[Aroy]

If you are traveling in such inhospitable region, please go for a new vehicle. The Montero may be excellent vehicle, but you never know about pre owned specimens. The Montero is the current generation Pajero with a unitary chassis in contrast to the ladder chassis of Pajero

In my opinion, the Pajero is just the right vehicle for Kashmir and Ladak. It has
. very little electronics to go bad, so no electrical gremlins
. extremely rugged
. excellent visibility
. excellent suspension
. excellent ride
. all disk breaks
. the correct gearing for bad/no roads
. in Kashmir you can use the BS-III engine which has more power than the BS-IV engine.

The only problem with Pajero is Highway Speeds where Fortuner wins, but I do not think one would be scorching the tarmac at 100+ in Ladak let alone 140+, and at that speed Pajero rocks.

The spares for Pajero are not at all expensive, and are available at reasonable price through importers. Though Fortuner is Toyota, the Pajero is as tough and as trouble free.

You can go through the thread of a recent Pajero buyer to get the pros and cons. http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/suvs-m...ajero-sfx.html

[Harbir]

I hear you guys about the service network but its not very convincing simply because if my fortuner breakers down in Padum or in turtuk or in chushul or in sarchu, I would just as out of luck with a fortuner as I would with a montero. the only difference would be that I would need to get the fortuner towed only to leh (and hope they had the fortuner parts in stock), or have the montero towed further afield.

both would present me with the same problem and the fortuner is not all that much smaller or lighter to make a difference in towability or haulability.

There is certainly a considerable degree of advantage in having service shops in leh and srinagar so if the vehicle can limp along, you don't have to go as far to get it fixed up, but even in a fortuner you can easily be a two day drive from a service shop.

if either breaks down or suffers a serious failure, the toyota has a small but not devastating advantage. it becomes a devastatinga advantage only if you break down 2 hours out of leh instead of 2 days.

but I will keep the point very much in mind

Originally Posted by Aroy

You can go through the thread of a recent Pajero buyer to get the pros and cons. http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/suvs-m...ajero-sfx.html

thats my thread and I didn't buy the Pajero :-) as explained elsewhere, I decided to wait and see if Mitsubishi would give it a newer engine to meet BSIV regs. this look at the montero is me coming back to 20lac 4 x 4s but now on my dad's behalf since he's decided he wants a vehicle in this class, while I have moved on to thinking that a thar or a gypsy is what i want

[RS_DEL]

Originally Posted by Harbir

I hear you guys about the service network but its not very convincing simply because if my fortuner breakers down in Padum or in turtuk or in chushul or in sarchu, I would just as out of luck with a t now on my dad's behalf since he's decided he wants a vehicle in this class, while I have moved on to thinking that a thar or a gypsy is what i want

Disclaimer: I am not from the Toyota sales team.

Per the MMC website the nearest MMC dealer ,and probably an ASC as well , to Srinagar is in Amritsar.

OT:How is the scene in Srinagar for families (esp Hindus) who left in times of troubles? Are they able to go back and visit without any threats/risks?

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by Harbir

please delete / disregard this post

Sorry Harbir. Got confused with http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...omes-home.html

Any way, I still maintain that a new Pajero is better than second hand Montero, as there are fewer electronics to go wrong. As far as mechanicals go, that can happen to any car (including G Wagen and Hummer). Barring major accident (or a bashed sump/differential), neither a Pajero nor a Fortuner will break down that easily. Any thing can breakdown in remote areas, and has to be towed to the nearest repair centre. Where the centre is what matters for logistics.

[Harbir]

Originally Posted by RS_DEL

Per the MMC website the nearest MMC dealer ,and probably an ASC as well , to Srinagar is in Amritsar.

OT:How is the scene in Srinagar for families (esp Hindus) who left in times of troubles? Are they able to go back and visit without any threats/risks?

If I have to arrange a tow for a fortuner from from padum to leh or srinagar, then adding on the srinagar to amritsar section becomes trivial. 95% of the challenge is in getting the vehicle to leh or srinagar. if I can do that, then getting it further to ASR is not a problem.

a used vehicle is a used vehicle, of course.

on your OT question, kashmir has a remarkable sense of normalcy now. for the first time in 20 years I see the armed forces being civil and non-threatening to ordinary people and for the first time in as many years I see ordinary kashmiris living as if they are in a normal place with no fear or humiliation.

its wonderful.

anyway, back on topic, I have never driven a fortuner but I tried to get my dad to consider it some months ago when he first started asking about the Montero and he said that he'd driven one and had found the ride and handling too truck like. He also test drove the Pajero SFX with me and said that the engine was adequately powerful for him but that it had the handling, steering response and ride quality that he would consider paying 20 lacs for. I for my part am not convinced that the pajero's engine has the juice the driver needs in the mountains to acclerate past trucks on uphill sections at high altitudes in the brief gaps on gets. I also found its second row awful because the outboard arm rests push the occupants closer to the center line of the vehicle and out of line with the front seats and and their feet banging into stuff instead of slipping under the front seats.

On the other hand, I have a lot of faith in the Pajero's soundness in harsh conditions and I particularly like how superb the visibility out of the driver's seat is, which is very important for threading bad surfaces where you need to be able to see the surface very close to the front tyres. the Fortuner with its high cowl is not confidence inspiring on that account.

but there is no getting around the fortuner's powerful engine that rivals the '08 Montero's.

