[zipperone]

Why even bother with a new design. Start producing the defender at reasonable prices. You own JLR after all , how difficult can it be.

[SDP]

Originally Posted by zipperone

Why even bother with a new design. Start producing the defender at reasonable prices. You own JLR after all , how difficult can it be.

As you correctly mentioned, making LR cheaper might not be very difficult. The question is should Tata do it and dilute that brand? That would be bringing 'down' the acquisitions to Tata's level.

My guess is that Tata's strategy is to bring themselves 'up' to the level of Jagquar and LandRover and command a premium for the products. Just look at how Aria was priced. What Tatas conveniently forgot was that first the product has to match up the ruggedness and the reliability part before you can start asking for a premium.

[zipperone]

Tata does not need to dilute the brand and call it a "TATA defender". It can always be sold under the LR banner. The defender is already produced under licence in SA and ir built in countries like Sri Lanka at a much cheaper price than the UK. Take out the material and labor costs of manufacturing in the UK and the import duties and the basic models of the defender can actually be sold in the 8-10 lakh bracket. And then TATA was always about India. Had they launched the defender rather than the ARIA, they would have walked away with a larger share of the market that is now covered by the yeti and the XUV 500 and perhaps even nibbled at the high end scorpio buyer too not to mention the fortuner.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by jeepster

i agree with 4x4addict,
instead of building a XENON GRANDE (no.3 & 5 in discoverwild's pic) they are concentrating on this.

Attachment 857206
Attachment 857207
Spied - Tata Xenon CNG?

Actually i don't find this strategy bad,rather it's welcome.
After all they should be replacing the 207DI EX/RX with the commercial variant of the Xenon at 4-6 lacs and the existing Xenon variant as a lifestyle vehicle at 7lacs. That's how it is being done in all other markets by Tata and also internationally followed in the pick up market.
Me too waiting for a 4X4 compact SUV from Tata.

[CADAVER]

Tata Aria is one of the wildest automobile designs , i really like the concept
but i think little overpriced and improperly projected

Tata Sierra is star but was not for masses / family

[DirtyDan]

What is marketable world-wide with oil reserves dwindling? A small SUV ala Suzuki Jimny based around TATA's CR4, sharing parts with CR4 vehicles in the TATA inventory.

Imagine a Gypsy sized vehicle but with a diesel 4 banger getting well over 20kpl. Two levels, stripped down suitable for off-road use and a deluxe version with the usual amenities. Give it some big tyres and GC. Target the weight at 1000-1200, stand back and take the bookings!

[condor]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

A small SUV .. based around TATA's CR4, sharing parts with CR4 vehicles in the TATA inventory.

Imagine a Gypsy sized vehicle but with a diesel 4 banger getting well over 20kpl. Two levels, stripped down suitable for off-road use and a deluxe version with the usual amenities. Give it some big tyres and GC. Target the weight at 1000-1200, stand back and take the bookings!

+1
And target-able. The Sierra itself was about 1600 kg. Using newer design & newer materials, a 1400 kg machine may be in reach. The Ford Endy is sub-2 tonne. A shorter is possible with this weight ?

[condor]

DHABHAR.BEHRAM : With this in mind, I suggest, let us use this thread to let our thoughts flow on the lines of a "Product / Platform Strategy" based discussion.
DHABHAR.BEHRAM : Can we get a little more specific? Model by model? You may consider mentioning separate comments for following domestic models:

Sumo / Grande / Safari / Aria (all diesel)

@DB sir, the points I would like to mention here are not strategy oriented, but I would like to express a couple of generic points using my Sumo as an example.

Quality issues:
I am seeing this rust spot on the floor of the rear section - just near the rear door/rear right corner. The bolt we see is a body-bolt, and the rusting is in the metal sheet that is supporting the body on the frame.


In the driver seat area (floor between seat & A/B/C pedals, there is another body-bolt. I am seeing rust on the bolt itself.

Holes in the floor:
Again taken in the rear section (floor between both rear wheels). It would be good to seal such holes. This one is the big hole, about 1" in dia. There are few more smaller holes that are covered with stickers !




Joints in Sheet Metal Panels:
The Sumo has a subtle flare around the wheel arch. A feature I just love for the styling it has, and also because it is subtle.

I was cleaning the Sumo, and peeped into the section between the outer & inner body panel sheets, just above the rear wheel.



Was surprised to see a lot of dust inside, between the panels. Investigated further, to realise that there are gaps somewhere, big enough to let in dusty air. The dust I found would be due to this (unseen) hole. I actually poured water into the far end, and it easily flowed out.

Can such gaps be avoided ?



This flare around the wheel means that the outer metal sheet is curved outward. The sheet of metal above the rear wheel is joined to the inner panel and the outer panel. The point where this sheet meets the outer panels is in a way that it creates a crevice. This joint is often weak, and I even saw the two sheets separated in another Sumo.

