[finiteinjustice]

One more thing.

AC was quite good even when operating at 1, chill could be felt by those sitting near the rear door.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

The point I am making is that with today's direct injection (Not even commonrail) it is no great shakes to make 100bhp/26KGM Torque from a 2.6 Liter Engine. A good engine is not only about Torque, there is a driveablity factor also, which to me includes being able to safely pass a vehicle when going uphill. Anyway each to his own, I cannot live with under powered wheezy engines any more. If it was just for Torque, I would just get a Tractor and be done with it. I need a balance between hills and good driveability on open roads as well. As of now, the only thing that fits the bill for me is my 4WD Duster, but problem is that it has no street cred.

Most (routine service) items like filters etc are shared with the Traveller. You can get your basic service done with the Traveller guy.

He,he,he... a tractor... I always used to say that about Bullets...

But "street cred"??? Oh, man... If that's the main trouble with the Duster, maybe I should do all I can to convince you to buy a Gurkha, and then make you a purchase offer on the Renault - which in AWD form I always considered an appealing option for our family (eh, assuming it's got just a bit of low-end torque - oh, and about five more seats could occasionally be useful... Ahh, never mind...).

Anyway, fully agree with you... note I didn't say we should all be satisfied with wheezy, lazy engines; I suggested we should actually test out whatever's on offer wherever we usually drive (meaning highway, hill, offroad, etc), and decide on that basis - rather than the spec sheet - what is suitable for us.

There was an old saying in the U.S. that held a grain of truth in it: "Horsepower sells cars, Torque wins races". Well, maybe. You're right, torque is not the only thing. Point is there's psychology involved here, and a numbers game re: what sort of info is "accessible" to the average person. Ask anyone planning to buy a bike/car about bhp specs and they'll probably be able to tell you the various options and how competing models compare. But ask them what rpm the turbo boost / power band comes on, or what the final drive or first / fifth-gear ratios are, and most would give you a blank stare. And yet those things can make all the difference in terms of real-world all-round driveability.

Power-wise, there isn't much between the Gurkha's apparently laughable 91bhp and the 100bhp figure you seem to be approving. But there's undeniably a psychological threshold there - whereby some may also demand 120/130+bhp to meet their "requirements". Believe me, no 58bhp DI is at this point ideal, psychologically or otherwise (though in the uphill scenario we did manage to safely overtake just about everything on that last run, with a little skill - and inertia!). I'd strongly prefer 100bhp or more too, so long as I didn't have to give up the linearity and low-end that we make such good use of daily in our context. I fully appreciate anyone's desire for a good all-rounder, and wish I could regard the prospect of 2,000km highway trips in the Marshal more appealing.

So just sayin' here that in the Gurkha we may find - in terms of actual use - that something in the 90-100bhp range (the figure in question here) could ultimately work better all-round than something in the 120-140 range. My concern is that daily hill drivers up here did complain of the Traveller's newer (CrD) engine. Same old story: Good in the plains, good FE, but a real pain in the hills vs the older engine. I personally had experience with this trying to get one unstuck from a nallah in Spiti a couple seasons ago. Just no power off-turbo, and the turbo didn't spool early enough, so kept stalling it. Try and rev it into the boost range and well, it wouldn't rev due to the altitude, and when we did get boost (slipping/abusing the clutch to apply some loading), we couldn't modulate the power, skidding / digging in the tyres, etc. The nallah was rising, and we never could get it out (4x4 407 did so later). All in a spot that a Spacio/M&M DI/1st-gen Traveller could literally have idled out of without even touching the accelerator.

An apt comparison here would be the 120bhp mHawk Scorpio vs. the old 108bhp turbo 2.6 (which I mentioned earlier as representing to me just about a perfect hill/highway compromise):

The mHawk is certainly strong on the highway, but not so much better than the old 2.6. Whereas on the steeper hills / high ranges where the 2.6 ran great, the consensus here is that the "more powerful" newer engine is just about unbearable. Not only because it has zero off-idle grunt in general, but because it proved very wheezy itself beginning at 3,800 rpm (or less) in Spiti, and exhibits severe (and thus highly inconvenient and occasionally dangerous) turbo lag. Being that the turbo only begins to spool up around 2,200 rpm, you've only got 1,600rpm of usable range to work with - so not very flexible (even our anemic DI has 2,700 rpm worth, so even though obviously "underpowered", up here there's a lot less gear-changing / half-clutching, and it's easier to maintain steady speeds).

