[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by desertfox

Two batteries would require a cut out circuit. Placing two batteries in parallel without a control unit would lead to charging and drain out problems. If another battery is installed, prefereably a deep cycle one ( like Optima ) for winching and extra load then a full cut out circuit is recommended.

It is NOT required. It IS recommeded. The only problem with a 2 battery set up with no switch or isolator is if one of the batteries goes bad. That can drain the other one. But the idea is to keep an eye on them and not let that happen.

The ideal way is to use 2, or more batteries with an isolator. An isolator is a device which lets the alternator charge both batteries but each battery's discharge circuit is kept separate (isolated) so that the discharge of one battery does not discharge the other.

A 'deep cycle' battery is a battery that is built to be drained and then replenished with a charge over and over again. Car batteries are NOT deep cycle batteries. If you do this to a car battery it will fail, become damaged, in relatively short order.

[DesertKing]

Thanks guys, this thread was informative. Does anybody have any idea about the price for a new alternator of Safari. The used one is costing here aprox INR 4000.

[DesertKing]

I checked with the Tata dealer and understood that the new alternator of Safari costs INR 26,000 which I can efford. I went for the used one which is quite a very good shape, had got this serviced and changed the cut out inside this.

Last Saturday I got fitted 2 hellas of 60W each and two fog lamps of 35W each and the head lamp bulb is Philips 90/100 W which I am going to upgrade to Philips 100/130. The results are amazing and it has a far batter lights in the nights now, good that I can keep them on even on idealing rev of engine.

[sgiitk]

I do not quite understand as to why you need a bigger battery. The single most important element in determining the battery size is the cranking power required. As for the rest as long as you meet the power needs with a proper alternator you should be Ok.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

I do not quite understand as to why you need a bigger battery. The single most important element in determining the battery size is the cranking power required. As for the rest as long as you meet the power needs with a proper alternator you should be Ok.

Some people with a lot of accessories like to keep a circuit separate for that purpose, e.g. lots of lights for off-roading or for use at night camping with the engine off. But, yes, you are quite correct, the alternator is prime source of electricity, not the battery(s) as many people think.

[MexXxentric]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

The single most important element in determining the battery size is the cranking power required. As for the rest as long as you meet the power needs with a proper alternator you should be Ok.

Few alternators can supply their rated amps. when the vehicle is idling or while running at low engine speeds like offroad trails.

In such situations the battery will be drained and so, the extra battery will help,

For on-road vehicle with extra lights, bigger alternator alone is sufficient.
But for off-road vehicles its better to have reserve battery.

[harjeev]

@brutus
As always you are an ocean of knowledge. Thanks for the info mate!!!


Great thread and the info provided by everybody is excellent!!!

BTW what is the size of an alternator on a stock Gypsy?

[Quarter Mile]

Reviving an old thread.

Anybody know the recommended battery for an MG413? I noticed after I bought my Gypsy that it has an Amazon Fresh battery which reads "For 3 Wheelers Only".

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Quarter Mile

Reviving an old thread.

Anybody know the recommended battery for an MG413? I noticed after I bought my Gypsy that it has an Amazon Fresh battery which reads "For 3 Wheelers Only".

Most of maruti petrol cars have the default 35 AH battery in them. Especially the ones with 1 to 1.3 liter petrol engines. So most likely it would be 35 AH, amaron fresh i guess is the entry level model with 12 months warranty. Not sure if they have any 3 wheeler specific model also.

[whitemm550]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Most of maruti petrol cars have the default 35 AH battery in them. Especially the ones with 1 to 1.3 liter petrol engines. So most likely it would be 35 AH, amaron fresh i guess is the entry level model with 12 months warranty. Not sure if they have any 3 wheeler specific model also.

hi.
yes the Amaron Fresh in 35 AH is used widely in 3 wheelers, and is not recommended for a Gypsy.
i suggest you use the Amaron FLO 42B20R, which comes with a 24=24 months warranty, and meets all the requirements to crank your engine up, unless you want to use a heavy duty winch on your vehicle...

[Quarter Mile]

Originally Posted by whitemm550

hi.
yes the Amaron Fresh in 35 AH is used widely in 3 wheelers, and is not recommended for a Gypsy.
i suggest you use the Amaron FLO 42B20R, which comes with a 24=24 months warranty, and meets all the requirements to crank your engine up, unless you want to use a heavy duty winch on your vehicle...