Suggestion:
Can this joint be strengthened ? Also, can the crevice be avoided, by having the center sheet join the outer body panel at a slightly higher point (about 1-1.5 inches).


I think there are quite a few small improvements that can be done in the vehicles. Some points I have mentioned in my Sumo LTR thread.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Dear Condor - thank you for the Sumo information. I am forwarding it to the concerned persons (Head - QA and Head - Manufacturing and Project Manager) for action. As I regularly visit the assembly line, I will look for this also.

As you own a Sumo, I request you to look at the newly launched Sumo Gold BS4 GX vehicle, drive it and post your findings. This will give us good customer insight.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[condor]

BD sir, thank you !

Further to the points in my post above, I noticed that the paint quality in the interiors is not very good. I am seeing a number of small spots of rust, and I am taking care of the smallers ones myself. When I sand-paper the affected areas, it comes out so easily. I have searched & not found any layer of primer below the paint. For the bigger spots - esp around the body bolts, I am sending it back to A.S.S (I was not able to remove the body-bolts, hence not able to work on those spots).

Relatively, the paint on the outside has been good. My Sumo is parked outside most of the time, and yet has not dulled much.


One more rust prone point is in the same area. I dont know why this hole is there, because it is just closed with a plastic plug, and there is a plastic/fiber trim over this plug. There is no wire running throug that point, and the hole actually opens to the outside.



And about the Sumo Gold - I am afraid to take a TD ! I am afraid that if I take a TD, I will end up thinking more about the lack of power in my TCIC - and I will consequently have to buy a Safari or the Sumo Gold !! ( Help ! )

I really feel the TCIC is a little under-powered, esp with a/c on. I have actually stayed away from driving any of the Dicor's / CR engine SUVs for this reason. My Sumo has otherwise been good, and I cant complain much. Any one would say that 6 yrs is long enough, and I should upgrade. While a better model is a good reason to upgrade, I dont see any reason to give up my simple, reliable TCIC.

_________________
Just in case any one is curious, I would like to clarify that I have not carried any liquids in the cabin and hence spillage would not be the cause of these rust spots.

[Harbir]

I recently rode on a smooth but unpaved farm track in a current safari. I'll pass on my comments about the quality of the interior. What I did like was how low the vehicle is around the occupants making for superb sightlines out. What I noted as a serious negative was how much head toss there was. It was too cushy to be regarded as bumpy at the very low speed we were travelling, but the side to side jolting of the occupants as we swayed inside the cabin spoke of a considerable level of inexperience on the part of the chassis tuning engineers.

In comparison to this the Pajero impresses deeply with how wonderfully its wheels articulate while holding the body much more still, with whatever movement there is being much slower in frequency and much better damped.

I would hazard that the pajero's dampers have a much more sophisticated force-velocity behavior than the Safari's. Its of course a much more expensive vehicle, but its also a very old platform and at the very least, modern tata and mahindra off road capable vehicles in the 10 lac + range should be able to produce the sort of dynamic on road and off road behavior of the ancient pajero.

This is not a trivial task since even the Fortuner doesn't do it, but I would hope that this would not be an excuse for tata to not bother learning how to suspension art needed to make it happen in their own vehicles.

I have not driven a safari in some years so I cannot offer any more comment on the vehicle than that.

apart from this, I have been appalled with the nano and the indigo. The nano I rode in had its rear wheel bearings making a terrific noise at only 2000km. THe indigo owned by someone I know is the most unreliable car that anyone in the family can remember, even taking the era of ambassadors and fiats into account. It has stranded the owner's family on the road 5 times in the last year alone. and that doesn't even address that is the worst car I have driven since the ambassador, with terrible quality, amateurish design and very sloppy mechanical controls and responses


I am contemplating buying a 4x4 and was considering the Thar for a while but was honestly scared off with the shoddy quality (new vehicle's driver side door not opening from the outside, bonnet latch not releasing, huge paint chip coming off the tail gate with rust filling the gap behind it, cut in the rear seat upholstery), the casual level of engineering (offset steering, failure to provide from the factory the ability to retain the heater when fitting an air conditioner, steering column stalks that interfere with the steering and dash from being too close), and the really poor levels of professionalism encountered at the Mahindra dealers.


Both Mahindra and Tata needs to step up quality and dynamic sophistication in a very very very big way. The Aria, Xylo, and XUV500 are still far too deficient

[jaysmokesleaves]

Originally Posted by Harbir

I recently rode on a smooth but unpaved farm track in a current safari. I'll pass on my comments about the quality of the interior. What I did like was how low the vehicle is around the occupants making for superb sightlines out. What I noted as a serious negative was how much head toss there was. It was too cushy to be regarded as bumpy at the very low speed we were travelling, but the side to side jolting of the occupants as we swayed inside the cabin spoke of a considerable level of inexperience on the part of the chassis tuning engineers.

