[jmvivek]

Originally Posted by svsantosh

Vivek

Get the 8.24" Travel Bolero VLX Rear shock on all 4's for your jeep.

Regds your vinyl query for soft top - NO vinyl material will withstand

PS - Since you are going the full green mile, why not look at some BODA 540s and their permanent hard tops, custom metal solutions like a rally gypsy.

Thanks Santhosh ji.Will check on the shocks... Is 8.24" the max travel you get out of the 540 stock suspension, will it help if we get an extra 1 or 2 inches of shock travel with any other brand.

I allready have a custom hardtop for my gypsyMG410 which was only to ensure that we sustain the heavy rains in Coorg with kids around. From an off-road perspective i like to have the rear side open to have good shoulder view. Hence the need for a soft top. Had an rookie's bad experience with my first ever custom softop that flew away , just 20 minutes from Coorg towards Bangalore at around 5am in the morning on a Dcember chiiler of a day. Had my kids, wify and my dane freeze to hell for the enxt couple of hours since the windshield also had to go down. I fully understand the "not so much of fun with the open top" statement of yours.

I have some ideas as to how to go about with the soft top.Will share once I get all the mechanical tested in person, once the painting and electrical work is over.

Meanwhile need to source the two left & right 3rd row folding Innova seats(Inspired from Jyobeb's thread). Would be happy if anyone can give me leads to the same.

Thanks and Regards

[svsantosh]

Sree - absolutely no idea unless tried - I was recommending from my exp of a NGCS and a totally diff setup. In a hot rod like vivek's only he can experiment patiently and settle for the best setup. That's why I recommended a starting point as 6/5 and change as required.

What do you suggest?

Originally Posted by jmvivek

Thanks Santhosh ji.Will check on the shocks... Is 8.24" the max travel you get out of the 540 stock suspension, will it help if we get an extra 1 or 2 inches of shock travel with any other brand.

Thanks and Regards

I think the 8.24" is the shocker fully in and out difference, the actual wheel travel is more like in feet. But I again leave it to your own experience, it will be fun to fail and learn.

As for other brands, I am not sure, many USA ones claim a much much longer travel, but too many factors are involved to risk a $200-250 purchase to go wrong!

PS - my personal experience is the length of the shocker decides the limit of your articulation. May be the truth also, but it is my own experience. There is a difference.

1) I have tried and seen a axle without both shockers articulates much more but at a very serious possible chance of leafs breaking like twigs - don't try on front or sump is a gonner!

2) I have welded a extra ring on the shock eye to increase a inch to compensate for longer dog bone shackles and they helped a lot, drove around for a year... but as they say

Stock is best!!

[jmvivek]

Originally Posted by sreejeshmp

Hi Vivek,

5 long leafs on front & 6 long + 1 short - 7 leafs on rear with Bolero rear shocks on rear &
with dog bone shackles from Vijay.
Attachment 1107351

- Sreejesh

Dear Sreejesh/Santhosh, Thanks for taking your time to check on and reply to my queries. My current setup with previous axles for the past 2 years was 10 leaves on the rear and 9 on the front. Earlier I had 7 in front and 8 at the rear.
Most of the time either the front left main leaf or the 2nd one or the rear right 2nd leaf used to break off. This used to be the case couple of times till I changes to the 9 and 10 leaves setup.I am not sure whether it was due to the constant drive on rough roads on the ghat sections or due to misuse at my farm in my absence for carrying fertilizer loads.
Anyways with the that new setup I haven't had any probs till date with 4 major OTRS also.

Will check the articulation with the current setup once the painting and electrical work get over and then test out the "5 long leafs on front & 6 long + 1 short - 7 leafs on rear with Bolero rear shocks".Will keep the cambering at 6.5" , if that's see how it behaves. I guess with what Santhosh was mentioning about the 8.24" travel on the shocks this setup should do fine , will test out the same. I am sure you have had this discussed out with Spike, Can you please confirm if this setup holds valid for the the mentioned axles setup on my box type chassis also.

