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Old 5th March 2019, 11:45   #46
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Re: Why are 4x4 enthusiasts given step-motherly treatment in India?

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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
................ Many of the small vehicles that ply the roads between Dehradun and Mussoorie have, need, four wheel drive, for example. I expect this is true in many places in the Himalayas, in India.
................
Agree with most of the points on almost all of the posts except this one above.

The Dehradun Mussoorie road is built perfect and infact sees a lot of altos, wagonrs, swifts etc. from all over north India be in rains of the summers or snow of the winters. Its not that extreme. You must have thought of some other road or maybe gone via those narrow village roads which we offroaders love as those are the only ones left to try 4wd on.

Talking of Xtreme, now here is one vehicle which absolutely everyone should gobble up! People buy 10.5L Thar, spruce it up with a HT and suspension and bumpers and what not. Other than the wheels and tires I don't think the gurkha xtreme needs any sprucing up.
People used to crib about IFS on the thar and about not having coil spring suspension. Here is live axle and coil springs thrown in for measure. I don't know what is stopping people. I take it from current gurkha owners that component reliability and availability is generally not an issue with the gurkha.
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Old 5th March 2019, 15:23   #47
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Re: Why are 4x4 enthusiasts given step-motherly treatment in India?

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Originally Posted by navpreet318 View Post

The Dehradun Mussoorie road is built perfect and infact sees a lot of altos, wagonrs, swifts etc. from all over north India be in rains of the summers or snow of the winters. Its not that extreme.
"Built Perfect"...??? It's a good road but..."Perfect?" I have seen many small 4X4 pickups on that road. Apparently THEY think they need four wheel drive. I get the feeling you have not spent much time driving in snow or ice. It does not take much of an incline to stop a vehicle or make a road treacherous.



Did I say there were no 2wd drive vehicles using that road? No, I did not.
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Old 5th March 2019, 15:52   #48
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Re: Why are 4x4 enthusiasts given step-motherly treatment in India?

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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
"Built Perfect"...??? It's a good road but..."Perfect?" I have seen many small 4X4 pickups on that road. Apparently THEY think they need four wheel drive. I get the feeling you have not spent much time driving in snow or ice. It does not take much of an incline to stop a vehicle or make a road treacherous.

Did I say there were no 2wd drive vehicles using that road? No, I did not.

Dan Baba, It is actually built perfect. When did you last try it? We ride superbikes there as well. Low slung harleys as well and corner our superbikes very well.

And Since I live here and quite literally ride and drive on it every 3rd or 4th day, I can quite righteously state that it is built perfect.
Now coming to the snow part. I never mentioned that 2wd can drive easily on snow. I stated that during snow in mussoorie 2wd cars are easily seen as it is almost never heavily snowed in. And almost always people use 2wd cars in this area.
I have simply stated that Dehradun Mussoorie road is not one of those roads wanting a 4wd vehicle as an almost necessity. Kindly do not take every nay sayer with such hostility.
You might be more experienced in snow driving as I can see your location states Dharamshala but I have had my own share of experience as well as scares in snow and Ice on both 4 wheels and 2 wheels. I know the feeling when all 4 wheels are drifting towards the 300 ft. deep gorge. And I also know the feeling when a car slides and slams against our car peacefully parked at the side waiting for the others to pass.


So Mussoorie-Dehradun Road, NOPE! Other places like Harsil, Thatyur, and other hard to reach villages including Dhanaulti in the winter snow, YES!

Last edited by navpreet318 : 5th March 2019 at 15:53.
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Old 5th March 2019, 17:51   #49
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Re: Why are 4x4 enthusiasts given step-motherly treatment in India?

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Originally Posted by navpreet318 View Post
So Mussoorie-Dehradun Road, NOPE! Other places like Harsil, Thatyur, and other hard to reach villages including Dhanaulti in the winter snow, YES!
Yeah Mussoorie-Dehradun is super easy in any vehicle at any time of the year.

Don't want to take the thread too off-topic, but I had a passing thought about why 4x4's aren't that critical in India anymore.

I just took a trip to Dhanualti a just few days ago when it snowed in the area. It didn't even snow that bad and small hatches were having a hard time finding traction. Local taxi drivers also make trips in their 4x2 Boleros with almost bald tires.