In comparison to this the Pajero impresses deeply with how wonderfully its wheels articulate while holding the body much more still, with whatever movement there is being much slower in frequency and much better damped.

I would hazard that the pajero's dampers have a much more sophisticated force-velocity behavior than the Safari's. Its of course a much more expensive vehicle, but its also a very old platform and at the very least, modern tata and mahindra off road capable vehicles in the 10 lac + range should be able to produce the sort of dynamic on road and off road behavior of the ancient pajero.

This is not a trivial task since even the Fortuner doesn't do it, but I would hope that this would not be an excuse for tata to not bother learning how to suspension art needed to make it happen in their own vehicles.

Excellent comment and very well explained technically. Take the Safari offroad if you want to know what a boat feels like in rough seas. Occupants are sure to knock their heads on the B Pillars, roof, C pillars due the body swaying wildly. There is nothing for the front occupants to hold on to as well. The hand-grip provided on the roof pillar is sure to knock your own head. This hand-grip should be on the A pillar instead.
And honestly the articulation isn't really earth shattering. The ground clearance gives a false sense of articulation.

In addition to that, the 2.5 ton weight and turbo lag doesn't impress. Clutch burning smell in 4x4 operations is 'normal'.
With my 4x4 usage, ive had 3 clutch replacements in 75k kms. Expensive - hell yeah!!

If the Safari tilts sideways to the right at a certain angle, which honestly isn't unsafe to drive in a 4x4 situation, the fuel supply to the engine is cutoff. This angle is normally encountered almost every time you go offroad. You will have to be towed out till the vehicle is properly horizontal for fuel supply to be restored. Im sure the engineers responsible for calibrating this safety measure in the Safari, have never even climbed stairs in their life.
So if you plan to "make your own road" without towing support - watch out.

[nitin.rai]

Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves

In addition to that, the 2.5 ton weight and turbo lag doesn't impress. Clutch burning smell in 4x4 operations is 'normal'.
With my 4x4 usage, ive had 3 clutch replacements in 75k kms. Expensive - hell yeah!!

OT Buddy,
With due respect; I feel the clutch burn is a factor of the driver trying to extract slippage rather than design.
The challenge starts in the head when we believe that a higher rpm will sail us through.

I have been to leh/spiti thrice; Rajasthan dunes offroading and speak out of experience. I have seen quite a few people burn their clutches in slush/sand but my bike has been through some real muck/sand on the original clutch (30k kms till date).

4x4 offroading could be different so feel free to correct me.
I believe its difficult to use only the throttle and not step on the clutch but once you can let it go the clutch doesn't matter; neither does it burn out.

[jaysmokesleaves]

Originally Posted by nitin.rai

OT Buddy,
With due respect; I feel the clutch burn is a factor of the driver trying to extract slippage rather than design.
The challenge starts in the head when we believe that a higher rpm will sail us through.

I have been to leh/spiti thrice; Rajasthan dunes offroading and speak out of experience. I have seen quite a few people burn their clutches in slush/sand but my bike has been through some real muck/sand on the original clutch (30k kms till date).

4x4 offroading could be different so feel free to correct me.
I believe its difficult to use only the throttle and not step on the clutch but once you can let it go the clutch doesn't matter; neither does it burn out.

Nitin you are right about clutch usage which usually occurs when drivers are inexperienced with offroad driving/conditions and tend to or end up slipping the clutch to get keep momentum or otherwise.
I have been driving offroad for over 15 years in various conditions deserts, trails, mud/slushpits and forests in vehicles ranging from Mahindra jeeps, LC's, Scorpio, Safari and Nissans with manual and auto boxes.
My Safari clutch has not burnt out from clutch slippage.
My existing Safari has done about 6-700kms of offroad use in 4x4 mode over the 76k kms on the odometer. That is just about 1% of total mileage covered and im on my 3rd clutch & pressure plate now.
The Safari clutch is not designed for serious 4x4 use and cannot tolerate strenuous and continuous 4x4 usage.
Even I have been offroad to Leh & Spiti, Interior Gj, Many places in Mh, forests of Orissa and bordering forests and mines of Jharkhand, and Chattisgarh, inside Bandhavgarh forest in MP, driven on beaches in Konkan, slush trails in Goa and quite a few other places in India apart form considerable offroading in the deep deserts across the middle east.
Even I speak from experience

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

stand back and take the bookings!

This stand back could last for ages !!

Most of the production would go to the Military, Para Military and Govt. Offices and we would be again depending on the auctioned lots...