Thanks mate. I had got this checked with my regular battery person who runs an EXIDE showroom and he checked the voltage and mentioned it’s fine. I however am not convinced.

I also face a starting issue. I had got the starter replaced as well. I get dead clicks and after a few attempts the car starts. This happens very regularly. Could this be due to the battery?

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by Quarter Mile

I also face a starting issue. I had got the starter replaced as well. I get dead clicks and after a few attempts the car starts. This happens very regularly. Could this be due to the battery?

It’s probably an alternator issue. If the battery will only hold charge if the alternator is constantly restoring back the charge that the battery has drained in the load cycle, I.e. power consumed by the starter is restored back into the battery by the alternator once the engine is running.

I wonder why people believe that on adding high current consuming equipment to the vehicle, all you need to do is upgrade to a bigger battery and just that would be sufficient. That’s not really the case.

As a rule, “a Battery is only EVER supposed to handle the load used when the engine is not running or for starting the vehicle”. When the engine is running, the entire electrical load is actually only supposed to be handled by the alternator (generator). The battery will only take the load when the current demand is higher than what the alternator can handle by itself (which only happens when you add high current consuming aftermarket accessories, because the vehicle comes from the factory with a large enough alternator to handle by itself the entire load the enquipment that comes stock with the vehicle, so that the battery only comes into play while cranking the starter motor, or when the engine is not firing). The correct solution in such a situation (upon adding high current consuming equipment), is to upgrade the alternator to a larger unit so that it can take the entire load by itself.

To elaborate further, the battery of your vehicle functions just like the overhead watertank in your house, while the alternator is the equivalent of the water supply from the waterworks/tubewell. Imagine that you have a single 500 litre overhead watertank in your house, while the administration supplies water to the overhead tank for just 1/2 hour on a daily basis, with the total amount of water you receive within that half an hour is also 500 liters, just enough to fill the overhead tank.

Now assume that you suddenly have more people living in your house (equivalent of adding high current consuming aftermarket accessory/s in your vehicle; a winch maybe), and therefore the water demand has risen higher than what that single 500 liter tank can supply, or in other words, you require more than just 500 liters of water on a dialy basis. In that scenerio, replacing the battery with a bigger one is just like replacing the 500 liter water tank with a larger 1000 liter water tank, while doing nothing about the alternator, or the water supply in this case. Its obvious that the 1000 liter water tank would do you no good, because the supply from the waterworks is still 1/2 hour, and therefore still 500 liters. The 1000 liter water tank would only ever be filled to half its capacity, unless you do something to upgrade the supply that recharges the tank. The same way, a larger battery will only be recharged to whatever current the stock alternator is supplying. Since the circuit is limited by the alternator, the correct solution would be to upgrade to a larger alternator, which not only powers all the equipment in the vehicle, but rather still has enough surplus current despite that, to be able to charge the battery in every duty cycle (in other words, replace the energy that the battery had passed/expended on to the starter motor while cranking the engine).

With a winch, a load is heavier still. Even if the winch is powered by a 1 Horsepower motor, which equals approximately 750watts of additional load, which itself at 12 volts equals 62amps of extra load on the vehicle’s alternator. Given that a regular vehicle only has a 55amps alternator (which inturn would only ever supply a max current of 35amps, for even the best alternators have only 65% efficiency once it gets hot), it would never be sufficient because it is only producing roughly half of the power that the winch is demanding, and that is besides the current demanded by other things which are also supposed to be handled by the alternator, i.e., engine ECU, Headlights, Air Conditioner, Electronic Power Steering, etc, etc. The rest of the load, in the event, would fall on the battery, but since the alternator primarily the load and only the surplus current is used to charge the battery, the lack of any surplus current would mean that the battery is not just not recharging, but rather loosing charge rapidly because of sharing the load of the winch (and that sort of heavy current drain and recharge cycle drastically reduces the lifespan of the battery too; the reason why battery’s for diesel engines don’t survive as long as those used with petrol engines, because of their heavier drain and recharge cycles).

By the way, most winches in the market have motors that make more than 1 Horsepower, so the current draw goes even higher, requiring an even more powerful alternator to fix the circuit appropriately.
(1 Horsepower=748watts, while wattage/voltage=current, therefore 748watts/12volts=62.33Amps )

Hope that helps.

[Quarter Mile]

Thanks mate. In my case, my wiring was a complete mess. Changed the entire wiring kit and a new set of keys and now, voila!

