[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Dear all - I have recieved following message: Dear DB Sir, How are you doing? Hope things are fine at your end and now your new company has become pretty much old for you. (but for me it is a new company). First and foremost, I must thank you from the bottom of my heart for making the Thar for an urban guy like me who travels a lot this would be my ideal upgrade. But from what I have understood there should be a lot of things that have to be worked out to make it a powerful car (something similar to your V521). Am planning to buy the Thar by April 2014 and I want to make an earnest list of things that would require attention to.

From the forum I have understood that I need to work on the brakes to make it more effective. And after looking at CPBopanna's car I would be investing on the Italian HT. Can you please let me know any more items that need to be worked on? The main purpose I would want to build is a reliable highway cruiser where I can do 120s all day long, take it to Leh/Ladakh/Nathula Pass and other extreme terrains.
This will also be my daily runner.

The following is the list I have put up. Please share your thoughts so that I can save up money accordingly.

1) Brakes.
2) Replace the stock headlamp with 130/100 by working on fitting a new Relay Kit and wiring kit form Philips.
3) SA Roll Cage.
4) Italian Hard Top.
5) Replace the seats and make it more comfortable.
6) Replace the Leaf Springs and go in for CFL for a smoother ride

Looking forward for your response.

Cheers,

My response is as follows: Customer wants brakes upgrade, no doubt about it. Customer also wants South Africa rollover bar (instead of the nonsense sold now)!

Dear Customer: my replies to your queries are as follows:

1. Yes, brakes upgrade will definitely help you to stop your vehicle properly. Although current brakes meet the law of the land, in my opinion, you should buy the vehicle only if it is fitted with tandem booster, twin pot calipers and bigger vacuum reservoir tank.

2. You may get the headlights upgraded. Please refer my post on page 60 of the "Automotive Lighting" thread on this forum and follow it completely, then only you will get daylight in front of your vehicle.

3. South Africa vehicle has a different roll over bar, it is not a roll cage. It is made in Nasik. Rajith and some other teamBHPians have obtained it through the dealership. I am sure this should not be a problem. Please do not fit the standard roll over bar offered by dealerships, please insist on SA roll over bar only, the other one is not good and the SA one is very good.

4. Well, hard top is your personal decision, go ahead if you like it.

5. Please DO NOT do anything to the seats, especially the front seats, which are of Bolero and are fitted in Bolero position only. People have tried all sorts of things, please don't spend your money here, it will not give you value.

6. Please DO NOT do anything to the leaf springs or the vehicle dynamics will get spoilt. Please don't spend your money here, it will not give you any value.

Also, for God's sake, please do not change wheels and tires. Dynamic rolling radius and wheel offset are very important parameters that you should not monkey around with. There are numerous things floating around in the market for marketing reasons, please remain safe!

As you have mentioned that your main purpose is cruiseability, only Thar CRDe will meet your requirement. You can cruise comfortably all day long @ 120 kmph, no sweat there! It also performs admirably well offroad provided it is driven sensibly.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[Rajith]

hi,

I think the villain here for the current THAR CRDe is V521 and its master..

[ku69rd]

Originally Posted by Rajith

hi,

I think the villain here for the current THAR CRDe is V521 and its master..

Well if you read all threads about Mahindra Thar; you will see a passing reference of the V521. So I think it will be a standard for quite some time to come unless someone builds a thar which will better that.

My 2 Cents
Suppose people are still moaning about a screw falling off, some rattles here and there. Understand the thar is over-priced, might not do what a rebuilt 550 does and has some quality issues but then is there an alternative to this life style car?

People with high qualifications/envious track record compare a 800K car to a car that costs nearly double it. Expects an Inline-4 Engine to match the V6 performance.It leaves me speechless reading their comments and expectations. DB Sir did ask for people to pour in their expectations, but how honest and realistic were they when they started to vent out their list and with some amazing prices to boot.

Again let me not stir a hornet's nest all the guys driving the thar have a good time. *Drive it like you stole it* but be careful as I heard it does not stop where you intend to.
All those who do not then better luck with the Jeep Wrangler.

PS: Am not a fan of M&M nor do I have anything to do with DB Sir.

[fazalaliadil]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

6) Replace the Leaf Springs and go in for CFL for a smoother ride

Looking forward for your response.


My response is as follows:

6. Please DO NOT do anything to the leaf springs or the vehicle dynamics will get spoilt. Please don't spend your money here, it will not give you any value.