About your note on extending the stabilizer bars, is this advisable? Have u seen this applied anywhere else? Will a stabilizer bar disconnect mechanism/design work better for the purpose of articulation ? I have seen this with the jeep wranglers in Dubai, but I am not sure if this can be done on our 540s/50s. Do share with me your rationale on this regard.

BTW, where is Spike? Helloooo, bist du da ?

Now I just got this from the pictures I collected during my planning phase on current buils. Just wanted to understand what additional benefit do we get with this addon as shown in the pic below. There is one on both sides in the same manner.

Thanks and Regards

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by jmvivek

Will check the articualtion with the current setup once the painting and electricals work get over and then test out the "5 long leafs on front & 6 long + 1 short - 7 leafs on rear with Bolero rear shocks".Will keep it at 6.5" , if thats advisable. I am sure you have had this discussed out with Spike, Can you please confirm if this setup holds valid for the the mentioned axles setup on my box type chasis also.

BTW, where is Spike? Helloooo, bist du da ?

Doch, doch bin ich hier, wenn du willst, kannst du dich gerne per E-Mail melden. Es würde schneller erreichbar.

^^ Yes, I am here. Actually, I do not get much time these days so am not much active here. You have my EMail id, that is a faster way to reach me.

BTW, reg. the leaf spring set up for Armada, I had once helped out Suresh Stephen with his Armada, I think SVS also followed the same. The results are positive, so is the finding of Bolero dampers. I have lost lot of sweat in finding these information, all someday for MY JEEP.

Here are the links -

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...ml#post2000753

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...ml#post2221669

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...ml#post2979091

Spike

PS- My friend Koya (Sreejesh) now knows more about Jeep suspensions than me, you can also contact him.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by jmvivek

Most of the time either the front left main leaf or the 2nd one or the rear right 2nd leaf used to break off. This used to be the case couple of times till I changes to the 9 and 10 leaves setup.I am not sure whether it was due to the constant drive on rough roads on the ghat sections or due to misuse at my farm in my absence for carrying fertilizer loads.
Anyways with the that new setup I haven't had any probs till date with 4 major OTRS also.

Hi vivek,

IMO, for best articulation:

• Remove the front stabilizer rod
• Remove the steering damper
• Fewer leaf springs as possible. (But as you carry load and drive on bad roads, please test and then install)
• Use bolero shocks in all four wheels. They are long enough to give good articulation, and short enough to not stop articulation on the opposite side.
• Cut the front fender if you have 31" tyres
• I somehow also think that a wider solid axle is always better

Can you please confirm if this setup holds valid for the the mentioned axles setup on my box type chassis also.

Yes

.
About your note on extending the stabilizer bars, is this advisable? Have u seen this applied anywhere else? Will a stabilizer bar disconnect mechanism/design work better for the purpose of articulation ?

Please disconnect.

Regards,

Dhanush

[svsantosh]

Originally Posted by jmvivek

About your note on extending the stabilizer bars,

dont even have them on a offroading jeep. (IIRC the SA Thar dude doesnt have it on his IFS too, risky but helps in OTRs)

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Cut the front fender if you have 31" tyres

I did a 2 Inch body lift to accomodate 31" Army tyres. Mind you (vivek) its only a tub/body lift on chassis, not related to G.C at all. I did this to save a fender job (even the rear wheel arch was coming in the way, and I didnt want to end up cutting all 4 fenders!!)

PS - Since you have a MRCBT type steering, a body lift is possible - not much on a old type steering box chassis/tub combo.

[jmvivek]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Doch, doch bin ich hier, wenn du willst, kannst du dich gerne per E-Mail melden. Es würde schneller erreichbar.

^^ Yes, I am here. Actually, I do not get much time these days so am not much active here. You have my EMail id, that is a faster way to reach me.
I have lost lot of sweat in finding these information, all someday for MY JEEP.

PS- My friend Koya (Sreejesh) now knows more about Jeep suspensions than me, you can also contact him.

