[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by desertfox

THE THAR GOES OFFROAD

1. On a particular section of about 2 KM of serrated ruts i tried the 2nd gear crawl but it did not work in this vehicle but slipping it in 4H and 1st gear it works fine. The Thar can steadily and very comfortably slide over the ruts in this mode one can take his foot off the gas pedal it will slide by just controlling the steering like an Auto transmission vehicle. The ground clearance is adequate no problems in this mild sort of off roading where the terrain was mud tracks, ploughed fields, jungle scrub, bad rutted hill tracks, a bit of dirt top not sand really mud finer powder mixed with clay, and some slush.

2. What I missed most was a 12 volt DC lighter socket to run my spotlight. Need to install one in it. Dhabhar Bhai through which circuit should I take this with a Minda relay installed or should I pull it direct. The Spotlight is 3 million lux with a 100W Krypton DC bulb. The smaller one is 800,000 lux with a 55 W bulb.

3. And as for me, besides my own Thar, I have made four other people purchase Thar on my recommendation. Three delivered, fourth one this week and recommended one more to a guy I just I met on the road yesterday who has an Italian wife who is a keen offroader!

4. As for me I kind of like it and drive it everyday, all my other cars are rested these days and the drivers free to play cards in my buildings basement.

Dear Shahidbhai (and all, if I may so graciously indulge with your permission) - I have numbered your comments. My replies are as follows:

1. Yes, I know, the driveline ratios match this type of work output "very nicely". I am not not typing "perfectly" because there was only one black colored vehicle in that category. Make your vehicle like that and then experience the exponential jump in performance. Then please give your comments! For reference, Samurai has already given the comment "the Thar just took off"! .

2. Please refer my comments on page 60 of the "automotive lighting" thread in this forum. Everything is given there. If you follow it, you will get daylight. If you don't follow it, the wiring harness will burn! .

3. Thank you!

4. When customers understand the value of "retro is in vogue" and ask for such products, there will be more and more vehicles for drivers to play cards in! See the Enfield Bullet story, now there is even a film called "Bullet Raja" now.

SIMPLICITY IS THE ULTIMATE SOPHISTICATION! ENJOY!

.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[Avigo71]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Shahidbhai (and all, if I may so graciously indulge with your permission) - I have numbered your comments. My replies are as follows: 1. Yes, I know, the driveline ratios match this type of work output "very nicely". I am not not typing "perfectly" because there was only one black colored vehicle in that category. Make your vehicle like that and then experience the exponential jump in performance. Then please give your comments! For reference, Samurai has already given the comment "the Thar just took off"! . 2. Please refer my comments on page 60 of the "automotive lighting" thread in this forum. Everything is given there. If you follow it, you will get daylight. If you don't follow it, the wiring harness will burn! . 3. Thank you! 4. When customers understand the value of "retro is in vogue" and ask for such products, there will be more and more vehicles for drivers to play cards in! See the Enfield Bullet story, now there is even a film called "Bullet Raja" now. SIMPLICITY IS THE ULTIMATE SOPHISTICATION! ENJOY! . Best regards, Behram Dhabhar

Dear Mr. Dhabhar,
I have just gotten the Thar with new features. There was a strange humming vibration I was getting at speeds between 80-100kmph. NBS & Milestone tried everything to get rid of it from putting original rims instead of the alloys I had put, to changing the propeller shaft, to checking wheel bearings etc. Finally on my request they replaced the fixed flanges with the Auto locking hubs and voalla! The vibration disappeared & as a bonus the steering became lighter!
I want to know if the fixed flange system is a faulty system or was I unlucky? Were there any real benefits of it over the Auto locking hubs? Sir, with your experience I would like to know whether am I better off now or was it better to have the fixed flanges ?? And according to you which is the best system to have out of Manual, Auto & fixed flange?

[nbk.0707]

Originally Posted by Avigo71

Dear Mr. Dhabhar,
I have just gotten the Thar with new features. There was a strange humming vibration I was getting at speeds between 80-100kmph. NBS & Milestone tried everything to get rid of it from putting original rims instead of the alloys I had put, to changing the propeller shaft, to checking wheel bearings etc. Finally on my request they replaced the fixed flanges with the Auto locking hubs and voalla! The vibration disappeared & as a bonus the steering became lighter!
I want to know if the fixed flange system is a faulty system or was I unlucky? Were there any real benefits of it over the Auto locking hubs? Sir, with your experience I would like to know whether am I better off now or was it better to have the fixed flanges ?? And according to you which is the best system to have out of Manual, Auto & fixed flange?

Hi Avigo,
Till the masters speak. I'll take the liberty of sharing some knowledge with you in this regard, The fixed flange system is not faulty and it is the best when it comes to reliability of the 4X4 vehicle transmission, there are a number of instance reported by our fellow BHPians where the Locking hubs gave way & to top it all its dirt cheap as compared to Auto/ Manual locking hubs.

