[1100D]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Getting back to the original consideration, the DI would've worked out just fine for the NGO who was consulting with me re: a new vehicle pick. They wanted something to locally ferry school students (as many as ten at a time), food supplies, gas cylinders, etc, with only an occasional trip to Shimla or Chandigarh... requirements for which the Bolero DI would clearly be superior over the Scorpio. The rough ride quality and noisy engine hardly matter when most of your driving is trips of under 10km.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed. BSIII considerations aside (still sold in much/most of rural India, isn't it - and the dealer is saying only the 4x4 version has ceased, not the other BSIII Bolero DI/Plus/LX models, so that can't be the sole reason),
-Eric

If you are seriously interested, please PM me the requirement of the NGO (Vehicle, location, BSIII-IV etc), let me see if I can get you help with this.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

All I can say is that I am glad there are so many of us who live in the hills and drive steep inclines with 11 people on board. If not for the 63 bhp MDI3200TC engine we would have to use a bullock cart. Since no modern deisel engine can climb steep slopes with 11 people on board. But frankly of all the people who praise this engine, I know only 3 to 4 people who use it every day including your's truly... Let us actually see how many people would buy this engine for a personal vehicle.

Please keep in mind the local NGO's requirements, which is what I started this discussion with.

But sales numbers would be easy enough to look into, and I think they'd bear out the reality that tens (hundreds?) of thousands of "normal" non-hill people have been choosing the DI (i.e., Bolero) for private vehicles. Up here in Manali there are just loads of them, almost none being taxis (mostly Spacios take that role, for their roomier interiors); I just met the very satisfied owner of a Scorpio M2DI a couple days ago, too; People want these engines and have kept buying cars so-equipped simply because they provide a great overall ownership experience and suit the general conditions well, even when lugging far less than 11 passengers. I'll freely admit there are "nicer" (much less NVH, more powerful bhp-wise) modern engines out there.

But lest it be considered merely a hill-sensation and therefore a marginal / specialized application and clientèle, should mention the many private ones seen coming up from the Punjab plains packed with family members and their luggage, too. I suspect that there in the Indian breadbasket, there are probably strong positive associations with the M&M DI tractors (575DI, etc) as well, which have supported these passenger-car sales. As DB indicated, the DI has truly been a brand... its eventual, inevitable demise notwithstanding.

In the hills you don't need extreme inclines to appreciate the DI's torque-curve superiority vs. that newer machinery, either. When I drove the Scorpio mHawk 4wd out to Spiti a couple years back, there were only 4-5 persons aboard, and I was appalled that it could hardly get moving (once stopped) on the fairly mild climb at Rani Nallah, Rohtang Road; it was requiring heavy throttle/serious clutch abuse to build sufficient boost in 1st gear, until I just gave up and put it in 4Low - but what can 2wd owners do?... Whereas in truth our old DI - also with five aboard, could get going on with hardly even touching the accelerator. This was not just a problem of "me" as a driver; EVERYONE running up to / beyond the pass complains about it. So every time I have to start out on an incline (a notable one a couple days ago in Kullu, but pretty much every day when slipping into our parking spot at home) in our own car, I'm grateful for the low-rpm "grunt" tuned DI. It just makes sense up here. Again, they also have a reputation for being fairly abuse/neglect-proof, and if they do break down, they are roadside-repairable - a real benefit when you're three hundred km's from the nearest workshop (Manali-Leh, etc). This is not an unrealistic scenario - I can remember a local mechanic being sent out to Sarchu to repair a Spacio (DI) late in the season a couple years ago. I think he actually ended up doing some major overhauling, nothing he couldn't manage with a very basic set of hand-tools: and a few days later he came back smiling!).

Originally Posted by JKDS

I think the salesman is un-equipped to handle the query, because I recall that the first salesman I spoke to didn't even know that this model existed. I guess it's also to do with monthly targets and incentives. I'll try and find out from the dealer I bought from in Kolkata whether only the LX 4x4 model has been discontinued (seems unlikely, as it is targeted at Government sales, as per disclosure from Mahindra on the website itself). Till then, let's keep our fingers crossed.

Wish it were that simple. As mentioned above, the salesperson here is fully aware of the LX model (has sold a number of both these and the base DI 4x4 up here, including a private one to a friend some time back) and knows he's losing sales by not having it available.

Latest: I'm friendly with the RTO up here, and a few days after my previous post was sitting in his office, where he and another official were poring over legal wordings trying to figure out whether they could register a BS-III schoolbus that had been purchased new just a few days BEFORE the latest state directive arrived - which apparently bans sub-BSIV registrations. So perhaps the rural areas of the nation will no longer be immune, and M&M has just quit the model, at least till they can figure out which BS-IV engine will work for it.

If anyone comes up with additional info, I'd be most appreciative.

