Thar CRDe: Switch to Manual Locking Hubs

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by PreethamB

I was under the impression that they replaced the auto-locking hubs with fixed flange ones around September 2013. Did they switch back to auto-locking hubs recently?

A noob question, how does one find out whether the hubs are auto-locking ones or fixed flange ones? Are there any visual differences?

Yes, the auto locking hub is a black thingy protruding out

[akshay4587]

Originally Posted by PreethamB

I was under the impression that they replaced the auto-locking hubs with fixed flange ones around September 2013. Did they switch back to auto-locking hubs recently?

A noob question, how does one find out whether the hubs are auto-locking ones or fixed flange ones? Are there any visual differences?

Yes they went back to Auto locking hubs as early as Jan 2014.
I am the unlucky one;but have not really faced any problems.
Yes they are visually different.

[PreethamB]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Yes, the auto locking hub is a black thingy protruding out
Attachment 1282732

Thank you!

So auto-locking hubs are what I have on my Thar bought in May 2014. Any thoughts on why Mahindra decided to switch back to auto-locking hubs in such a short period of time? This after they claimed that the change to fixed flange type hubs was part of their improvement program based on customer feedback!

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by akshay4587

Yes they went back to Auto locking hubs as early as Jan 2014.
I am the unlucky one;but have not really faced any problems.

Akshay, can you post a closeup pic of the fixed flange you have got? Ask them if they could change it for you. I know it costs a kidney, but is no big deal.

Spike

[akshay4587]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Akshay, can you post a closeup pic of the fixed flange you have got? Ask them if they could change it for you. I know it costs a kidney, but is no big deal.

Spike

I will do that Spikey.
Yeah it costs around 40K.
Let me see if i can push them for a replacement.

[dhanushs]

@pillaian, a free wheeling hubs always helps. You get the give the whole power train to the front a rest, resulting in a much smoother and efficient ride.

However, the auto lockers can be swapped with Manual Locking Hubs, to make it more reliable.

[pillaian]

Originally Posted by akshay4587

The new one's are coming with Auto locking hubs.
I have one with fixed flanges;manufactured in Nov 2013.

Thank you akshay4587 - thanks for clarifying the doubt, I am glad Mahindra has gone back to Auto Hubs, as requested by another Bhpian, please post picture of the fixed flange so that we know how it looks.

Originally Posted by dhanushs

@pillaian, a free wheeling hubs always helps. You get the give the whole power train to the front a rest, resulting in a much smoother and efficient ride.

However, the auto lockers can be swapped with Manual Locking Hubs, to make it more reliable.

Thank you Dhanushs, for your inputs. Appreciate it

[Bump-Stop]

A few pros and cons of having FWHs on your vehicles:

Begging to differ and detailing the cons first

1.With FWHs disengaged, the front wheels don't transmit back motion through the front diff and shaft. Remember that regular movement and lubrication of the front diff and axle is possible only if it is moving . Infact in some axle designs, the top swivel bearing will receive no lubrication, as it relies on axle movement for this. So ,on vehicles which don't engage them on a regular basis (is mainly driven in 2wd), there have been jamming issues along the front drive train.

2. Have known to be easily sheared off or damaged by rocks etc hitting them when off roading.

3.Need regular cleaning and maintenance like any other component ( springs, packings etc.). Just another part to worry about!

4. Requires careful supervision and knowledge on part of the user.Try engaging 4wd and forget to lock either one (or even both) FWHs before you descend or ascend that steep hill, and I can assure you the result may be quite spectacular.This is of course more relevant for manual ones.

5. As FWHs have no security, can be prone to innocent (or malicious) tampering

6. Manual FWHs would always neccesitate the need to disembark from your Jeep in order to engage or disengage them. Not nice for a guy who only thinks about slotting the vehicle into 4wd only AFTER its stuck in 2 feet of slush!

7. Also quite a few auto FWHs require the vehicle move some distance (either forward or to back up at least by one wheel turn for them to engage. This may not be possible under all circumstances (is front wheels already stuck in slush).

8. In fact some models of auto hubs don't fully disengage forward drive, even when unlocked, which means wear and tear, and fuel economy are not that much improved.

Now the pros ( which most people already know)know. However no empirical evidence to prove some of below are actually true:

1. Better fuel efficiency
2. Less wear and tear on front diff / drivetrains.
3. Better handling on road
4. Less vibration (if any)

So weigh the pros and cons and choose wisely.

[amolpol]

The issue with the auto locking hubs was with the failure to disengage at times when switching back from 4wd to 2wd mode. The ideal way to disengage is to reverse for atleast 10-15 meters after you switch over to 2wd so that the hubs unlock. There should be a "click" sound that should be heard, but in most cases it's never happened (at least for me) although I make sure that the hubs are unlocked by observing the behavior of the vehicle while taking turns coupled with the steering feedback. If unsure, I repeat the process once or twice just to be on the safer side. It's not an ideal robust setup, but with the Thar, nothing really is.