An mHawk-like power delivery would be the worst sort of setup for the Gurkha, but depending on what the public demands in terms of bhp figures, we could force the company's hand uselessly in that direction. Hopefully its being a little bigger displacement-wise than 2L would help here, even if the setup ended up compromised for the sake of bhp (thus sales) figures.

I think we're coming to a question of whether the Gurkha is going to be an image/"lifestyle" vehicle, or whether it's going to be used as its pedigree and basic nature would suggest it should be. Answer is probably both. Give it the right sort of engine, and it can manage either reasonably well.

The mHawk's bhp figure is a real number though, and if you spend most of your time overtaking on the highway or doing top-speed testing, it's meaningful; otherwise probably not. The man ordering it for the institution, after researching / carefully reviewing the specs, was sure it would be great because it clearly had more "power" vs. the old 2.6, and it got better FE, too. But in the real-world, that mHawk (4wd), despite having been the newest, most expensive, and best-spec'd in the fleet, quickly became the least-liked and most avoided by drivers.

To sum up, better be careful what we ask for, and don't place too much stock in numbers. Post-purchase, satisfaction should be coming mostly from behind the wheel; any hand-wringings / droolings over spec-sheets are by then long-gone, and you've just got to live with the thing.

Not so unlike marriage, come to think of it... (OUCH!!! Honey.. I didn't mean it like THAT!!!)...

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

Hi Eric, Good to know you are still haunting the big hills. I just got a phone call yesterday from Force in Mandi. They now have a 3 and a 5 door in stock, the new model. That is the nearest H.P. dealer to me at the moment, would you believe, 4.5 hours away... What's your impression of this Mandi shop? Can he actually fix anything and get parts from Force? As I write this there is no Isuzu shop in all of H.P. according to the Isuzu web site. V-max would float my boat. There is a rumor of an Isuzu dealer starting up here soon....

Hey Ken, still looking for that perfect 4x4, eh? Isuzus have begun popping up around Manali, though I heard they're sold out / on backorder for many months (wherever they come from). I really did think there was a dealer at Sundernagar or Bilaspur or someplace... but not sure about that - and it's still a long way from you. Sub-dealers under the same ownership often are not listed on company websites, in my experience.

The Mandi Force operation seems to be a fairly large and active one, the workshop looks pretty decent, and people have seemed helpful the few times I've interacted with them. They do seem eager to sell Gurkhas, so no surprise that they called you. Three of them drove three hours up here to have us test-drive one last year. They seem to be able to source even major components for at least some vehicles (if the stack of condemned tube chassis sitting in their yard was any indication). There are a ton of Travellers up here in hard service, and somebody or the other seems to be able to keep them moving. More Gurkha-like Pickup/Judo/Gama relatively rare, but a few long-wheelbase Toofan (or whatever they call them now) around. As 4x4addict suggests, basic service parts may be mostly shared with the Gurkha. Still, it's a niche vehicle at this point, still not sure if sales are really going to take off (as they seem to already be with the Isuzu) and as there was some earlier history of weakness in the Force 4x4 system (same Mandi dealer admitted such a number of years back), I'd be concerned mainly about availability of those more specific service/repair parts - which hopefully you wouldn't need, but one never knows...

Personally I like the Gurkha a lot. But I'm mainly a DIY type, especially once the warranty is over. The Force/M&M quality standards are almost certainly not (ever?) going to be in the same league as Toyota/Isuzu, and thinking back to all the woes with your Thar, I could wonder whether any extra 4-hr trips to Mandi and back might eventually prove highly taxing... I hope the Gurkha will prove better than that, but very little data out there, as everyone seems afraid to be the guinea pig.

I dunno - you've got another vehicle or two for backup - and you needed a retirement hobby, right?

-Eric

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by ringoism

An apt comparison here would be the 120bhp mHawk Scorpio vs. the old 108bhp turbo 2.6 (which I mentioned earlier as representing to me just about a perfect hill/highway compromise): -Eric

Absolutely agree with you on this statement. I was very disappointing with the noise and lack of oomph with the MDI3200TC engine in my Thar DI. I was about to sell it but felt quite bad to sell it since I had done lot of mechanical mods to get the vehicle to my taste. But, I just couldn't live with that DAMN engine. Luckily I found a sealed Scorpio SZ Plus Chain Drive engine which you mentioned above. Plonked it in my Thar DI and as you said, it is the perfect balance between bhp/Torque. Very happy with the performance. Personally, I would never even allow an MDI3200TC engine to be buried next to me after my death. I detest it .