Dear Sir,

With due respects, the vehicle dynamics on the stock Thar had already changed compared to the two prototypes that I had done a TD on, at the Nashik plant and on and 521 when it came to Hyderabad (prior to the Thar's launch).

For passenger comfort the rear was softened on the stock Thar, which resulted in excessive bounce at the rear, body roll, loss of control at high speeds plus a very bumpy ride on off roads.

This directly translated into passengers, especially at the rear being thrown up and down even on a small speed breaker, on OTR's and at high speed it is another story.

Here in Hyderabad (as in the rest of the country) there were some who wanted to find a solution to overcome the above, they went in for very expensive imported shocks ect. and some tried the CFL springs...the ride quality and dynamics didn't get better but as you mentioned, it got worse!

After some deliberation we went in for a set of the "Janniah" helper springs (as on my Lynx) with a design change for the Thar, the results were unbelievable.

Many Thar's from here and other parts of the country have undergone the swap from stock springs to Janniah springs and their owners are more than happy as, now their Thar drives flat, very firm and controllable at high speeds even on very undulating secondary roads, body roll at the minimum and an overall improvement in drive quality and dynamics.

Inviting you to test drive one fitted with the below spring set, I will arrange it for you in Hyderabad.
Regards,

[slalom]

Hi Fazal sir , I have learned from the FB 4x4 page ,and you and Shibu's ealier reviews on Tbhp as well that the "Janniah springs made a huge difference , didn't expect it to better than the Bilstein's .
Do you mean to say that after the "Janniah springs " there is no need to go for aftermarket Dampers ?

Kudos to you guys in HYD the " HT " the "springs" the effort to make the Thar close to perfect !!
Makes life easier for guys like me

[powertrain]

Originally Posted by ku69rd

Suppose people are still moaning about a screw falling off, some rattles here and there. Understand the thar is over-priced, might not do what a rebuilt 550 does and has some quality issues but then is there an alternative to this life style car?

Hello ku69rd,
With all due respect, I beg to differ on your above post.

I see nothing "lifestyle" about a car that has, in your own words,
"a screw falling off",
"some rattles here and there",
"is over-priced",
"might not do what a rebuilt 550 does"
"has some quality issues" & most importantly,
"HAS POOR BRAKING EFFICIENCY", in stock form.

I'm sorry but I see nothing "LIFESTYLE" in it. In my view,it's not a LIFESTYLE car, but a LIFE-ENDANGERING car.

People with high qualifications/envious track record compare a 800K car to a car that costs nearly double it.

If M&M can try and save 800 bucks by giving poor brakes, why can't we expect our 800K's money's worth??!!

Last but not the least,both M&M and us, talk about the Thar being lifestyle.
Would someone care to explain,
"WHAT THE H**L IS THE DEFINITION OF LIFESTYLE?"

ku69rd, I hope I've not offended you in any way,apologies if I have!!

Regards,
Varun

[ku69rd]

Originally Posted by powertrain

Hello ku69rd,

ku69rd, I hope I've not offended you in any way,apologies if I have!!

Regards,
Varun

Dear Varun,
You have not offended me in any manner. Whilst I acknowledge thar does have its own limitations nevertheless it is a good lifestyle car.

Now what would you mean by lifestyle?

A lifestyle typically reflects an individual's attitudes, values or world view. Therefore, a lifestyle is a means of forging a sense of self and to create cultural symbols that resonate with personal identity. Not all aspects of a lifestyle are voluntary. Surrounding social and technical systems can constrain the lifestyle choices available to the individual and the symbols she/he is able to project to others and the self. This can be both negative or positive.

With the thar, you might have seen it being advertised as a lifestlye car...what does that mean? With reference to the above paragraph one can alter/modify the car to suit his style/personal identity. Why Thar now into the equation? because this is a car which can take in any modification that you wanted to do. It is a bare-metal vehicle if you look at it. Has a competent engine, 4*4 gives the option to go anywhere (places where you would not go in your Sedan). What it lacks is something that you have to spend money to get it up there.

Hope am able to make you see my point? Am not keen if you agree or disagree to it.

[fazalaliadil]

Originally Posted by slalom

didn't expect it to better than the Bilstein's .
Do you mean to say that after the "Janniah springs " there is no need to go for aftermarket Dampers ?

Kudos to you guys in HYD the " HT " the "springs" the effort to make the Thar close to perfect !!
Makes life easier for guys like me

Dear Slalom,

Guys with Bilstien and Ironman gas shocks took a big hit and gained nothing, on the contrary made their rides more softer.
There is no need to change anything apart from the Springs, longer and more solid shackles as shown on the springs and longer U bolts (below) everything else is stock!
Regards,

[roji]

Hi Fazal sir,

Is this springs set available for MM540, and how much would cost?

