in this job, please refrain from making comments like "this is how thing would be"!! And format needn't be changed but it has to be fair, or don't expect participation to be like this year. We have learnt our lessons and we better see changes if anybody expects us! We are not mad to drive 100's of kms to watch such fiasco's especially if its promoted as a competitive event.

Originally Posted by gsferrari

On the subject of Marshals...we need volunteers! Nobody volunteered this year...it isn't like we were turning away people from becoming Marshals. Now that we struggled to get 10 Marshals together all of a sudden people have advice on how a Marshal should do his job. Please volunteer next year and put your words into action. All of us have careers and families and this is as much as we can do to give you an event to participate in. It has taken a LOT out of us...I have spent 30K+ just for the honor of standing out there in the sun so you lot have some fun. Don't you dare take pot-shots at us because we will just not have it. We barely have enough volunteers...talking about certified marshals is a far away dream.

Even participants went through the same issues of managing work, family and money and if you volunteered for it that's your problem. Its a different matter altogether why you guys were asked to pay, i think that was really unfair. I don't mind paying an extra 500 if that will take care of marshals expense.

Originally Posted by gsferrari

Major Roy has to be on-top of the status of his assets. Flags, water bottles, ice-boxes, spoons etc. all cost money. There is no reason why these things, which can be used again, are not treated with responsibility. We realize that it is painful for some of you to keep track of other people's belongings so next year you will be getting plastic spoons. Decision on whether or not to provide the other stuff lies with Major Roy.

I agree and thats why i gave suggestion to do it in a more organized manner.

Originally Posted by gsferrari

Agree on the forward winching point. On SS5 Day-1 Vikram was stuck after climb-2 and was winched out forward. I suggested they do the obstacle again and they argued that it was not necessary as they had passed the climb already. I was in a bit of doubt here but I let it stand but moving forward, forward recovery will not be allowed. If it is done for safety reasons then the participant has to retry the obstacle or forfeit (DNF) and move on. I am sure Arka will clarify this in the rule-book for 2011.

I have picture of another violete gypsy doing the same. Yes if its a rule, it has to be followed.

Originally Posted by gsferrari

Carbon Copy of score sheets is impossible to maintain. We have enough trouble maintaining the score-sheets as they stand because multiple teams show up in random sequence and we have to ensure that their data is correctly entered. During all this I would find it very difficult to make sure the copy is clear, tear it out and hand it over. This is why we make you sign the score-sheets...that some of you do NOT take this seriously and scribble a signature is not my problem. Some teams also kept notes of their scores in a little notebook...perhaps other teams can follow this procedure as well.

Dude there are better ways to do it, trust me. If you dont know how to, ask others and they will tell you how to manage.

Originally Posted by gsferrari

Regarding O-team doing a recce on the day of the event - this is impossible for time reasons. Each stage has only 1 vehicle and we are dropped off at our SS location just under 1 hour before the participants start lining up. If I am to attempt my own SS in this time and get stuck, the nearest vehicle to recover me will be between 1.5Km and 3Km away and the O will be busy setting up his own SS. This is not an ideal situation. The SS venues are selected ON the morning of the event by the senior organizers and we just see what is fun and challenging and set it up for the participants.

This has to change/managed better or else you will lose time during the event and some poor bakra would pay up dearly. Think for a min you are on the other side and your brand new gypsy engine is buggered up. Then you will understand the pain. If it was any other team other than Allens, water in diesel tank would have resulted in that vehicle getting out of the competition. Do you agree or not?

Originally Posted by gsferrari

I am not willing to put my own vehicle through the slush etc. because I simply have nothing to gain from it. I am here to organize the event and drive back home afterward...you are here to compete and, if possible, win. The obstacles we setup were all used earlier at some point of time or the other and they HAVE been covered in numerous recces. The O-Team does walk the obstacles and gauge depth and using experience decides if the obstacle should be given or not.

I seriously suggest you to stick to point scoring then, let other people who have vehicles and expertise to do the recce and then you take over the marsheling. As i said till your backyard is on fire, you will not understand the need for fire extinguishers.

Originally Posted by gsferrari

If you remember my SS3/Day-2 the entry into the slush point was from the side...Why? because I had earlier checked the depth of the slush along the length and decided that any other route would have been impossible because of the depth. Also there was a large and gnarly tree stump in the middle. So the "Jujube" slush to some of you was setup to prevent any unnecessary and catastrophic damage to your vehicles.

Very good decision, thats how it has to be. No point in putting others to risk, if you are not sure.

Originally Posted by gsferrari

One suggestion I have for the O-Team next year is to start both teams in the same direction. Let the Red team start from SS-1 and the Blue team from SS-5. This way both teams are moving in the same direction and this will avoid pile-ups in the middle SSs. On both days SS5/Day-1 and SS3/Day-2 had massive pile-ups. Day-2 wasn't so bad but Day-1 was horrible for me and Raj to manage. At one point I had more than 6 teams piled up in the holding area (mix of red and blue).

Guru there is loads to be discussed and planned, first thing as you said is number of marshals. So once we approach this challenge with open mind, we will find solutions also. FYI Day 2 also had massive pile ups, Red 3 waited for 2 hours patiently at Arka's stage to help clear this mess.

To conclude please don't get all defensive, we were trying to give suggestions thats all. If you are trying to justify others mistake, i atleast will not hesitate to reply.

[xtreme power]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

This has to change/managed better or else you will lose time during the event and some poor bakra would pay up dearly. Think for a min you are on the other side and your brand new gypsy engine is buggered up. Then you will understand the pain. If it was any other team other than Allens, water in diesel tank would have resulted in that vehicle getting out of the competition. Do you agree or not?

.

and u know why my vehicle never completed that obstacle cause of all the moss and green plants and whatever stuff was in that pit, that endeed up winding itself all over front axle and knuckle side and restricted my forward movement to zero
if a decent recce was done prior, and the pit cleared, i would hace completed that stage and in contention for best individual driver