Coming back to the Gurkha, I too prefer the 2.6 OM616 based engine to the FM2.2 in terms of hills usage. However, I don't understand why they have detuned it from the 91bhp/250NM spec from the traveller. Probably has to do with emissions. Heavier vehicles like traveller are allowed to more emissions. The 250 nm Torque would have put it a leage above the Thar CRDe as the 250 NM comes from 1400 rpm compared to Thar which makes 247 nm from about 1700 rpm. The FM2.6 will have more usable Torque at lower engine RPM.

One of these days, I plan to go the dealer and meet the head mech to see if they can oblige me by loading the Traveller FM2.6 ECM map into the Gurkha FM2.6 .

As I mentioned to Dan earlier, if you don't really care about Top End/Highway speeds, then the FM2.6 engine is way better than anything Mahindra has ever made including the MDI3200 TC engine.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

One of these days, I plan to go the dealer and meet the head mech to see if they can oblige me by loading the Traveller FM2.6 ECM map into the Gurkha FM2.6 .

If these have similar ECU's, any tuning company can do it for you.

[Torqy]

How good are Force guys with electronics? I managed to stay away from electronics till now with my Bolero DI powered by a whopping 63 bhp engine! It's been 10 years and looking for a change which is easy on the pocket (mileage rules). 85bhp is luxury for me.
Still waiting to see these vehicles on the road though.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by Torqy

How good are Force guys with electronics?

The Gurkha/Thar CRDe etc have very basic first generation common rail engines. There is electronics, but nothing too fancy to get worried about. The older Scorpio 2.6 CRDe engine has been running for donkey's years without any major complaints about electronics. I don't think this should be a worry. Either way, with new emission norms kicking it, I don't think there is any choice but accept some electronics if you plan to buy a new car.

Even if you wanted to replace your 63 bhp bolero with another new 63 bhp bolero, you will still get electronics and all the sensors without any gain in Torque/bhp

Originally Posted by Torqy

85bhp is luxury for me.
Still waiting to see these vehicles on the road though.

I have driven the Bolero engine i.e MDI3200TC extensively in the hills and also got to drive the Gurkha FM2.6 CRDe for many kilometers in the hills. I can tell you that the FM2.6 CRDe is thousand times better than the MDI3200TC. It has much better bottom end Torque and engine is very refined without the loud clatter of the MDI3200TC. Besides with coil springs all around, the vehicle is much more comfortable than the Thar or the Bolero.

The only problem is that Bolero is moved light much more ahead when it comes to interior fit/finish/ergonomics. Gurkha is crude as hell.

Originally Posted by dhanushs

If these have similar ECU's, any tuning company can do it for you.

Hoping dealer won't charge 50K to load a stock Traveller map into the Gurkha as opposed to a tuning company. But, I suppose with a tuning company you can get an ever better map.

With hardly any vehicles selling, I doubt anyone would invest in developing a map for the Gurkha FM2.6

[Torqy]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

I have driven the Bolero engine i.e MDI3200TC extensively in the hills and also got to drive the Gurkha FM2.6 CRDe for many kilometers in the hills. I can tell you that the FM2.6 CRDe is thousand times better than the MDI3200TC. It has much better bottom end Torque and engine is very refined without the loud clatter of the MDI3200TC. Besides with coil springs all around, the vehicle is much more comfortable than the Thar or the Bolero.

Yes, i did take a test drive of the new Force Expedition 5 door. I liked the refinement of the engine and how the vehicle soaked up the potholes.
But nothing more confidence inspiring than seeing them in large numbers on our roads.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Luckily I found a sealed Scorpio SZ Plus Chain Drive engine which you mentioned above. Plonked it in my Thar DI and as you said, it is the perfect balance between bhp/Torque. Very happy with the performance. Personally, I would never even allow an MDI3200TC engine to be buried next to me after my death. I detest it .

...The 250 nm Torque would have put it a leage above the Thar CRDe as the 250 NM comes from 1400 rpm compared to Thar which makes 247 nm from about 1700 rpm. The FM2.6 will have more usable Torque at lower engine RPM.