The locking hubs function to disengage the front wheels from the axles, thereby disabling the unnecessary rotation of axles, Differential, drive shaft (AFAIK atleast the pinion in the T-case :: Experts please enlighten me on this point ). This motion of all these components creates this humming sound when the vehicle is in 4X2 mode (80-90% of the average life of the vehicle), due to the additional load on the vehicle roll some reduction in the FE was also experienced. This was the main cause which drove the people in the 1970's and 1980's change to 4X2 vehicles (I have seen it myself in some of my family jeeps).

The best option for you depends on the usage you intend with your vehicle, Go for fixed flange if you are a serious mud plugger with lots of slush and water crossings and if your intended usage is solely offroading and not highway cruising or city drives. If your usage is city drives and highway cruising and some offroading go for manual hubs if you don't mind getting out of the vehicle every now and then. Auto locking hubs will too work fine but electrical components DO FAIL when subjected to water.

So choose wise and be happy, Enjoy your vehicle.

Shahid Sir, My apologies for this long post on your thread , BTW how is your affair with the Thar progressing.

[desertfox]

Niggles and issues start emerging. The left side zipper of the canopy not working now, stuck in the top position. Hope more surprises dont come too soon.

[samwagon]

Originally Posted by nbk.0707

Hi Avigo,
Till the masters speak. I'll take the liberty of sharing some knowledge with you in this regard, The fixed flange system is not faulty and it is the best when it comes to reliability of the 4X4 vehicle transmission, there are a number of instance reported by our fellow BHPians where the Locking hubs gave way & to top it all its dirt cheap as compared to Auto/ Manual locking hubs.

The locking hubs function to disengage the front wheels from the axles, thereby disabling the unnecessary rotation of axles, Differential, drive shaft (AFAIK atleast the pinion in the T-case :: Experts please enlighten me on this point ). This motion of all these components creates this humming sound when the vehicle is in 4X2 mode (80-90% of the average life of the vehicle), due to the additional load on the vehicle roll some reduction in the FE was also experienced. This was the main cause which drove the people in the 1970's and 1980's change to 4X2 vehicles (I have seen it myself in some of my family jeeps).

The best option for you depends on the usage you intend with your vehicle, Go for fixed flange if you are a serious mud plugger with lots of slush and water crossings and if your intended usage is solely offroading and not highway cruising or city drives. If your usage is city drives and highway cruising and some offroading go for manual hubs if you don't mind getting out of the vehicle every now and then. Auto locking hubs will too work fine but electrical components DO FAIL when subjected to water.

So choose wise and be happy, Enjoy your vehicle.

Shahid Sir, My apologies for this long post on your thread , BTW how is your affair with the Thar progressing.

AFAIK there is nothing electrical about auto locking hubs. They are purely mechanical and are auto in the sense that they lock the wheels to the axles automatically when the axles start turning(4d mode). And disengage when they sense that the wheels are driving the axles(2wd) in reverse.

That apart,what you said about reliability is true. Fixed flanges are most reliablefollwoed by manual locking one and least reliable are auto hubs especially for extreme of road conditions.

[nbk.0707]

Originally Posted by samwagon

AFAIK there is nothing electrical about auto locking hubs. They are purely mechanical and are auto in the sense that they lock the wheels to the axles automatically when the axles start turning(4d mode). And disengage when they sense that the wheels are driving the axles(2wd) in reverse.

That apart,what you said about reliability is true. Fixed flanges are most reliablefollwoed by manual locking one and least reliable are auto hubs especially for extreme of road conditions.

Thanks samwagon,

I stand corrected, I always thought that these hubs are locked based on a electrical trigger. My apologies. Thanks for your guidance.

[desertfox]

Not in this case. In the scorpio too it is the same part in the 4x4 version. Method of engagement is different, electrical or manual.

[samwagon]

Originally Posted by desertfox

Not in this case. In the scorpio too it is the same part in the 4x4 version. Method of engagement is different, electrical or manual.

Desert fox, the electrical part of the 4WD system in scorpio is only the BW tranny which uses electrically operated actuators to shift between 2H/4H/4L modes whereas in the Thar a manual BW tranny is used as you are well aware.

The auto locking hubs on both the scorpio and thar are purely mechanical parts and the automatic locking or unlocking is achieved purely in the way the mechanism is designed to engage which depends on 'what' is driving 'what'. A very simple analogy would be a bicycle in which the rear sprocket engages the pedals if the pedals are turned by the rider. But the rear sprocket disengages the pedals if the rider is just coasting down a slope I.e. The wheels don't turn the pedals.
The reason for failure of both manual and auto locking hubs is mostly ingress of water or mud which causes the mechanism/spring to rust and jam. With a manual system you can still force the system to engage by applying force and thus get back to safer ground. But in an auto locker you are basically stuck. fixed flanges offcourse don't have any of such issues.
PS. apologies if I understood you incorrectly and lectured about stuff you already know.