Spike, danke und Entschuldigungen , mein Fehler Sie ziehen in


These links were there in my collection, but lost this as my harddisk crashed 3 months ago. Will touch base with you as advised. I am allready in discussion with Koya & co.

You can take my jeep anytime when you are down here in India, if you don't mind driving my ol' 89'er in its planned avatar.

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Hi vivek,

IMO, for best articulation:

• Remove the front stabilizer rod
• Remove the steering damper
• Fewer leaf springs as possible. (But as you carry load and drive on bad roads, please test and then install)
• Use bolero shocks in all four wheels. They are long enough to give good articulation, and short enough to not stop articulation on the opposite side.
• Cut the front fender if you have 31" tyres
• I somehow also think that a wider solid axle is always better

YesPlease disconnect.


Dhanush

Thanks... will have to test out the articulation bit on current springs setup and also with the customised fenders with the wider axles.

Originally Posted by svsantosh

dont even have them on a offroading jeep. (IIRC the SA Thar dude doesnt have it on his IFS too, risky but helps in OTRs)


PS - Since you have a MRCBT type steering, a body lift is possible - not much on a old type steering box chassis/tub combo.

Thanks, Will test out the current setup before I opt for a lift. Wanted to understand the roll center with the new body styling/weight and also the body lean and weight transfer. Maybe test this out on a ramp or something. Need a plan on this front. I will have to test this out with the stabilizer rod on and disconnected. I will be knocking doors with people around on this regard once the current strtch of tasks are completed.

Meanwhile I needed some help(post #48) on understanding that particular thingy a shown in my previous post (a swing arm type connection on to the body tub underneath below the driver seat and parallely on the other side also, as to how it would help on articulation/bod lean,if at all.

Also attaching some history on the build of my vehicle to the current state

Steering setup - MRCBT, 120 amps alternator tested to have a peak out on the hot side at around 92.4amps, Rear FFRA setup and connect to the gearbox, and finally the body tub rebuild view from the bottom....have got the primer coated area paintted with the sticky type rubbished compound normally used to paint the underbody of boats(marine primer maybe) before it was fitted back on the chassis. The rest of the area under body will be spray painted.

[mohang_j]

Originally Posted by jmvivek

Meanwhile I needed some help(post #48) on understanding that particular thingy a shown in my previous post (a swing arm type connection on to the body tub underneath below the driver seat and parallely on the other side also, as to how it would help on articulation/bod lean,if at all.

As i remember reading about it while working on my roll cage, they will help to connect the rollcage to the chassis allowing tub and chassis flex to some extent.

[jmvivek]

Originally Posted by mohang_j

As i remember reading about it while working on my roll cage, they will help to connect the rollcage to the chassis allowing tub and chassis flex to some extent.

Hi Mohan ji,

My ambiguity on this , is , will this kind of setup limit the body lean or delay the body lean on weight transfer during extreme articulation, which would be of help, if at all. need to find out more details on this regard.

Thanks and Regards

[jmvivek]

Originally Posted by sreejeshmp

Hi Vivek,

I used 5 long leafs on front & 6 long + 1 short - 7 leafs on rear with Bolero rear shocks on rear & MM pik-up (old 540 front type) front shocks on front. It worked well & I hope you seen how easily That TN66 MM550 XD performed in BAOTR with the new owner on his First OTR with his first Jeep. But never use it as a load carrier .
with dog bone shackles from Vijay.
Attachment 1107351

- Sreejesh

Sreejesh, Intelligent thoughts on the part where you are planning to increase the length of stabilizer bar sway bolt. I was wondering why , when you first posted this pic as my understanding on articulation was different. Did some learning around the same and would want to see your ride in person once you do the same.

Some points that I learned on the way....Still learning

1) Vertical Suspension travel - the distance between the bump stop and the axle is the limit of vertical suspension travel - So choosing my shock absorbers with the right travel will depend upon the entire suspension setup. Its not simply increasing the travel length that would help in articulation.