Regards,

Roji

[slalom]

Thank you Fazal sir !
This is quite reassuring , and moreover those Dampers are quite expensive .
cheers !

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by Rajith

hi, I think the villain here for the current THAR CRDe is V521 and its master.

Dear Rajith - well said! Let me digress a little into Hindi movies! You must have seen the original "Agneepath" (1990) and "Satte pe Satta" (1983) of my all time favorite actor Amitabh Bachchan! The dialogues were as follows:

Agneepath - Inspector Gaitonde - "tum kabhi nahin sudhroge" / Vijay Dinanath Chouhan - " kayko sudhrega - yeh duniya bahut bigdi hui hai Gaitonde sahab - is duniya mein zinda raheneke liye bagada hua hona bahut zaroori hai - jo sudhar gaya woh gaya - oopar - maalum!

Satte pe Satta - Amjad Khan - "aap leftie hain - aap apne ulte haath ka istemaal karte hain" - "Amitabh Bachchan" - "haan, mere baba kaha karte the ki, duniya ko agar seedha rakhna ho, to ulta haath istemaal karna chahiye".

Customers, please assert yourselves! I am seeing so much "talk" but when it comes to the crunch, there is no "walk the talk". Start at least now please, "tem aa gaya"!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[iMASKARAN]

DHABHAR.BEHRAM
6. Please DO NOT do anything to the leaf springs or the vehicle dynamics will get spoilt. Please don't spend your money here, it will not give you any value.

I am no technical geek. I brought the Thar, simply because, once in my lifetime I wanted to drive a Jeep. What I have done to the Thar will come in a separate thread, once I am done with whatever I have to. Mind you, I am a “sensible” driver practically no OTRs (I don’t have deep pockets – I was recently told at the M&M workshop the axle costs 30K each- which promptly killed any desire that I had for hardcore OTRs). So this is my primary daily drive, used sometimes for my holidays, and mainly used by self, mother (aged 70), my wife and kid (2 years). My kid doesn’t touch our Figo or wagon R, the only vehicle he will ride is “Baba’s Jeep”. He loves it. My mom loves it as its easy for her to embark and disembark and has an “egalitarian” view of the world from the cockpit – “its not like a bowl like other cars”… she says. My wife…well no comments, she feels that I give more attention to the jeep than our relationship and 5% of the attention if given to the jeep if given to the relationship….. and blah blah blah.. I had mentioned it in one of my previous posts in this thread.

Now when I first brought the Thar, I noticed, that at every Gol Chakkars (delhi is full of them and Ghanchakkars who don’t know which way to turn at the Gol Chakkars), I turned with the jeep in my seat, and every time I had to brake at the Antics of a Ghanchakkar, I felt I will topple one day very soon. The Anguish was compounded, when my Ipad, mobile and other knick Knacks went flying at a sudden brake application (which in Delhi you have to). And not to mention on bad roads, time and again I felt that I would be thrown out of the Driver’s seat inspite of the seat belt. And not to mention the rebukes I got from co passengers. My Mom, used to clutch at the handle on the dash to and squirm every time I went on a bad road or took a turn. I had taken the Jeep to Landsdowne with two senior citizen, the kid, the wife and it was James Bond’s favorite, shaken, stirred, whisked, whipped and tossed. For the BangaBandhus in the forum – it was a Jhalmurir Tin. I had it.

So, what next –Fox Shocks from PA topped the list- at 90K fo four. Biliestien ½ of that and out of reach, no customer report (though I recently had one and it says it’s a sheer waste of money). Ironman – within reach and again no customer feedback. Then came TJM – again considerable option but no customer feedback. My mediocre mind, always got anguished at the question, what it the stuff goes Kaput and I am out of warranty – do I need to invest another 30-40k to get my ride back? Mind you I have nothing against these products, but, I needed to test it out and in my own way. I would love to do that some time in the future.

fazalaliadil
Many Thar's from here and other parts of the country have undergone the swap from stock springs to Janniah springs and their owners are more than happy as, now their Thar drives flat, very firm and controllable at high speeds even on very undulating secondary roads, body roll at the minimum and an overall improvement in drive quality and dynamics.

