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Old 31st August 2019, 22:53   #121
KMT
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Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

I have done EGR blanking for three CRDe engines.

Just as a heads up to everyone trying this mod, the oil seperator has conked within 5000kms of doing this each time.
As a result it begins to ooze oil into the air cleaner intake, which fills up in the intercooler.
My hunch is that the crankcase pressure increases as the Turbo gets more exhaust gas and thus provides more psi inlet pressure which the seperator cannot handle.

I have disconnected the oil seperator breather from the air cleaner intake, blocked the small oil seperator inlet into air cleaner and then added a long pipe from the oil seperator breather to drip out any excess oil (like old crankcase breather pipes).

Last edited by KMT : 31st August 2019 at 22:56.
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Old 7th September 2019, 10:47   #122
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Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Just see this video @ 6:00, these guys have fitted Scorpio SZ CRDE "Torque Monster" in the Thar



Mahindra should have this from the first day of the launch. Putting an oversquare short stroke engine in an offroad vehicle with dead cow like low end grunt, Bean counters surely at work.

Last edited by The King : 7th September 2019 at 10:48.
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Old 7th September 2019, 13:47   #123
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Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by The King View Post
Just see this video @ 6:00, these guys have fitted Scorpio SZ CRDE "Torque Monster" in the Thar



Mahindra should have this from the first day of the launch. Putting an oversquare short stroke engine in an offroad vehicle with dead cow like low end grunt, Bean counters surely at work.
Stock this old Scorpio motor is rated at 116 BHP. Not much of a gain over the existing 105 bhp OEM Thar motor. And there are easy ways of modding the existing Thar motor discussed above in this thread.

My guess is that my 2018 slightly tweaked OEM Thar will blow the doors off Khan's Scorpio SZ CRDe relic Thar. And I bet I paid a whole lot less for my engine mods than the plonking of this old Scorpio SZ CRDe cost.

Yet another "Moga Special Edition", methinks. Generally speaking, and I do mean generally, not specifically, Moga shops do not enjoy good reputations.

The original 2.6L Scorpio motor was neutered slightly to meet export regulations for the Thar. It wasn't strictly a bean counter thing.

And what, may I ask, is an "oversquare short stroke engine"?
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Old 7th September 2019, 16:52   #124
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Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
Stock this old Scorpio motor is rated at 116 BHP. Not much of a gain over the existing 105 bhp OEM Thar motor. And there are easy ways of modding the existing Thar motor discussed above in this thread.

My guess is that my 2018 slightly tweaked OEM Thar will blow the doors off Khan's Scorpio SZ CRDe relic Thar. And I bet I paid a whole lot less for my engine mods than the plonking of this old Scorpio SZ CRDe cost.

Yet another "Moga Special Edition", methinks. Generally speaking, and I do mean generally, not specifically, Moga shops do not enjoy good reputations.

The original 2.6L Scorpio motor was neutered slightly to meet export regulations for the Thar. It wasn't strictly a bean counter thing.

And what, may I ask, is an "oversquare short stroke engine"?
The point is not about Moga shop reliability, its about why the Thar lacks bottom end torque compared to other vehicles in Mahindra stable which donot ! Its the Oversquare engine. I still remember Late Behram telling in one of his posts on the forum about SZ CRDE Scorpio engine's might. I still donot know what engine was in his V521 Prototype Thar.

To give you a better perspective, I have driven:

1. Scorpio SZ Crde on a steep incline, midway hill start in 1st gear 2wd. It moves ahead without the touching accelerator pedal, just normal clutch release. Did the same in 2nd gear, bit of acceleration needed but it moves.

Bore 94mm X Stroke 94mm Square engine. Torque band starting from RPMs 1200 upwards.


2. Friend's Thar OCT 2018 stock on same steep incline, midway hill start in 1st gear 2wd. It stalls, I had to use clutch slippage + accelerator push to make it move. Bore 94mm X Stroke 90mm Oversquare engine. Majority of Torque only available at RPMs above 1800

3. Bolero Camper 2017 MDI3200TC on same steep incline, midway hill start in 1st gear 2wd. It moves ahead with a surge without touching the accelerator pedal, just normal clutch release. Did the same in 2nd gear, moves ahead without accelerator being touched. Bore 88.9mm X Stroke 101.6mm Undersquare engine.

