[dhanushs]

Hi, Proud to have built, India's First PTO competition winch to be used in Extreme 4x4 Competitions.

India's 4x4 competitions difficulty level and equipment levels required have shot up drastically after the launch of RFC. The obstacles are getting tougher and tougher by the day and so is the equipment used to conquer the obstacles.

For example, the winch has changed its purpose from being a recovery tool when stuck to something used to conquer toughest obstacles. ie, each and every track WILL have an obstacle that cannot be driven up, and winch should be used. Even the size of the obstacle is increasing every passing year. Climbing up a 10 feet high vertical 90-degree wall is doable today, in India. And, with all these obstacles inside a competition, speed with which the winch works started to get importance.

Earlier we used to have 8000-pound recovery winches. All recovery winches used to have more or less the same speed. A very popular model - The Warn M8000 speed is quoted below. For me, two speeds matter. Speed under no load and Speed under full load. In this case, its 9.2 meters/min under no load and 1.46 meter/min under full load.



Then came the M8274. The M8274 was probably the first competition winch to come to India. The speeds - 22.17 meter/min under no load and 2.65 meters/min under full load.



Then came Come UP Blazer and Giggle Pin and Red Hornet. I'm not getting into which one is better, but, just to get the perspective, the speeds of come up blazer is: The speeds - 50 meter/min under no load and 1.65 meters/min under full load.



Well, for me, I found all these winches lacking when it came pulling up in some really extreme obstacles. They became very slow. While here in India, we were using electric winches, Malaysians were using PTO winches, in which speed is NO limit! (Not technically).

So, I decided to develop a PTO winch. After all, PTO winches were still being used to pull timber and sorts. But, not for competitions. I just had to optimise it for competitons.

[dhanushs]

The PTO means - Power Take Off. Tractors and some other commercial vehicles already have it. I mean, the PTO out. Basically, you get the engine output through a shaft from the gearbox. This can be modified into running anything from the engine. I fixed an extra gearbox, to take the PTO out from the gearbox.

I have a KMT90 gearbox. I have fit an additional PTO gearbox to the main gearbox to get an output shaft. Further, from the output shaft, I'm powering the winch I've fabricated.

The speed:

Like I said, PTO is fast! And can pull some CRAZY loads. After all its powered by the engine, and I have a 200 bhp engine. .

The speed of the winch is: the engine rpm reduced by which gear ratio you are running reduced by reduction at the winch, in my case 4.27. So, excuse if the figures are slightly rounded up.

A Comparison.



The working:

The electric winch work by a spring-loaded switch. There is IN and there is OUT. There is also a free spool button in the electric winch.

In the PTO winch too, there is only one extra lever. Its the PTO ON/OFF. If you want the PTO to run, you need to put the lever to ON, and vice versa.

If you want to winch your vehicle up, you need to get the rope out and hook it in an anchor point. To do that, you stop your vehicle, put the Transfer Case to Neutral, PTO lever to ON and Main Gearbox to reverse. Use PTO Brakes as needed. The rope will start coming out (by pulling). This, in an electric winch, is just by pressing a switch, which is convenient.

Once anchored, you just put the main gearbox into first or whatever speed/load you need and drive. If you need to use the tyres as well, for instance, in a 10 feet high wall, you don't want to put all the load to the winch, you put the Transfer Case to High/Low whatever speed/load (mostly low) you want and drive up.

The Advantages & Disadvantages of PTO Winch:

Advantages:

- Atleast 50x more speed than recovery winches and 5x more speed than competition winches (excuse the math).
- Unlimited load pulling capacity. Limited by rope and chassis foundation and PTO drive strength.
- Can control spool in speed, even under load, by a huge margin.
- Excellent winch braking.
- When winching, the pulling force distribution is vastly improved. Can also route through front axle.

Disadvantages:

- Cannot winch vehicle when engine is off. (=toppled)
- Cannot winch if there is drive train problems.
- Need 4x more strength for rope.
- Increases vehicle weight by atleast 80kgs.
- Not as convenient as electric winches.

[dhanushs]

Now some videos.