Then one day Fazal Ali Saab, in one of the Facebook Forums posted the Janniah Leaf Springs. I was impressed; I had seen a similar set up in one of the Army Gypsies long time back, belonging to a CO who was very particular about the “Jhol” and bouncy nature of the Vehicle.

So, the conspiracy started between Fazal Saab and self. We exchanged notes and I was assured after seeing a Video Clip of the Famous Lynx doing some serious off-roading and zapped at the articulation. This is it. I decided.

So, the Leaf Springs that Fazal Saab has posted in the Quote are mine. They came all the way from Hyderabad, landed at Delhi. I got to know that there existed a place called Bakoli in Delhi NCR, from where I picked up the Springs and then straight away took it to the my most trusted Mechanic, who worked at a MASS workshop and then shifted to a M&M Automart India Workshop. Fazal Saab had sent me a “How to Fix it Video”, which I Ipadded my mechanic and after having seen it he nodded and said “ho jayga sir”. I knew I was home. The fixture is simple, but convincing him to do the job was the most difficult part. He does not agree to do stuff which he feels is out of turn/out of sync or could be detrimental to the vehicle. Like, I had approached him with the idea of changing the Seats of the Thar to some better ones like the Innovas or imported ones available from Mayapuri. He said “ Sir yeh mein nahin karunga. Company ek tarike se Seat fix kaar ke di hui hai, iske saath mein cherkhani nahin karunga. Haan, ek cheez mein suggest kar sakta hun, kisi upholstery wale se thora seat mein padding dalwa lijiye. Up ko support bhi ho jayga aur comfort bhi”. I did just that and I am enjoying the ride. I had decided from the very beginning I wont go to my Mahindra dealership and their workshop.

The job was done and spent ½ a day at the workshop. The new Springs weigh about 64 Kilos. The older one weighed about 55. So I put 10 kilos of extra flab on the Thar.

Now for the feedback:

1. Do I turn with the jeep at Golchakkars or turns? – NO. I DONT. The “Jhol”, Rock & Roll all gone. It is firmly grounded. My Mom doesn’t clench her teeth and the grab the Handle Bar on the dashboard at these turns nowadays.
2. Does the Jeep heave when you swerve or brake suddenly? – I am a safe driver. But I could not resist the pleasure of weaving on an empty road at 6 o clock in the morning. I did 60-70 kmph and it felt as if I was riding a Bike.
3. What about the bumps and uneven bounce on bad patches of the road ?– At slightest undulation with the OE Leaf Springs, I used to hear groans and rebukes from the passengers behind. I don’t hear it now. Going over the lesser bumps in my locality at a little speed, I used to jump with the vehicle. I don’t now. There was a Shudder and Judder the jeep used to do on crossing Bumps at slow speeds has miraculously gone. I don’t feel the fright of being thrown out of the Window with my seat belts on.
4. What is the overall on road behavior? – The ipad, mobile, knick knaks etc stay firmly planted on the co driver seat, even at sudden braking. Yesterday, I brought back 2 mid sized flowerpots with plants at the rear (with a little support of stones) intact. Peak office time driving at a little speed since I was running late – I wouldn’t have dared to on OE Leaf Springs unless I had some tie down ropes straps etc. I had taken the jeep to some very bad patches of the Road/offroading tracks, used by Terrain Tigers and NIOC in Gurgaon and to Damdama Lake - at a “sensible driving” I didn’t feel much strain or jerks. My weekly grocery at the rear doest gets tossed up these days. And passengers don’t complain about the sudden braking and odd bumps.
5. Any issues faced so far?- in the last month and half absolutely no.
6. Compliments received – A young NIOC Member who owns a Thar and stays in my locality, with whom I did a test drive on some non existent roads in my locality said – “Sir this feels like a Fortuner”
7. Last but not the least- I met a chap in Gurgaon the other day and drives a Thar. I showed him my leaf spring setup and he showed me his. He had removed 2 Pattes each from his rear leaf springs and claims his vehicle has a smooth drive and I should have done just that instead of spending money. However, his jeep stands up on the front and dips in the rear. I wouldn’t have liked that stance in my Jeep. Carbon Fiber Leaf Springs – I have my reservations. The look of the thing makes me panic. The thought that occurs is can it take the heavy weight of the Thar? Along with Loads? Users differ – to each his/her own. My Rating for the Janniah Leaf Springs is a 10 on 10. I am happy.

Fazal Saab, I owe the ride to you and thank you for that.