Yes, I think that full torque starting at or below 1,500 is what you want for these kinds of vehicles; I doubt a dealer could/would do a re-map, but seems it would suit the Gurkha better than just about anything. The superior low-end and refinement that you speak of vs the MDI - after having spent time driving both - is very encouraging. If they offered a 4wd 5-door, it would probably become my dream vehicle.

I probably ought to be looking for a good SZ for our Marshal... It's just that for our uses, I don't really mind the MDI-TC, which would be a lot easier swap / mod. Much better midrange pull than our N/A DI, and their noisiness (bad in any soft-top) and power delivery seem to vary depending on vehicle - I once had a great deal of trouble in a (laden) Scorpio 2.6T staying ahead of a MDI-TC equipped pickup that was coming up the back side of Rohtang in a big hurry (he finally overtook in an impressive and rather surprising burst of speed). Admittedly, they are not very highway-oriented - still only 62bhp... limiting for most folks.

-Eric

[ringoism]

(Having scrolled down a bit )

Originally Posted by ringoism

If they offered a 4wd 5-door, it would probably become my dream vehicle.

The Expedition, that is, which in 2wd only costs a little more than a new Sumo and as such seems pretty appealing. With the 2wd Explorer touching 12L, pricing could be absolutely insane for the upscale 4x4 model. At these figures, they will remain an extremely rare sight. Scorpio S4 4wd is cheaper, with much better interiors and a lot more mechanicals thrown in, and a huge and capable dealer network. Force's main obstacle is the Gurkha's rarity and unproven-ness, and all the consumer uncertainty that comes with it. Best way to overcome THAT is to get loads of them out there, and that's going to require aggressive - even painfully aggressive - pricing. Friends of mine in AP years ago (2002?) bought a brand new Judo 5-door for I think 3.5L. Okay, better engine and other upgrades for 2017, and the economy's changed. But a base-model Scorpio (with its own enhancements) has risen from 6-7L back then to 10L now... while a 5-door Tempo/Force has gone from 3.5 to 8.7 - or even 12L??? Pretty impressive. Though apples for apples, I suppose the Gurkha has advanced a lot more over the old Judo than the S4 has over the 1st gen Scorpio.

-Eric

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by Torqy

How good are Force guys with electronics? I managed to stay away from electronics till now with my Bolero DI powered by a whopping 63 bhp engine!

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

with new emission norms kicking it, I don't think there is any choice but accept some electronics if you plan to buy a new car.

That's right. And having been through the transition earlier in another part of the world, have to say that electronic control systems can really get a LOT more out of an engine in every way, and anyway Force isn't going to be developing their own - being the rest of the car had a German link, I could wonder whether we'll find Mico (Bosch) systems in there, which would be good ones.

If I weren't a DIY'er who gets out to the remote regions annually, I wouldn't care much about having a non-electronic car/bike. E-system failures are not that common, and diagnoses can be actually easier once in a qualified workshop (plug in the tester, pull the failure codes, replace whichever sensor, most of the time).

. True, there are more / costlier things to potentially go wrong, and indeed, some suppliers do it better than others (the company I worked for was doing a roaring business on account of failed GM/Delco electronics - generally inferior to the Bosch/Nippon/Denso stuff on my cars). But if you're not a tinkerer who can disassemble a carburetor road-side, the break-down / reliability issue is pretty much void since you couldn't have repaired a primitive system (which can also fail) out there either. E-systems have closed-loop/limp-home modes, so if you don't ignore the "check engine" light for too long it helps.

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

I am debating between the 3-Door vs 5-Door. ...the 6.25 meter turning radius or 12.5 meter diamter is way too much for a medium wheel base vehicle. The 3-Door does it in 5.65 meters. I don't understand why Force has had to maintain 6.25 for the 5-Door.

Comparatively amongst rugged 5-doors: Force 5-dr wheelbase = 2750mm / 6.25m TR; Bolero wheelbase = 2680mm / 5.8m TR; Sumo Gold wheelbase = 2425mm / 5.0m Turning Radius. So TR roughly proportionate to wheelbase.

Steering angles are limited, if by nothing else on 4x4's, by the max running angle of the axle shaft CV/cross joints. Otherwise (incl. on 2wd's) by tyre/chassis clearances, etc. Given identical max steering angles on vehicles with shorter vs. longer wheelbases, the latter is always going to have a larger turning radius. Nothing engineered as such, it's just a geometric inevitability. Granted, there are engineering lapses sometimes (what excuse does the Gypsy have for its horrible TR???).