Thanks,
-Eric

[Torqy]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Tini (4*4 addict) - the original name of "that damn engine" is MD2350! It is older than old generation, it derives it's lineage from the B275 tractor of ITCI (International Tractor Company of India) dating back to the 60s and the 70s. It is heavy, it is slouchy, it vibrates and makes noise, but still customers want it. Why? The real reason is because it has become a brand, all over India! Customers will not buy the vehicle if that engine is not there in it. CL500MDI 91" and 101" wheelbase 2WD and 4WD soft top Jeeps made in Kandivli, equipped with derived versions of this engine, the MDI2500A, the MDI3000, the MDI3200, the MDI3200TC and now the M2DI, gave spectacular fuel economy figure of 17+ kmpl (particularly MDI2500A), when diesel used to cost less than 10 rupees a liter. It also ran to next to zero maintenance cost. Any mechanic below a tree could repair it, no dealer viability business case could ever match that low cost, even in those days! I have seen an engine with major sludge in its sump running merrily in a rural taxi, ferrying customers. Customers buy Bolero not because of the vehicle, but because it has "that damn engine"! That's the value of brand! Believe me, I happen to know! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

@Behram Sir, (posted this elsewhere...with no use. Posting here since you're here. )

This is not exactly a long term ownership review. My Bolero is 9 Years and 100000Km old and there are certain things which I wished the "more knowledgeable" Mahindra would think about and do something about. But the mighty Mahindra were busy with redesigning grills, logo projection from side mirrors, adding "Welcome to Mahindra Bolero" voice and such important stuff. Can't blame them.

So here are some things I wished they thought of in a Bolero in no particular order. No, i'm not asking for Twin Turbos or 150bhp.

1. Split / Collapsible Middle Row Seats. Rocket science?
2. Relocating the rear number plate from that MOST STUPID place to below the Rear Door handle. Rocket science?
3. Better Windshield Wiper angle / mechanism so that it doesn't leave an uncleaned "pizza slice" section on the driver's side which creates sort of a "blind spot".
4. Taller gear lever with a shorter throw.....which means "bring the fulcrum up".
5. Front wheels splash water onto the windscreen blinding the driver. Mahindra, still clueless after so many years?
6. Matching the front and rear track widths.

Your response please, Sir.

-- Torqy

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by Torqy

@Behram Sir, (posted this elsewhere, with no use. Posting here since you're here. ). Here are some things I wished they thought of in a Bolero.

1. Split / Collapsible Middle Row Seats. Rocket science?
2. Relocating the rear number plate from that MOST STUPID place to below the Rear Door handle. Rocket science?
3. Better Windshield Wiper angle / mechanism so that it doesn't leave an uncleaned "pizza slice" section on the driver's side which creates sort of a "blind spot".
4. Taller gear lever with a shorter throw, which means "bring the fulcrum up".
5. Front wheels splash water onto the windscreen blinding the driver. Mahindra, still clueless after so many years?
6. Matching the front and rear track widths.

Your response please, Sir. . Torqy

Dear Torqy - your questions are SPLENDID! My replies are as follows:

1, 4 and 5: 100% classic examples, where it is absolutely compulsory to start and end every single sentence with the word "Sir" and also avoid the use of adjectives and adverbs of the English language: "Sir current design selling in large quantity Sir / Sir no customer issue checked in system Sir / Sir checked in SAP also Sir / Sir budget issue Sir / Sir gear shift effort will go up Sir / Sir seating capacity will go down Sir / Sir CMVR issue Sir / Sir if marketing wants we can consider in MY (model year) project but on low priority Sir / Sir we will need new engine development Sir / Sir we are working on new platform Sir / Sir we will tell dealer to settle with this customer Sir / Sir this is case-to-case issue Sir / Sir customer is under control Sir".
2 and 3: classic CMVR examples: Sir we can't put number plate on the left side of the car center line Sir / Sir tooling cost of rear door with holes for number plate Sir / Sir we meet current CMVR for percentage of area wiped for A, B and C surfaces Sir / Sir ARAI testing Sir / Sir we will discuss with ARAI Sir / Sir to put in which budget Sir"? (nobody touches CMVR sensitive things with a barge pole also, marneka hai kya)?
6. Result of NG chassis adaptation of 1996, which required reduction of turning circle diameter. Rear continued because no change to Armada tooling.

"Sir next time please don't ask Einstein IQ requiring questions, I am angootha chhap Sir"! . Bean Counters Zindabad!

.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[Torqy]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Torqy - your questions are SPLENDID! My replies are as follows:


"Sir next time please don't ask Einstein IQ requiring questions, I am angootha chhap Sir"! . Bean Counters Zindabad!

.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Sir, you have answered all the questions in one shot. And the answers were as expected. No more questions, SIR!!! I'll drive what i have. Thank You.



-- Torqy

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by Torqy

Sir, I'll drive what I have. . Torqy

Dear Torqy - drive whatever you want to drive, but also go one step backwards and think! Pretend that you have to buy, then ask yourself "who am I dealing with in the showroom"? The answer is "a very minor functionary in the fringe area of the company"! And, "what product am I buying with my hard earned money"? You have to answer numerous such questions, to zero-in on the product that you buy. I'm helping you with one such question: "Is this vehicle pre-programmed not to go straight (pull to one side), no matter what I do or what anybody does"? ! You understand? These questions are for all products across all manufacturers, not just for the manufacturer in this thread. It is only when customers start thinking like this, actually calmly and quietly think like this, get straight answers to their own straight common sense questions, and base their purchase decisions on facts, then they will be delighted with their purchase! You don't have to be technically qualified to do this, just one look under the bonnet + common sense + rationality are enough.