2)Articulation - independent movement of each side of the axle against each other. Even after one side of the axle has touched the bump stop the other side still goes lower, and the limit to that depends on the stabilizer/anti sway bar, and the stiffness of the spring. - So this is what you are trying to increase Sreejesh, to what extent lets try out.

3) only thing we will have to see is the followong point "The motive of a sway bar is to prevent a vehicle from toppling over at high speeds. ". So to what extend we can increase the length of the stabilizer bar sway bolt to be safe on road without actually having to disconnect the same while offroading.

Correct me , if I am wrong or missing out on anything here.

In that case the following thingy I was querying earlier on, should have something to do with the sway/lean either to increase it or mostly to limit the vehicles lean to the extent of weight transfer desirable from side to side during articulation or on side slopes to prevent rollover from an offroad perspective.

[jmvivek]

Its monsoon time and coupled with my temp handicap, progress on the build is almost at snail pace. Meanwhile some plan that has come up during my brainstorming on the current axle setup that has been done.

My current axle setup is as explained below
Rear axles - DANA 44 FFRA (53” track)
Front axles – DANA 44 OKBJ (57” track)
Gear ratios – Open diffs with 5.38 : 1 (43/8)
OEM Inner axle shaft spline count - 19 front and rear
Pinion shaft diameter: - Need to measure
Pinion shaft splines and spline diameter - Need to measure
Axle Shaft diameter - Rear outer and inner (19 Spline) - axle diameter of around 30mm
Front outer and inner sides (19 Spline) - Need to measure
Ring gear diameter – Need to measure

Rear Axle tube swap done to go with the existing slightly right aligned pumpkin setup to sync with my MM540 transfer case . The guy who has done this has been doing this job since 1980s and regarded to be a professional in this process. I am still not very convinced with the strength of the new setup compared with the original factory finish. Will get to know on this, once tested to the level that I would take this upto.

With an XD3P engine capacity of 2498cc with maximum HP of 76@4500RPM and a max torque of 15.3kgm and with a 5.38 differential ratio, on the reverse gear(in 4wd mode) the peak torque will be in the order of 15.3 * 5.315x2.46/4 x5.38. = 269.1 kgm/axle (Thnx Suresh Stephen sir). The 19 spline axle with 30mm diameter can take about 250 kgm torque. So on the axle shaft side, I should be just about par on the new setup. Hope that the axle shafts doesn't snap during extreme mud plugging with my, open diffs and any one or more wheel stuck. Wayanad and Dhanush, Srreejesh will need your help to test this out once setup. Will touch base with you soon.

Meanwhile , as I understand that on the FFRA axle setup, the axle shaft has flanges at the outer ends, which are connected to the flanged sleeve by means of bolts. There are two taper roller bearings supporting the axle casting in the hub, which take up any side load. Thus in case of Full Float axles , the axle shafts carry only the driving torque. The weight of the vehicle and the end thrust are not carried by them. The weight of the vehicle is completely supported by the wheels and the axle casing. As the axle shafts carry only the driving torque, their failure or removal does not effect the wheels. Thus the axle shafts can be taken out or replaced without jacking up the vehicle. For the same reason vehicle can be towed even with a broken half shaft.

So with this , What my understanding is that the axle tube takes the whole weight of the vehicle and absorbs all types of stresses or end thrust caused by turning, skidding, and pulling . This got me concerned with my new setup on rear axles FFRAs with the tube swap process. After some Googling and good amount of read up, I infer from many of the expert/experienced opinion to have a truss setup done to strengthen the axle tubes and prevent from bending when subjected to extreme situation. With a standard MM550 kerb weight around 1500kgs and a Gross Vehicle weight around 2000kgs, the permissible maximum rear axle load on a bolero FFRA axle tube of 2000 kgs increases my concern on reliability with the tube swap. Hence planning for a custom truss setup for the rear axle tube.