Originally Posted by Brutus

It’s probably an alternator issue. If the battery will only hold charge if the alternator is constantly restoring back the charge that the battery has drained in the load cycle, I.e. power consumed by the starter is restored back into the battery by the alternator once the engine is running.

I wonder why people believe that on adding high current consuming equipment to the vehicle, all you need to do is upgrade to a bigger battery and just that would be sufficient. That’s not really the case.

As a rule, “a Battery is only EVER supposed to handle the load used when the engine is not running or for starting the vehicle”. When the engine is running, the entire electrical load is actually only supposed to be handled by the alternator (generator). The battery will only take the load when the current demand is higher than what the alternator can handle by itself (which only happens when you add high current consuming aftermarket accessories, because the vehicle comes from the factory with a large enough alternator to handle by itself the entire load the enquipment that comes stock with the vehicle, so that the battery only comes into play while cranking the starter motor, or when the engine is not firing). The correct solution in such a situation (upon adding high current consuming equipment), is to upgrade the alternator to a larger unit so that it can take the entire load by itself.

To elaborate further, the battery of your vehicle functions just like the overhead watertank in your house, while the alternator is the equivalent of the water supply from the waterworks/tubewell. Imagine that you have a single 500 litre overhead watertank in your house, while the administration supplies water to the overhead tank for just 1/2 hour on a daily basis, with the total amount of water you receive within that half an hour is also 500 liters, just enough to fill the overhead tank.

Now assume that you suddenly have more people living in your house (equivalent of adding high current consuming aftermarket accessory/s in your vehicle; a winch maybe), and therefore the water demand has risen higher than what that single 500 liter tank can supply, or in other words, you require more than just 500 liters of water on a dialy basis. In that scenerio, replacing the battery with a bigger one is just like replacing the 500 liter water tank with a larger 1000 liter water tank, while doing nothing about the alternator, or the water supply in this case. Its obvious that the 1000 liter water tank would do you no good, because the supply from the waterworks is still 1/2 hour, and therefore still 500 liters. The 1000 liter water tank would only ever be filled to half its capacity, unless you do something to upgrade the supply that recharges the tank. The same way, a larger battery will only be recharged to whatever current the stock alternator is supplying. Since the circuit is limited by the alternator, the correct solution would be to upgrade to a larger alternator, which not only powers all the equipment in the vehicle, but rather still has enough surplus current despite that, to be able to charge the battery in every duty cycle (in other words, replace the energy that the battery had passed/expended on to the starter motor while cranking the engine).

With a winch, a load is heavier still. Even if the winch is powered by a 1 Horsepower motor, which equals approximately 750watts of additional load, which itself at 12 volts equals 62amps of extra load on the vehicle’s alternator. Given that a regular vehicle only has a 55amps alternator (which inturn would only ever supply a max current of 35amps, for even the best alternators have only 65% efficiency once it gets hot), it would never be sufficient because it is only producing roughly half of the power that the winch is demanding, and that is besides the current demanded by other things which are also supposed to be handled by the alternator, i.e., engine ECU, Headlights, Air Conditioner, Electronic Power Steering, etc, etc. The rest of the load, in the event, would fall on the battery, but since the alternator primarily the load and only the surplus current is used to charge the battery, the lack of any surplus current would mean that the battery is not just not recharging, but rather loosing charge rapidly because of sharing the load of the winch (and that sort of heavy current drain and recharge cycle drastically reduces the lifespan of the battery too; the reason why battery’s for diesel engines don’t survive as long as those used with petrol engines, because of their heavier drain and recharge cycles).

By the way, most winches in the market have motors that make more than 1 Horsepower, so the current draw goes even higher, requiring an even more powerful alternator to fix the circuit appropriately.
(1 Horsepower=748watts, while wattage/voltage=current, therefore 748watts/12volts=62.33Amps )

Hope that helps.

[whitemm550]

Originally Posted by Quarter Mile

Thanks mate. I had got this checked with my regular battery person who runs an EXIDE showroom and he checked the voltage and mentioned it’s fine. I however am not convinced.

I also face a starting issue. I had got the starter replaced as well. I get dead clicks and after a few attempts the car starts. This happens very regularly. Could this be due to the battery?

hi.
just get the CCA ( cold cranking ) of the battery checked, it has to be above 300, if not, then better to change the battery.