I will make some test drives soon.

[Ricky_63]

The Pajero is a tried & tested mule. The Montero is hugely problematic on maintainence. Fortuner is nice & powerful, but cannot match a Pajero in some areas.

Yes I agree it is a 15 year old design blah blah blah - but it still holds it's own. The least problematic of the lot & cheap to maintain...Just my 2 cents




Cheers

[mdsaab]

If it were me i would go for the T-Fort. If you feel you need a few more features you can wait for the face lifted one.
I would prefer a new vehicle rather than an old one. You know the full history of the car, and are more sure of it's capabilities.
Yes the Pajero is a mountain goat and will be more agile up there than the T-Fort.
But when you are spending so much, you want that little more which can he had in the T-Fort.
Also the maintenance costs from what i have read on Guderian's wonderful thread, are really reasonable. and the vehicle is extremely reliable and trouble free.
Definately my choice of the current crop.
T-Fort

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by Ricky_63

The Pajero is a tried & tested mule. The Montero is hugely problematic on maintainence. Fortuner is nice & powerful, but cannot match a Pajero in some areas.

Yes I agree it is a 15 year old design blah blah blah - but it still holds it's own. The least problematic of the lot & cheap to maintain...Just my 2 cents

Cheers

An old design is at time blessing in disguise. Modern high efficiency engines and to some extent drive trains depend a lot on electronics. Unfortunately the electronics in automobiles has not kept up with mechanicals in robustness and reliability. That is why low tech vehicles are referred for expeditions. As an example the LC series 70 is preferred to the more modern LC 100/200 series in the remote areas of Australia and Africa.

With defective mechanicals you can improvise and limp back home, but with defective electronics you are right royally stuck in the middle of nowhere!

I feel that even in remote areas, there will always be a mechanic who understands mechanical repairs, but to expect them to have expertise to repair complex electronics of engine management and drive train controls (as in soft roaders) or automatic transmission, or even electrically operated 4x4 selector, is asking for too much.

For reliability a robust mechanical beast using older time proven technology is better than a modern electronics driven vehicle. As long as they are maintained well, oil changed regularly and generous guards under the sumps and differentials are there, the older generation Pajero has no peer.

From what I have read, the Pajero has more than enough power for hill and off road tracks, inspite of its insipid (by comparison to modern engines) specifications. In fact in one to one comparison Pajero scores over the Fortuner in hills and off road.

[Ricky_63]

@aroy

You have put your thoughts down very well, I think it says it all. It actually reflects my own thoughts perfectly !! Now I guess its upto Harbir to deciede what he'd like to buy.

Nice post

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by Harbir

thats my thread and I didn't buy the Pajero :-) as explained elsewhere, I decided to wait and see if Mitsubishi would give it a newer engine to meet BSIV regs

Mitsubish has met BSIV with the same engine by reducing horsepower. But i guess, power doesn't matter as it is all about the legendary off-roadability. Who cares if one cannot keep up with a Sumo Victa...

[Aroy]

What matters in mountains is adequate torque to take on the hostile conditions. I have seen IDI based vehicles take on the mountains and off roads where modern SUV with twice the power-to-weight ratio falter. Ultimately it all depends whether the Pajero is able to match its competitors in Ladak or not. 200 BHP on the highway is excellent, but if only 30-40 is available at relatively low speeds while negotiating bad roads or climbing steep hills is definitely not going to help.

After all many of us have used a 25 HP tractor to pull us out when the 100+ HP 4x4 is stuck right royally in mud!

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Mitsubish has met BSIV with the same engine by reducing horsepower. But i guess, power doesn't matter as it is all about the legendary off-roadability. Who cares if one cannot keep up with a Sumo Victa...

I cannot comment about Victa, but in Mizoram I have seen the Spacio Taxis plough through thick mud, which even trucks avoid. It is sheer low RPM torque that matters here, not the high speed horsepower.

[Harbir]

I will not advise my dad to buy a reduced hp pajero so If it's a pajero it will be bs3. And hp is not unimportant. All over the mountains hp is needed to overtake slower moving trucks and buses in very short spaces.

There does not seem to be a perfect answer. I will test drove all 3 and decide.

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by Harbir

I hear you guys about the service network but its not very convincing simply because if my fortuner breakers down in Padum or in turtuk or in chushul or in sarchu, I would just as out of luck with a fortuner as I would with a montero.

If you bought a Toureg or ML, then you should be worried about these things.

When was the last time you saw a newish & well maintained Japanese car broken down in the middle of the road? Myself, rarely and almost never.

Originally Posted by .anshuman

The Montero is not a Pick-up truck based cut cost SUV like the Fortuner.

Exactly !!

Montero competes with Prado and not Fortuner.
Mitsu Challenger is their version of pickup based SUV and is not sold in India.
Indian Paj is old gen Montero.

I will not advise my dad to buy a reduced hp pajero so If it's a pajero it will be bs3

Might want to check if there are chipping/tuning options on the BS3 to bump up power.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by Aroy

After all many of us have used a 25 HP tractor to pull us out when the 100+ HP 4x4 is stuck right royally in mud!

Do you know the gearing of the tractor with the 25 bhp engine?

The Pajero debate is endless. Like I said if you will be driving predominantly off-road, Pajero is the way to go.