4. My Thar MAY 2018 "ECM REMAPPED" on same steep incline, midway hill start in 1st gear 2wd. It moves ahead without touching the accelerator with gentle clutch release. Bore 94mm X Stroke 90mm Oversquare engine. Torque band in this case as per my experience starts from 1500 RPM onwards

Oversquare engine has shorter Stroke travel length than Bore diameter dimensions . Good for high RPM, translates to highway cruising. Lacks bottom end Grunt severely. The reason the THAR suffers.

Square engine has same Stroke travel length and Bore diameter dimensions. Balanced recipe gives wider torque band. Scorpio SZ CRDE has this advantage.

Undersquare engine has larger Stroke travel length than Bore diameter. Torque concentration is at lower end of RPM band. MDI3200TC the torque band starts from almost Idling to 1800 RPM. This is what is required in offroading and load hauling. Tata 407 3.0L engine for example has 230NM torque availability at 1000 -2000 band. The large stroke travel needs heavy crank and flywheel which actually leverages into large amount of momentum thus advantageous for offroad vehicles, pickup, Trucks.



Ford Endeavour, Safari /Scorpio 2.2, Fortuner, Gurkha all of these vehicles have undersquare engines.

On Hills, MDI3200TC wins like anything. This engine just keeps on pulling ahead. The final drive ratio of Thar, Scorpio is 4:31 and Camper is 4:27. Still camper wins. Our forum member Ringoism [He has Marshal With MDI3200] knows what I am talking about.

Read these posts
First (XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340)

Second (XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340)

Last edited by The King : 7th September 2019 at 16:54.
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Old 7th September 2019, 18:37   #125
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Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Okay, bore and stroke by their older names. I had an Invader 4x4 with 4:88 crown gears that I put in
it and a stock MDI3200TC. It flew up the big hills here and embarrassed some people in Scorpios and Dusters. Even Fortuners had to work to stay ahead of me. I know Ringo from his posts here on this subject. Both my 2013 and late 2018 Thars handle the mountains okay, now that I have..updated...them. Not great, but okay, e.g. on the Manali/Leh road.

I believe Behram's test bed had a 2.6L and he probably knew some tricks to make it fly.

Are you aware of the new Mercedes powered 140bhp Gurkhas? Undersquare? Overpriced?
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Old 7th September 2019, 19:22   #126
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Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
Okay, bore and stroke by their older names. I had an Invader 4x4 with 4:88 crown gears that I put in
it and a stock MDI3200TC. It flew up the big hills here and embarrassed some people in Scorpios and Dusters. Even Fortuners had to work to stay ahead of me. I know Ringo from his posts here on this subject. Both my 2013 and late 2018 Thars handle the mountains okay, now that I have..updated...them. Not great, but okay, e.g. on the Manali/Leh road.
When my struggling Thar on inclined road + Traffic jam was overtaken by a Bolero Pickup loaded with cement bags on Markanda-Shimla Road, I was shell shocked and after that only my enlightenment started about the MDI3200TC

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
I believe Behram's test bed had a 2.6L and he probably knew some tricks to make it fly.
Even I tend to believe that only, otherwise the way he use to go gaga over that vehicle's prowess, was only possible with SZ2600 CRDE...


Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
Are you aware of the new Mercedes powered 140bhp Gurkhas? Undersquare? Overpriced?
Both FM2.2 CR [Gurkha Extreme]and FM2.6 CR [Gurkha Explorer/Expedition/Traveller] engines are Undersquare long stroke travel length engines. These engines are famous for low-end grunt.

Gurkha is way overpriced, yes. Has horrible finish on the dashboard which has RPM meter between AC vents , nodoubt an after thought jugaad job, No power windows/central locking on the vehicle which now costs in excess of 12.7 Lac Ex-showroom.

Some of its positive points are:

1. Front and Rear manually locking differentials.
2. Rigid front axle.
3. Coil spring suspension for comfort.
4. Undersquare Engine for Natural low-end grunt.
5. 5 Door option available.

Mahindra has just released the Bolero Camper ZX loaded with all basic creature comforts like central locking/AC/PS/Power windows/Cushioned seats/Console/New Dashboard but unfortunately it doesn't have 4WD option yet.


PS: These videos show the Thar vs Gurkha Low end grunt capability and crawling nature.




Last edited by The King : 7th September 2019 at 19:29.
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