The Force (5-dr) wheelbase is just a LOT longer than the others - very noticeable when you see the car in person. Very little front/rear overhang in the body design. The LWB has its advantages (ride quality, approach angle, etc) and disadvantages (breakover, TR).

Originally Posted by ringoism

...With the 2wd Explorer touching 12L, pricing could be absolutely insane for the upscale 4x4 model. At these figures, they will remain an extremely rare sight.

Forgive my confusion re: models; Looking back I see I wasn't the only one.

Most helpful to think of pricing re: alternatives, I suppose:

ref: the Force website:

Xplorer (Long Wheelbase 5-dr) 4wd @ 11.9L (H.P. pricing) which to me seems excessive for such a spartan vehicle (the predecessor Judo/Gama 4x4's (with or without difflocks) were a LOT less - but then, this is a new world today, particularly considering the BSIV factor. And there's the alloys and snorkel and inflation, and positively, 11.9L is a lot less dear than the near 16L (!) of the Scorpio S10 4wd, even less than the S4 4wd (12.77L), neither of which would be anywhere near as capable offroad, and which have a lot "softer" image. So depends on your orientation. I suspect there's going to be few takers here, but I hope I'm wrong, because I like the car (and would love to see a few to pick from on the second-hand market several years from now).

Expedition (Long wheelbase 5-dr) 2wd at 8.95L, is just a little pricier than (are you ready?) a top-end Sumo Gold (CX w/ power steering/windows, A/C), and I'd have to say at that price the Force is a lot more appealing to me. More sophisticated rear suspension, but otherwise just a lot better looks / character.

Gotta realize here that a base Sumo Gold (@ only 7.1L)with A/T tyres would go anywhere an Expedition would, has a far superior 5m turning radius, a bit more torque at 250nm, and a similarly roomy interior. The parabolic rear leafs give great ride quality, and yes, you can drive a Sumo (we had a turbo Victa earlier) at 135kmph safely on-highway, and really carve corners with it in the hills. Also excellent ground clearance (front suspension wishbones and gearbox crossmember, in particular, vs. the Force), and again, the dealer network...

So the question is, what's machismo / respect worth to ya (because the Sumo gets zero of either!!!)???

The 4x4 Sumo - which with the flared fender plastic looked slightly more aggressive - was still available maybe two years ago - but probably not anymore. That was 8.2L if memory serves... I think with a 2L IDI (certainly not BSIV) turbo... and less ground clearance than the 2wd. I wonder if they're keeping them alive for the Army's sake... Doesn't seem so by the (horrible) Tata website.

Xplorer 3-door @ 10.15L. Vs. the Thar CRDe of course; But the latter now has a rear diff lock and other upgrades, and has still kept it to around 9L. If you want a permanent hardtop the Force wins, and I do REALLY appreciate its torque peak coming in 400rpm's lower. And selectable diff locks really do offer more control, and there are two of them. Still, the Thar looks good, is pretty capable, offers the open-air option, has a broad service network, and costs a lakh less...

One thing I re-discovered on the M&M website:

Scorpio Getaway at only 10.34L (4x4, BSIV)!!! this 4-dr "lifestyle" pickup being, I suppose, the cheapest of the somewhat refined (meaning campers/Boleros excluded) multi-door 4x4's in India! I have hated the mHawk, but this seems like a great value. Amazing that they can sell this car at 2.5L less than the S4 4wd, which has pretty much the same engine / drivetrain / cabin quality. And you get cruise control, a limited slip differential, etc, etc. for that.

Bolero LX BSIV 4x4 @ 8.23L - so apart from the Thar DI, that's the cheapest 4x4 available in India AFAIK, and a great car... but you're gonna have to get A/C installed unless you stay in the higher hills full-time. By which time you're getting into the range of a Thar CRDe, with its more advanced engine and the automatic difflock...

If 4x4 wasn't absolutely necessary, I've gotta admit I'd be thinking about one of these:

http://www.mahindraimperio.com/imper...x?id=ebrochure

In dualcab (DC-VX) config: A/C, power windows/steering, central locking, rear window de-mister, 120kmph top speed, power/economy mode switch, good sound system, great ground clearance, 13.5kmpl, peak torque from 1400rpm, "telematics" and tough as nails... all for 7.5L!!! Look terrible in the webpics, but pretty good (IMO) in real life (got a red one up here in Manali, and had seen one in the Shimla showroom last year as well). They don't seem to be making much market impact... But bet with some 31" A/T tyres they could look great, and apart from urban parking, do just about everything reasonably well. All right, so none of us are going to actually buy one... I understand.