People still manage without 4x4s because there is backup available. You get stuck, you may have to wait but eventually people will help you get out. Having a 4x4 surely adds to peace of mind that your chances of being stranded alone are lowered if it is not a busy route.

My only two thoughts at the time: First, if this was somehow a 4WD only road during snow, jams like these would be highly unlikely and everyone would be relatively safer. Impractical to expect that such a rule would or should be implemented though. Second, I'm never going to these places in a 2WD if any snow is expected.

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Last edited by Tanmay K : 5th March 2019 at 17:57.
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Old 5th March 2019, 18:27   #50
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Re: Why are 4x4 enthusiasts given step-motherly treatment in India?

Exactly my point Tanmay. If any road gets a good amount of snow no vehicle can do it comfortably. Not even a 4X4 if the person behind it is not adequately experienced. And if there is a steep incline with a good layer of snow and the momentum is low or any sudden throttle input and whoosh!

So in short again. The mussoorie dehradun road is very good. It does not get enough snow to warrant use of 4X4s. And even in the areas with good amount of snow like the mussoorie dhanaulti road, locals use the mahindra commander jeeps and boleros in 2wd guise with bald tires and make it across safely. Incase other cars with inexperienced drivers are present, every year a couple of cars slide down 300ft gorges(remains of which can be seen throughout the year near Rana near Suakholi) and almost all of them are pushed by locals and nearly all make it safely across to mussoorie.

I had my own share of snow this year when i went up a secret village road which seems to not be such a big secret now.
But reached fresh snow first and enjoyed a lot!
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Old 5th March 2019, 21:06   #51
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Re: Why are 4x4 enthusiasts given step-motherly treatment in India?

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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
About two decades ago you could get the Armada / Armada Grand which had factory-fitted A/C and P/S, the latter also with the rather strong 2.5L Peugeot, a highway-worthy 5-speed, efficient and trouble-free manual-select Borg-Warner transfer case, and power windows.
The Armada Grand had a BW electrically actuated Xfer case.
Also I have mixed feelings about the XD3. Leaving aside its maintenance (quality and cost) issues, in my experience it (and the XDP) had very poor cold starting characteristics.

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Old 6th March 2019, 03:53   #52
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Re: Why are 4x4 enthusiasts given step-motherly treatment in India?

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Originally Posted by Tanmay K View Post

My only two thoughts at the time: First, if this was somehow a 4WD only road during snow, jams like these would be highly unlikely and everyone would be relatively safer.
Look how little snow, melting snow at that, it took to jam things up.

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Originally Posted by Tanmay K View Post
Second, I'm never going to these places in a 2WD if any snow is expected.
This is wise. Also perhaps a good decision even if you DO have four wheel drive. Yes, you may be able to go, but you still have to be able to stop and four wheel drive does not help you much there. Downhill "perfect" roads, snow/ice covered, take their toll. Also, you may sally forth in your fine four wheel drive vehicle only to find that the roads are blocked by fools who got stuck when they should have stayed home to watch Aishwarya Rai sell shampoo on the boob-tube. I only go out in the snow in my Thar after I am pretty sure I am not going to get trapped. I am worth it.

But in the more remote areas, mountain villages need to be supplied, hydroelectric equipment needs to be serviced, pipelines need to be maintained, people need to travel to and from medical facilities. All I am saying is that four wheel drive is more than an "enthusiasm" of life style fans. It is very much needed up here and there is a market, a market evidenced by the fact that most of India's auto companies have four wheel drive models including small commercial trucks. Roads, regardless of how "perfect" they may be, don't control the weather, are prone to slides, become "imperfect"....and a wonderfully smooth black topped road can be a slide chute very easily.

Last edited by DirtyDan : 6th March 2019 at 04:18.
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Old 6th March 2019, 13:24   #53
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Re: Why are 4x4 enthusiasts given step-motherly treatment in India?

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Originally Posted by ralto View Post
Even on TBhp, I have seen lots of comments saying "India hardly has a terrain where 4x4's are needed".

Makes, me think, you MUST be kidding.