The ultimate goal that each and every customer must achieve is: "Nothing happens to my car - EVER - I just add fuel and drive"!
I've been achieving it for years! The key word is "EVER"!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[Kandisa]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

It is only when customers start thinking like this, actually calmly and quietly think like this, get straight answers to their own straight common sense questions, and base their purchase decisions on facts, then they will be delighted with their purchase!

Quite thought provoking sir as usual. But what if the customer is not in a position to get the straight factual answer always OR it so happens that each of the option (vehicles under consideration) has a set of 'negative' aspects which may not tilt the final decision uniformly in favour to one particular option. Lastly, what about the situation when there is this 'TINA' factor, you are buying simple because There Is No Alternative and you HAVE to digest the associated negativity.

The ultimate goal that each and every customer must achieve is: "Nothing happens to my car - EVER - I just add fuel and drive"!
I've been achieving it for years! The key word is "EVER"!

Is this doable for a 'normal' person who might not be 'privileged' to have an in-depth idea about those 'little' things which upon tinkering in the right manner, ensure a bullet proof reliability?

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by Kandisa

1. Quite thought provoking sir as usual. But what if the customer is not in a position to get the straight factual answer always OR it so happens that each of the option (vehicles under consideration) has a set of 'negative' aspects which may not tilt the final decision uniformly in favour to one particular option. Lastly, what about the situation when there is this 'TINA' factor, you are buying simple because There Is No Alternative and you HAVE to digest the associated negativity. 2. Is this doable for a 'normal' person who might not be 'privileged' to have an in-depth idea about those 'little' things which upon tinkering in the right manner, ensure a bullet proof reliability?

Dear Kandisa - hello to you after a long time. Your questions are correct and my reply is as follows:
1. The TINA factor is the second phase. Normal customers can still ask normal questions to themselves and get correct answers for themselves in the first phase. It is important for people to start thinking that something like this can be done. This simple exercise can provide them the initial level of protection from the nonsense which is still being dished out as vehicles in our country.
2. Yes, mortar-proof reliability is possible. I have been helping many people for years now, who in turn have helped a lot of other people. This is nothing new, I am just mentioning today. I used my 1987 model Maruti 800 for 1,87,000 kms before selling it by doing nothing to it except normal maintenance.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[Torqy]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

The ultimate goal that each and every customer must achieve is: "Nothing happens to my car - EVER - I just add fuel and drive"!
I've been achieving it for years! The key word is "EVER"!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Yessir! Exactly why my Bolero is 9 Yrs now and 1L on the odo. All i wanted was a vehicle with a good view from the driver's seat, no-nonsense (read no-electronics) engine. What i posted were the thoughts i had from 9 years of driving it and hoped Mahindra's think tank will think ahead of their customers and do it. :(

-- Torqy

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by Torqy

All I wanted was a vehicle with a good view from the driver's seat! Torqy

Dear Torqy - oh come on now, you know which vehicle that is, you will get the view as if you are sitting in your balcony, its certainly not the Bolero! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[Torqy]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Torqy - oh come on now, you know which vehicle that is, you will get the view as if you are sitting in your balcony, its certainly not the Bolero! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Which is that vehicle? I hope you're not talking about Tata 407.

-- Torqy

[AdityaDeane]

Even though neither the product website nor the brochure tell anything about the 4x4 version of Mahindra Bolero (not Bolero Power+), but on checking the Price List of Bolero in Dehradun right now I saw that there is a mention of prices of Bolero LX 4WD Non-AC variant as well. Is this an indication that the 4x4 variant is going to be available again in the market, or will it be a typo? The price is way above the regular variant, so may not be a typo per se.



{UPDATE} So, thought of calling the local Mahindra dealer in Dehradun. Got to know that this is the variant which is sold to the Govt. for their special applications and is not available for order for the rest of the general Indian public! I so wish that they could make an exception.

[JKDS]

Originally Posted by AdityaDeane

So, thought of calling the local Mahindra dealer in Dehradun. Got to know that this is the variant which is sold to the Govt. for their special applications and is not available for order for the rest of the general Indian public! I so wish that they could make an exception.

You can be rest assured that the Bolero LX 4WD was always available for sale, but for Government applications only. Earlier, it was sold in the BS3 variant, and since the change in rules, it has been upgraded to a BS4 variant.

As for buying it, you can speak personally with the dealer, and ask him to inquire with Mahindra. Alternatively, you can also e-mail Mahindra directly and ask them for details of the purchase of the BS4 variant. A consistent follow-up does yield results.

But please take a detailed test drive in a Bolero Plus or Ambulance version to get a real world feel of the suspension of the Bolero LX, as it has leaf springs all around.