[Avigo71]

Originally Posted by nbk.0707

Hi Avigo, Till the masters speak. I'll take the liberty of sharing some knowledge with you in this regard, The fixed flange system is not faulty and it is the best when it comes to reliability of the 4X4 vehicle transmission, there are a number of instance reported by our fellow BHPians where the Locking hubs gave way & to top it all its dirt cheap as compared to Auto/ Manual locking hubs. The locking hubs function to disengage the front wheels from the axles, thereby disabling the unnecessary rotation of axles, Differential, drive shaft (AFAIK atleast the pinion in the T-case :: Experts please enlighten me on this point ). This motion of all these components creates this humming sound when the vehicle is in 4X2 mode (80-90% of the average life of the vehicle), due to the additional load on the vehicle roll some reduction in the FE was also experienced. This was the main cause which drove the people in the 1970's and 1980's change to 4X2 vehicles (I have seen it myself in some of my family jeeps). The best option for you depends on the usage you intend with your vehicle, Go for fixed flange if you are a serious mud plugger with lots of slush and water crossings and if your intended usage is solely offroading and not highway cruising or city drives. If your usage is city drives and highway cruising and some offroading go for manual hubs if you don't mind getting out of the vehicle every now and then. Auto locking hubs will too work fine but electrical components DO FAIL when subjected to water. So choose wise and be happy, Enjoy your vehicle. Shahid Sir, My apologies for this long post on your thread , BTW how is your affair with the Thar progressing.

Samwagon, does this mean that all fix flanges will have that humming vibration at 80-100 kmph ? So when I ask "is fixed flange a faulty system" , my question is not aimed at its performance in off-roading, it's asking whether it's always going to be "faulty" at highway cruising speeds.

[vivekjayasheel]

Doesn't humming vibration of any kind automatically point to an untrue (bent) prop-shaft or faulty bearing?

[samwagon]

Originally Posted by Avigo71

Samwagon, does this mean that all fix flanges will have that humming vibration at 80-100 kmph ? So when I ask "is fixed flange a faulty system" , my question is not aimed at its performance in off-roading, it's asking whether it's always going to be "faulty" at highway cruising speeds.

Very good question with no easy answer. Well a fixed flange system is bound to be noisier as compared to a free wheeling one because of additional moving components but only just a bit noisier and not too appreciably.
Some people including self argue that free wheeling hubs is good thing because it saves on useless rotation of front shaft components in 2wd mode which translates to savings in terms of component life and FE to a very small extent. But the other side of the story is that most components are so over designed, saving of their life is irrelevant. Also, FE saving is very Marginal probably a few bucks over 1000 k. The advantage is rock solid reliability especially when you are stuck in a soup. The noise is not supposed to be bothersome. So the fixed flange system by design is not faulty.
But in your case the problem of bothersome humming noise maybe due to misalignment or imbalanced shaft. You can check by test driving another new Thar with fixed flange.

[desertfox]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Shahidbhai (and all, if I may so graciously indulge with your permission) - I have numbered your comments. My replies are as follows:

1. Yes, I know, the driveline ratios match this type of work output "very nicely". I am not not typing "perfectly" because there was only one black colored vehicle in that category. Make your vehicle like that and then experience the exponential jump in performance. Then please give your comments! For reference, Samurai has already given the comment "the Thar just took off"! .

2. Please refer my comments on page 60 of the "automotive lighting" thread in this forum. Everything is given there. If you follow it, you will get daylight. If you don't follow it, the wiring harness will burn! .

3. Thank you!

4. When customers understand the value of "retro is in vogue" and ask for such products, there will be more and more vehicles for drivers to play cards in! See the Enfield Bullet story, now there is even a film called "Bullet Raja" now.

SIMPLICITY IS THE ULTIMATE SOPHISTICATION! ENJOY!

.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

What was different in the off road test THAR proto type ?

I assume it had a CRDe engine same as scorpio the 2600 cc one.
Which gearbox
Which axles
What were the gear ratios and final drive ratios
Was it the same Scorpio front suspension ?
Was a lift kit used ?
Was the Chassis different a later MM550 type with a K member ?
Were tow points more solid, directly fixed to the chassis ?
Was there no low hanging catalytic convertor ?
The rear license plate would be higher for sure.
Were there no running boards on the sides ? A step or a tube side step ?
Were there less complications in the canopy rib cage ? The Thar's is a direct lift off from MM550.
What size wheels and tyres were used ?
Was there an engine top mounted intercooler ?
Was the dashboard different from the present Bolero derivative ?