Planned Truss specs and drawing
• 1/4" thick steel truss. What grade of steel should I use? Suresh sir ping…waiting for a response…ping
• Truss reinforcement with bends on a single piece setup and use ¼” gussets where applicable for extra support/strength

[jmvivek]

So excited providing this update on the forum. Its been 5 months since I have seen my jeep in person. Will be off from Bangalore to see this day after tomorrow. Hope things have shaped up as seen in the last photo updates that I received through my good friend , which was shared here earlier on. Hope to get this vehicle out for test drive by this weekend.

Fingers crossed and will be back with more updates, whatever it may turn out to be, soon....

Cheers...

[svsantosh]

Originally Posted by jmvivek

...my understanding is that the axle tube takes the whole weight of the vehicle and absorbs all types of stresses or end thrust caused by turning, skidding, and pulling .......to have a truss setup done to strengthen the axle tubes and prevent from bending

I personally have not seen a Indian jeeps axle housing tube bend/buckle/twist under torque. I have seen (a) prop shaft (b) axle rod itself twist like a wet towel under extreme torque. Worst case I think either the axle would break or the 8 flange bolts would shear. SIMPLEST of failures would occur at the universal star joint (or a more difficult to break yoke/pinion milling).

Gypsy is another story - lot of banana housings have been caused by extreme blore and mumbai gang!!

(Dont stop) you are over engineering your offroader many will say, that too with that puny only-73Bhp engine... but if you are dreaming of a 30Kgm/120+Bhp engine some day, all these will be put to test!

[jmvivek]

Originally Posted by svsantosh

I personally have not seen a Indian jeeps axle housing tube bend/buckle/twist under torque. I have seen (a) prop shaft (b) axle rod itself twist like a wet towel under extreme torque. Worst case I think either the axle would break or the 8 flange bolts would shear. SIMPLEST of failures would occur at the universal star joint (or a more difficult to break yoke/pinion milling).

Santhosh, this is going to be a long post, you had it!

Thanks Santhosh for taking the time to go through my posts and provide with some valuable feedback all the time. Don't have to be very formal and worried on whether you would rub the wrong way. 4 years ago, I did things just because I wanted it rather than thinking about the real application for such acts. As I told somewhere earlier, although I have been driving electronic shift on the fly 4*4s since 2001, I never knew the actual mechanics behind the 4*4H vs L and its application. When I bought this 89'er 540 , I didn't know , which was the H/L out of the two levers sticking out beside the mains.

The last 4 years with my 89'er has really taught me a lot about jeep, and more specifically to 540s/550s and I guess I have spend more time under the jeep and inside the bonnet more than on the seats . I spend almost 70000 kms both on road and off-road in the last 4 years on my 540 in its stock condition and except for the death wobble and leaf spring breakage and the refill of radiator every 200 odd kms or once in a week, whichever comes earlier nothing really bothered me for my farm usage and even for long drives. Maybe , I missed the 5th overdrivewhile on straight expressways, but on the ghats/estates the current setup was perfect.

Since BAOTR2012, I started to think on enhancing the offroad capabilities/reliability on my MM540 and specifically yes on my own MM540. TeamBHP was and is still my main knowledgebase for most of the things that I need to know around MM540 upgrades. THe posts from many seniors, whether young/old was read and understood either the right/hard way and I put-up a list of mechanical mods for stage-1 from the same. This is waht is happening now. The last couple of years abuse on the farm with my guys carrying almost 1.2 tons of salt based fertilizers did take its toll on the body and hence the work on the body. I had an option of straightaway replacing the shell , but I opted out, since I had some specific changes/addons that would facilitate some of my requirements for storage as well as seating on my MM540. So most of the body related changes are more for practical purposes rather than any cosmetics. Just tried to keep the overall appeal in that process. I have gone a bit overboard on some area including painting, but I guess that is part and parcel of such builds. As a Jeeper, I guess I have more balls rather than brains to do this and engage in completely.