Forum Members – The Thar is an Indigenous Indian Jeep. It is a Company made Juggad. I would bow to that rather than to the job done by some obnoxious mechanic from the likes of Mayapuri, who, tries to palm of a crap filled rust buckets to ignorant users like me, with bolts falling apart as soon as you take it out from the garage. Guys, many of us started shaving with Wilkinson single blades and now use Gillette Mach What Nots. Improvement is a part of life. Yes, there is no denial of the fact that the Thar could be improved. BD and his team had done whatever they could to give an aspiring me and their kinds, a Jeep, which they don’t have to build from the scratch, spend anxious moments while on the Road pondering over reliability or get frustrated by innumerous visits to the neighborhood mechanic or have an illicit love affair with them. At least I have the choice and can rave and rant at the dealership, at the company with 90% chances of getting the rectifications done in such cases with the Thar.

I have said it in the Thread before – a lot of indigenous industry – the Bells and Whistles Industry, has grown around the Thar. Hardtops, Fender Flares etc etc. and spread across the country. This provides livelihood (however miniscule) to people. I am glad to contribute in this activity and at a reasonable price get the desired element to enhance my vehicle.

However, at the cost of repeating an umpteenth time – M&M while upgrading the Thar should keep the existing customers in Mind. The upgrades must be made available to the customer at a reasonable cost and bolt on jobs at the Dealership workshops. Mr Mahindra you will be blessed by me and many of us.

Phew!! That was a long post and hope you have the patience to read though it.


Photographs of how it was done are posted. It’s a bit grainy but I hope it gives the sense.

[slalom]

The report was like a melodrama which had a very happy ending , a whole lot of happenings from things flying to people about to fly.

cheers to Janniah !

Could you please PM me the cost of the springs .

Enjoy the smoother ride !

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by iMASKARAN

A lot of indigenous industry – the Bells and Whistles Industry, has grown around the Thar.

Dear iMASKARAN - reference your quote, we knew this when we did this vehicle. This platform "spawns" this business, because this vehicle appeals more to people who derive satisfaction in tinkering with it even when there is nothing wrong with it. Unfortunately, many people, including people in this thread, just do not want to understand and appreciate it. So, thank you for putting it across nicely.

Further, I need you to understand one thing on the leaf springs. The Thar CRDe leaf springs and rear shock absorbers are of Bolero VLX. These are production parts, the springs are made in Baroda. These are made in huge quantity, with all quality assurance processes in place. We have not done any change for Thar. Even the silent block bushes are same, fitted in the same position as Bolero VLX. If your vehicle dances like a ghanchakkar at golchakkars in Delhi, you must get them changed under warranty. If you do that, then the dealer sends them to the warranty garage and they get analyzed. I do not see any reason except production variability for these springs misbehaving in your vehicle.

I can't help but add (as usual) - MH01V521 did not have production springs! It had springs of another model vehicle which is also in production. Don't even try to interchange, chassis mounting point is different, those springs will not fit in production vehicle. That chassis was custom made. Handling was optimized for the tires used. I had touched 165 kmph, it was a torpedo, dead stable. I am attaching a photograph of Deepak (DKG) driving it in Hyderabad, just look at the stance, angle of approach and departure (discount the silly rear bumperettes, please)! Enjoy! .

Dear Fazal - I am very happy to see that you have delighted the customer with your product. Can you please find out the load v/s deflection curve of your springs and compare them to Bolero VLX springs? You need an arbor press with a pressure gage. I want to learn, hence requesting!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS - you can see the South Africa rollover bar and the front axle flange!

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Further, I need you to understand one thing on the leaf springs. The Thar CRDe leaf springs and rear shock absorbers are of Bolero VLX. These are production parts, the springs are made in Baroda. These are made in huge quantity, with all quality assurance processes in place. We have not done any change for Thar. Even the silent block bushes are same, fitted in the same position as Bolero VLX. If your vehicle dances like a ghanchakkar at golchakkars in Delhi, you must get them changed under warranty. If you do that, then the dealer sends them to the warranty garage and they get analyzed. I do not see any reason except production variability for these springs misbehaving in your vehicle.

I can't help but add (as usual) - MH01V521 did not have production springs!

The first time I had to hit the brakes hard in my Thar at 90kph I was appalled at what the backend was doing, rocking from side to side very fast and threatening to take the front end with it. This was on a moderate down slope on a relatively smooth road. Only old age and slow reflexes stopped me from over steering to correct. I just put the ole death grip on the wheel and let my massive arms, bigger than Arka's and much better looking, act as steering dampers.

Another victim of "Production Variability" ????