From What I saw and observed in old threads particularly EXXAMM 2010 ( July 2010 )

[desertfox]

From What I saw and observed in old threads particularly EXXAMM 2010 ( July 2010 )

It MH 01 V 521 had ;

A snorkel intake fitted onto it.
It had JK tyres ( Elanzo ) which would have been an O/E test request
It had the old Scorpio CRDe engine, 2600 cc not the present Thars 2500 cc engine
It had the older MM550 radiator not the present one
It had no fender flares or footboards
Ground clearance was much like an MM550
It had MM550 steel rim wheels
There was a pintle hook so was there a K member ?
Rear tow point was poor, welded which will fly off in a snatch pull
It had permanent fixed flange hubs
Canopy was in developmental stage it was an MM540 canopy on it
No fuel tank lid then such great refinements came later
Lesser no. of leafs in the rear leaf spring.

Other real technical issues I can get only from you Dhabhar Bhai.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by desertfox

From What I saw and observed in old threads particularly EXXAMM 2010 (July 2010), MH 01 V 521 had;

1. A snorkel intake fitted onto it.
2. It had JK tyres ( Elanzo ) which would have been an O/E test request
3. It had the old Scorpio CRDe engine, 2600 cc not the present Thars 2500 cc engine
4. It had the older MM550 radiator not the present one
5. It had no fender flares or footboards
6. Ground clearance was much like an MM550
7. It had MM550 steel rim wheels
8. There was a pintle hook so was there a K member ?
9. Rear tow point was poor, welded which will fly off in a snatch pull
10. It had permanent fixed flange hubs
11. Canopy was in developmental stage it was an MM540 canopy on it
12. No fuel tank lid then such great refinements came later
13. Lesser no. of leafs in the rear leaf spring.

Other real technical issues I can get only from you Dhabhar Bhai.

Dear Shahidbhai - As usual I have numbered your queries. My reply is as follows:

1. Yes please, it was a perfectly functional snorkel.
2. Yes please, the tires were JK Elanzo 245/75R16, these were production tires as used on the assembly line.
3. Let's just say that somebody tried something "creative" to enable the vehicle to remain in the workshop on "important days in June 2010", therefore we had to do something drastic in the second shift one day before the "important days of June 2010". Don't make me say more, decency prevents me from going further. We (Spike and I) left for Panvel at 2AM that night. The rest is history. The vehicle's performance spoke for itself!
4. No please. It was a production cross flow radiator but not of MM540.
5. Fender flares and footboards have no place on the vehicle for the terrain for which it was prepared. Same for spare wheel and bumpers also.
6. It had more than adequate ground clearance to go over and spin a big rock which I know Sharath has recorded for posterity.
7. No please, it had Scorpio production 6.5J*16 size steel wheels. You own a Scorpio, so I wonder why you ask.
8. No please, complete rear end is of Bolero VLX which has the underfloor mounted fuel tank so it can't have a "K" member. I wonder why you ask.
9. No please, rear tow point was not poor, nor was it welded. It was same as supplied to MM540 army NGCS.
10. Yes please, hubs were from a competitor vehicle, I have explained the detailed assembly process from the product engineering point of view elsewhere on the forum.
11. No please, it was a Thar canopy in alternate color. I had black, burgandy red and light cream canopies in the portfolio. They would have looked killer (a la Wrangler) with corresponding body colors but it was "not my decision". Finally, only black made it into production. I wonder why nobody is doing this change in the field.
12. Fuel tank lid happened as a running change as agreed.
13. The suspension was "tuned for snap-shot handling", especially single & double lane change performance. Extreme Power (Alan) experienced it when he was following me, coming down INS Shivaji in June 2010 and Viper (Jignesh) and V-16 (Gogi paaji) experienced it between Panvel and Wadkhal Naka in August 2010. Please read their remarks. This is also history. I leave it to you to continue to speculate on what was done to achieve snap-shot handling!

Now you make your vehicle like this, then only you will unleash the full potential of this platform. Enjoy!

.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[desertfox]

Dhabhar Bhai I bought one more Thar Yesterday, of the same colour for my brother.
This is the new one with twin tandem booster for brakes. Mine is the single which will be replaced by RR auto in a few days once they have the parts.

The new canopy bindings ( cross ) has no kich kich sound.

So far on recommendation I have sold seven Thars recommending to people on the street and they are quoting my name and buying Thars!

My scorpio is a VLX 4WD it has OE alloy wheels not the ones on your prototype Thar.

I assume the pintle hook was not bolted directly to the chassis then, it was a weak point ?
What about gear box, axles and final drive ratio ? Were they same as production Thar CRDe ?

I will start making my Thar once the National Shooting competition ends on December 14 these days I train all day at the shooting range.

With best regards

Shahid.