And unless we were to shift out of the snow-belt, we really do want/need 4x4, so what would I be back to here? Well, in the range I feel is reasonable for us price-wise (which is to say the bottom-end), in a multi-door it's looking like:

-Bolero LX 4x4@ near 9L (by the time you get A/C & A/T tyres fitted)

-Getaway 4x4@10.3L: not an mHawk fan, but as a pickup-like thing, might they have tuned it more favorably??? Otherwise, it's got a limited slip diff, 80L diesel tank, cruise control and all the creature comforts, and would be a good highway-runner that could do some occasional rough roads / slippery stuff / load-carrying with. Only pain being the commercial registration / semi-annual inspections. And my current distaste for the idea of plonking down 10+L for anything, when the Marshal is still running/serving well.

Too bad they couldn't have made a Gurkha (or Judo/Gama or whatever) 5-dr. 4x4 at around 9L. Why not, if M&M has managed the Bolero 4x4 at considerably less than that, even?

-Eric

[Torqy]

Originally Posted by ringoism

If I weren't a DIY'er who gets out to the remote regions annually, I wouldn't care much about having a non-electronic car/bike. E-system failures are not that common, and diagnoses can be actually easier once in a qualified workshop (plug in the tester, pull the failure codes, replace whichever sensor, most of the time).

I'm no DIY'er, but i can take the Bolero to any roadside mechanic and get basic repairs done. That may not be possible with electronics. :(

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by Torqy

I'm no DIY'er, but i can take the Bolero to any roadside mechanic and get basic repairs done. That may not be possible with electronics. :(

Today, you can get OBD-II Scanner's very cheap. In my Ford Endeavour 3.0 Thunder plus 4x4, the check engine light came on and the 2000 rpm rev limiter kicked in. That means every time, I tried to accelerate the ECM would limit my rpm to 2000 rpm. I hooked up the scanner, checked the error code online and found that it was the Intake Manifold Pressure Sensor. I then took it to the dealer, but didn't mention the scan I had done just to see what story he comes up with. Surprisingly he said the same thing. The part was ordered (7K) and replaced in an hours time.

But compared to the old IDI Endeavour without electronics, the 3.0 TDCI gave 50% more power/torque output and better fuel efficiency despite the increase in CC/power/torque.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by ringoism

And there's the alloys and snorkel and inflation, and positively, 11.9L is a lot less dear than the near 16L (!) of the Scorpio S10 4wd, even less than the S4 4wd (12.77L), neither of which would be anywhere near as capable offroad, and which have a lot "softer" image.

Scorpio Getaway at only 10.34L (4x4, BSIV)!!! this 4-dr "lifestyle" pickup being, I suppose, the cheapest of the somewhat refined (meaning campers/Boleros excluded) multi-door 4x4's in India! I have hated the mHawk, but this seems like a great value. Amazing that they can sell this car at 2.5L less than the S4 4wd, which has pretty much the same engine / drivetrain / cabin quality. And you get cruise control, a limited slip differential, etc, etc. for that.

fitted)

-Getaway 4x4@10.3L: not an mHawk fan, but as a pickup-like thing, might they have tuned it more favorably??? Otherwise, it's got a limited slip diff, 80L diesel tank, cruise control and all the creature comforts, and would be a good highway-runner that could do some occasional rough roads / slippery stuff / load-carrying with. Only pain being the commercial registration / semi-annual inspections. And my current distaste for the idea of plonking down 10+L for anything, when the Marshal is still running/serving well.

Too bad they couldn't have made a Gurkha (or Judo/Gama or whatever) 5-dr. 4x4 at around 9L. Why not, if M&M has managed the Bolero 4x4 at considerably less than that, even?

-Eric

Addenda:

Scorpio will add 20 bhp to their new Scorpio facelift sometime around year end, many media say. It's the XUV 500 M-chicken version. HAWK! I mean hawk. This Alzheimer's thing is so...somebody smell chicken?

Don't know if the Getaway gets this, too.

Anybody seriously consider Tata Xenon crew cab? About 114 bhp.

[Samurai]

Came across this post in FB.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

[Torqy]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Came across this post in FB.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

This is very bad for a company which already has no takers / bad image in the Gurkha range. The original poster hasn't mentioned the context or what happened.