PTO winch pulling in NO LOAD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWNzUkFXStg

Comparison with Warn winch: Watch from 12.35 seconds.

https://youtu.be/O-n30T7VpnM?t=755

PTO while pulling up.

https://youtu.be/tX7xP1wRrj4

Comparison with recovery winch.

https://youtu.be/DoYejGh0440

Some more videos.

https://youtu.be/sFDtPfIwKc4

https://youtu.be/wRn9NFl2z_k

Crawling in PTO. Used when you need to navigate when winching up and need slow speed. (In this video, i'm accelerating and not really crawling. But, can go up in idle engine rpm, which is pretty slow)

https://youtu.be/_01wZv4_LLg

One more thing which is against PTO winch is the brakes. Without proper brakes, you run a risk of even damaging your engine if the rope is pulled the other way round by thw weight of the car in the middle of winching when you stop.

Watch how brakes work in a steep incline.

https://youtu.be/vD3lKC3Rz80

[Rehaan]

Thread moved out from the Assembly Line. Thanks for sharing!

Dhanushs,

How about sharing some pictures of the winch mechanism? Would be keen to see...

- R

[Alfresco]

Did you mount the PTO gearbox between the regular gearbox and rear driveshaft?

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by Rehaan

How about sharing some pictures of the winch mechanism? Would be keen to see...

Hi Rehaan,

Jeep is not with me at the moment. Once I reach home , I’ll post pics.

Originally Posted by Alfresco

Did you mount the PTO gearbox between the regular gearbox and rear driveshaft?

The rear drive shaft comes out from the TC. The PTO gearbox sits behind main gearbox. The main shaft of the main gearbox drives the PTO

[RAINMAKER]

Lamda components Bangalore used to / develop PTO winches.
Have seen it on I think on MP Sreenivasan’s Jeep almost 4 or 5 years back.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by RAINMAKER

Lamda components Bangalore used to / develop PTO winches.
Have seen it on I think on MP Sreenivasan’s Jeep almost 4 or 5 years back.

Nope. That’s hydraulic winch. May be drive pump from PTO.

MPS has a hydraulic winch.

[khan_sultan]

Originally Posted by dhanushs

......Basically, you get the engine output through a shaft from the gearbox. This can be modified into running anything from the engine. I fixed an extra gearbox, to take the PTO out from the gearbox.

I have a KMT90 gearbox. I have fit an additional PTO gearbox to the main gearbox to get an output shaft. Further, from the output shaft, I'm powering the winch I've fabricated.

......

Awesome!! Nothing like a DIY that works like you intend it to.

Dhanush: Do share details of the items in bold and pictures. f someone wants to do what you have done, how do they go about it?

Q's:
# Which is the additional PTO gearbox you have fitted? Details please. What should one keep in mind when doing this? What if some folks have main gearbox other than KMT90
# You mention "winch I've fabricated". What does that mean? What all went into this? Details and pics please.

Again, hats off to you for doing this and more importantly, sharing it!!

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by khan_sultan

Awesome!! Nothing like a DIY that works like you intend it to.

Thank you!. And sorry for the late response. Last week has been really hectic after the Xtreme Offroad Challenge.

Dhanush: Do share details of the items in bold and pictures. f someone wants to do what you have done, how do they go about it?

Will share the pictures soon. Haven't got the Jeep home. It's with my mechanic boy.

# Which is the additional PTO gearbox you have fitted? Details please.

Well, the PTO gearbox too isnt made by any mainstream manufacturer. Its being fabricated by a company in Coimbatore.

What should one keep in mind when doing this?

I'd say, safety. All the other PTO applications in the country is done when the vehicle with PTO is stationary and properly anchored. Here its the vehicle which is pulling itself up. Imagine a steep slushy incline and you are winching up, and you need to stop in the middle. Vehicle foot brakes, even though locked will not hold you and you will slide down, so it has to be the winch that needs to hold you. If you dont have a proper brake mechanism, you will run the risk of coming back (against the engine compression) and even the engine turning the other way round.

What if some folks have main gearbox other than KMT90

Will have to fabricate the PTO gearbox to suit that gearbox. In my limited knowledge, I may be wrong, but, older LC model gearboxes and some other gearboxes are similar to the Indian KMT90 where the gearbox main shaft comes out. And its easy to fit a PTO gearbox. In gearboxes where you don't have an opening for the main shaft, you will have to fabricate one.

# You mention "winch I've fabricated". What does that mean? What all went into this? Details and pics please.

Once you have the PTO out from the gearbox, which is pretty easy and mostly bolt on. You need to locate your winch. I've fitted my winch in the back so that while winching there is a HUGE force distribution advantage.