Mahindra touted the fixed flange setup as an improvement over the auto lock hubs and implemented it in 2013, only to realize that the constant rotation of the front drive shafts was causing them more trouble than the auto hubs. I've heard stories of noise from the front drive shafts and also performance drop in terms of speeds on the highway because of the fixed flange setup.

Anyway, now that you have your answer on the front hubs, it should make your buying decision easier

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by amolpol

The issue with the auto locking hubs was with the failure to disengage at times when switching back from 4wd to 2wd mode... ...the constant rotation of the front drive shafts was causing them more trouble than the auto hubs. I've heard stories of noise from the front drive shafts and also performance drop in terms of speeds on the highway because of the fixed flange setup.

As mentioned above, sometimes takes some rotation before ENGAGING, also - this was the specific complaint that an owner/operator/mechanic with a Scorpio slx CRDe 4wd taxi mentioned to me. Think I've experienced this personally at some point in foggy history - they engage erratically / abruptly, often causing wheelspin or harsh jerking that really doesn't help you get grip or keep control when you need it. This guy lives in Koti (last village before Rohtang) and was doing snow duty all the time, and hated the auto-hubs. He retrofitted it with the manual locking units and thinks they're great. About half the Camper 4x4's up here around Manali are running them, too, with no complaints.

If you're doing light off-road and do highway service, I'd recommend the manual locking hubs (Lambda). For non-highway driven vehicles, the fixed flanges are probably fine. In highway use, vibrations are likely to crop up as a function of vehicle aging. You're got four cross joints, one splined slip joint, spindle bushings, and several bearings all in motion all the time with the fixed hubs, and if any one of them has wear, you're likely to feel it.

I've got the Lambda's on the Marshal and can't see any downside for our use - though if you're doing tight trails, their couple inches of extra protrusion can be an issue with hitting rocks, etc. With our wide NGCS axle being wide already, I've hit stuff from time to time, but so far not damaged them.

-Eric

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Dear all - my reply is as follows:

1. For rock solid reliability and total peace of mind during off-roading, fixed flange is the best.
2. Fixed flange was used in production only to save cost.
3. Exactly same fixed flange is used in a competitor vehicle because the axle is the same and it can be purchased if you know the source. Fasteners length is different, 10.9 grade coated fasteners must be used to prevent torque loss.
4. For guys who use 4WD sparingly, auto locking hub is good enough.
5. Manual locking hubs are not engineered for this axle application, so cannot comment.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[navpreet318]

Originally Posted by akshay4587

I will do that Spikey.
Yeah it costs around 40K.
Let me see if i can push them for a replacement.

WOW!! 40K for a set of Auto Locking Hubs! Now I know how they mint money and build empires. Haha.

Tata has a vehicle with fixed flanges and the fixed flanges can be bought from them. Don't know how much they'll charge though.

The cost of the fixed flanges was around Rs.200 for OEMs last time I checked and auto locking hubs was under 10k.

WOW! 40K!

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear all - my reply is as follows:

1. For rock solid reliability and total peace of mind during off-roading, fixed flange is the best.
2. Fixed flange was used in production only to save cost.
3. Exactly same fixed flange is used in a competitor vehicle because the axle is the same and it can be purchased if you know the source. Fasteners length is different, 10.9 grade coated fasteners must be used to prevent torque loss.
4. For guys who use 4WD sparingly, auto locking hub is good enough.
5. Manual locking hubs are not engineered for this axle application, so cannot comment.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

What was the reason that some fixed flange equipped vehicles had excessive vibrations over 100kmph? Thar sold for some time with fixed flange, but after these complaints, now it again has auto locking hubs, and owners who complained about vibrations were given the auto locking hubs under warranty

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

What was the reason that some fixed flange equipped vehicles had excessive vibrations over 100kmph? Thar sold for some time with fixed flange, but after these complaints, now it again has auto locking hubs, and owners who complained about vibrations were given the auto locking hubs under warranty

Dear Tanveer - there is a very robust 7D process to conduct systematic root cause analysis. This needs to be followed to get the correct answer. This is nothing new, we do it every day. The result is "Customer Delight" in the field out there! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Tanveer - there is a very robust 7D process to conduct systematic root cause analysis. This needs to be followed to get the correct answer. This is nothing new, we do it every day. The result is "Customer Delight" in the field out there! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

So due to the systematic 7D root cause analysis process it was discovered that the fixed flange was causing excessive vibrations. Does it mean fixed flange is inferior to auto locking hubs?