The current XD3P engine has been more than sufficient for my offroad usage and I shall go in for an LSD/selectable lockers, whichever suits me well once I test out the current mechanical mods done as per stage1 plan. I guess, for any place where my XD3P would be out of power and stuck, will kit myself with a proper recovery kit to bail me out, which would include rated tow ropes, tow hooks , high lift jack for the time being and then might as well plonk in a winch or two.

Since I have changed to the Bolero FFRA on the rear the end torque/thrust will be on the axles rods/flanges/star joints as you have rightly pointed out. The plan for strengthening the tubes is from the fact that i have swapped the tubes and not really confident with the weld around the housing that is done as I am yet to test out the same under real off-road situations. The strengthening of the tubes was my idea of extra assurance that the weld holds rather than the worry on bending the tubes.

No plans for engine swaps currently. Santhosh were you indicating on a Toyota 14B/T or the likes, I haven't even thought about it. I would love to test such a setup if I get a chance to really feel the off-road prowess and onroad dependability to really start thinking about the same. Thas probably when, I shall start worrying about power to weight ratios and related details.

Just back in from a fully unplanned monsoon drive with family covering 1700kms across three states TN, KL and KA and had the chance of visiting my workshop to check the current state of build being monitored by my good friend. 90% happy with the overall build/progress. Will update the forum on a separate note soon with some pics on the same.

[jmvivek]

Saw my 89'er after 5 months last week during my unplanned drive through the monsoon in KL and KA with family.

The first looks on my Jeep, it did personify the discomfort of being away from its partner for 5 long months. So had to feel her first by touching ad moving around my 89'er before my mind could really come back and set in to the reality around. After-all, every thing on the jeep, was drawn/planned by her partner and her partner was seeing this materialize now and his 89'er getting back in shape with a body build and mechanical upgrade.

Update on the current stage of build.

1) The overall build has been 90% upto expectations. My absence around the finishing time does show up on certain imperfections, but I guess I can live with the same.

2) Fuel tank moved inside, was planned to hold 75litres,occupying the area underneath the passenger side seat in front with a 10 litre reserve tank. This has gone overboard and has now a capacity of 105 litres. My worry is on the fuel drainiage on extreme driver side slopes. Will have to test this and will have to cutout 2 feet from the drivers side, if needed.

3) Door alignment seems perfect.

4) Windshield and connection between A pillar and the Bpillar seems to be done well, keeping in mind the planned 2 piece hard/soft top planned.

5) The indash storage has been enlarged as request, but not given the depth as discussed.

6) Alternator has been setup at the top most point as discussed.

7) Running board above gearbox/tcase area modified as disccussed.

8) Rear drop down door is near expectation, One or two, minor design request not met. Will be fitting a wiremesh/chain system to the rear door to take atleast 150kgs.

9) Rear storage box design has ben perfect . The hinges used is very low quality , need to change the same. Also need to fix the M800/Omni style/innova rear door opening mechanism/lock on the box.

10) Addon dis-connectable safety rod system for front and rear seats to be used while offroading/climbs is missing. Need to add on the same

11) Strict directions not to use metal paste anywhere deviated on one of the custom built fenders. The painter got a piece of mind on this regard.

12) The front bumper was asked to be reinforced. This is missed out

13) Found out finally that the rear has 12 leaves and the front axles are on 10 leaves. The 9 months of workshop life has rusted the leaves badly. Need to really reset the same or keep them as spares and put in new ones. Have some plans on this regard, but I need guidance from a friend who is busy with exams currently. Will take his help when he is free and checkout the viability.

14) Finally good to see the tyres on 16*6.5J scorpio rims and finally going tubeless. The Apollo bullet tubes will move into my spare MT spec tyres soon.

15) OVerhead carrier specified has been completely missed out on the build. Will do this on a separate note when time permits.

Couldn't test out the mechanicals since the battery was down .Mechanic mentioned that things were fine during his test rides. Will have to check this once I get hold of my 89'er EOM latest.

Some pics on the current state of build FYR.