Once the winch is located, you need to fabricate a mechanism(winch). This mechanism transfers the drive from rear prop shaft of the PTO out to turning the winch drum. I've used a crown/pinion gear. After which, the out from the winch gearbox turns the drum. This part should be just like an electric winch.

The winch will need to have bearings for the axle shaft to turn, proper foundation along the bearings and the gearboxes and preferably a drum free-spool mechanism. Will try to send the photos of the winch.

Again, hats off to you for doing this and more importantly, sharing it!!

Thanks again.

[dhanushs]

Sorry for the back-to-back posts, but, this is a pretty important message.

WARNING WHILE OPERATING WINCH.

In India, we are so used to the convenience of the electric winch that we will make some dangerous and potentially fatal mistakes while using the PTO.

One mistake I made, and is very much possible is: To forget to disengage PTO.

When the mind is in competition mode, and all you are looking for is to finish/complete the obstacle, this happens. An electric winch actuation is by a spring-loaded switch. You press to pull up and you take your hand off to stop. Whereas in PTO its just slot into gear and pull up. But, once done, you have to remember to manually turn off the PTO lever. If you forget and continue driving, the rope and the hook will be pulled in and will get jammed in the front cross member. And the winch will keep pulling till either the winch, or the rope or the chassis gives up.

Another possible mistake is: Improper use of winch brakes, or clutch.

In a competition scenario, imagine a steep slushy incline. You are pulling yourself up and halfway through. But, you need to stop because of any reason (damper getting in, bunting tape on the way, obstacles on the way). The instinct is to press the clutch and brakes together to stop.

But, if you have not connected the winch brake to the foot pedal, pressing the clutch will disengage the winch from the driveline and the rope will start to spool out and vehicle will slide downhill. You wont be able to stop the vehicles with only locking the wheels. You will need winch brakes. This is a dangerous scenario when the incline is high. Also, midway if you try to engage the clutch, the vehicle will move against the engine compression and the engine might even turn backwards. Or you will break your gearbox.
So, you always need to make sure the winch brakes are working (in the mode) you want it to be.

In my winch, I have a handbrake for the winch, as well as I can engage the foot brakes to the winch. So, if I need to pull someone up and anchor myself, I'll disengage the foot brakes to the winch, and other times engage it.

[PapaBravo]

That's a magical winch you got there dhanushs. With such high line speeds how do you manage to keep the rope untangled while pulling in no load ? Sorry if its a noob question.

Cheers

Pawan

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by PapaBravo

That's a magical winch you got there dhanushs. With such high line speeds how do you manage to keep the rope untangled while pulling in no load ? Sorry if its a noob question.

Cheers

Pawan

I have guides for the rope below the chassis, till the drum. The first fairlead is only a feet away from the drum. So, however fast you pull, it spools in correctly into the drum. The only tangle you get is from outside the system.

Also, remember I can control the spool in speed. To as low as an electric winch.

[Sanzen]

Hi Dhanush, great to see your innovative PTO winch. As requested by other members also, please share the details/pictures.
-As far as disengaging the PTO is concerned, you could put a winch protecter/saver block on the rope, and fabricate a spring loaded fairlead. The winch protecter would push the fairlead, which could further be attached with push button/s to actuate warning light or alarm inside the cabin, in case the one forgets to disengage.
-For winch braking concerns, you could also desiign and develop a high load ratchet system for unidirectional climb. This could be fitted on the winch spool shaft using a shaft extension flange. It might help in retaining the uphill climb in case clutch is pressed mistakenly. A release mechanism could be used in case of downhill movement required.

The mechanisms I suggested might seem to be unrealistic, but I work in an OEM, in advanced engineering team, where my team turns similar ideas in to realistic ones. Keep innovating.

Thanks for sharing your DIY idea.

Regards,
Sourabh

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by Sanzen

-As far as disengaging the PTO is concerned, you could put a winch protecter/saver block on the rope, and fabricate a spring loaded fairlead. The winch protecter would push the fairlead, which could further be attached with push button/s to actuate warning light or alarm inside the cabin, in case the one forgets to disengage.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Right now, I've decided to put a switch on the lever. If the lever moves to the ON position, the sound comes on.

-For winch braking concerns, you could also desiign and develop a high load ratchet system for unidirectional climb. This could be fitted on the winch spool shaft using a shaft extension flange. It might help in retaining the uphill climb in case clutch is pressed mistakenly. A release mechanism could be used in case of downhill movement required.

Yes, right now, I'm running a drum brake, but, a positive engagement brake is under development.