On a serious note though, there is huge neglect from the companies towards 4x4 and also people do not understand the importance/requirement of a proper 4x4. This comes from personal experience. After upgrading to a pseudo-SUV, I found out how it fares far worse than a humble ALTO, in the hills and that is when I realized that I should have gone for an AWD, if not a proper 4x4.
We were gone most of the winter, stayed in Mizoram where clay-ey soils create extremely slick roads during monsoon time. Rural taxi-wallahs still manage with Sumos somehow, but do get stuck sometimes (father-in-law ran one). Overall a lot more 4x4's both private and commercial than many places, on pickups (as in Shimla) probably as much for the Low-Range transfer case as for traction, as streets can be really steep in Aizawl.

Back here in Manali after a snowy winter, the 4x4 has been a major benefit just in getting into our parking spot / getting turned around every day. I did in two minutes what would've taken a few hours of hard shoveling if I had a 2wd. Multiply that by however many fresh snows per season.

Granted as DD has said, it is still sometimes of questionable benefit for actually getting anywhere, due to the masses of people out on the roads in normal cars trying their luck and jamming things up (or here in the villages, just parking overnight in the middle of the road!). But overall it's been a benefit. Once it pulled us out of a mud-slick parking lot of a marriage hall in Patiala, and there are the river-roads in Spiti of course, but apart from such exceptional circumstances, outside of the snow we could've managed without it. There IS a certain peace of mind there, but the reality is that it's a question of degree... basically whatever car you've got and whatever the tyres, you're gonna get held up when the axles/undercarriage start dragging. Alto's good for a few inches of snow (unless it's icy/steep), Marshal a foot maybe, depending on snow type. So how much of the time do we need to get somewhere when there's between three and twelve inches out there, that's one consideration...

And Sutripta would be the only one to catch my sloppiness there (more than anyone I know he keeps bhpians honest)... Armada NGCS with AC and manual BW TC, Grand adding PS and PW and (regrettably) the electric-select. Looked at buying both at various times. Btw the DI with fresh battery started immediately on this sub-zero morning, but as I'm about to be crucified for mentioning its benefits in another thread, I'll keep mum beyond this...and the observation that when traveling in the Marshal a couple Autumns back, we came across a brand-new common-rail Force vehicle out at Losar in Spiti with a very worried-looking and unhappy owner-operator. Wouldn't start that cold morning, wouldn't even push-start, and he had fifteen passengers waiting to continue their tour. Nobody out lot there had any idea what to do about it (sorry for the OT)...

-Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 6th March 2019 at 13:53.
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Old 7th March 2019, 04:31   #54
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Re: Why are 4x4 enthusiasts given step-motherly treatment in India?

What exactly is the difference between the MDi3200tc motor and the m2dicr?

I see that 4X4 Boleros used by sundry Gov agencies use the m2dicr. The Thar Di uses the MDi3200tc still? Is this true?

I have had Mahindra dealers lie to me about the availability for purchase of both the Thar Di and the Bolero 4X4. You get "step motherly" treatment from dealers, too, it seems.
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Old 13th March 2019, 23:10   #55
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Re: Why are 4x4 enthusiasts given step-motherly treatment in India?

In snow and ice conditions,4x4 alone does not suffice, agreed.

What you definitely need is snow chains, both to find traction to go, as well as to stop. Real winter driving, like the armed forces have to at high altitudes, have to involve chains, on all wheels, or at least on drive wheels.

In case there is only one pair of chains available, they are used diagonally -- one front wheel and the opposite rear.

Cheaper plastic chains are also available now-a-days.

Studded tyres, with steel bolts embedded, are another choice for ice and snow --generally not available in India, I think.
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Old 23rd March 2019, 13:52   #56
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Re: Why are 4x4 enthusiasts given step-motherly treatment in India?

So what I have seen mostly on this thread is blaming manufacturers for not launching a 4x4 in India, and unless they launch it, they are not gonna know the response to such vehicles.
However, some folks have rightly pointed out that there is a very small and niche market for such vehicles here. And that is the reason, I believe, manufacturers who do offer off road products, do it as Halo.

Think from a carmaker's perspective, when they do a demand forecasting and market readiness study, and trust me they spend a lot on it. Does India look like a promising market to launch a proper 4x4? Some say that it's just a question about launching a product which is already available in other markets. But what about the changes to be made to the assembly line to produce it locally, source raw material of the same quality locally, marketing spends and if it's a CBU/CKD, taxes?

Suppose a survey comes your way which looks like this:
  • What is your monthly mileage?
  • What percentage of it is off-road?
  • If offered with an off-road variant, how much would your offroad mileage increase to?
  • Would you use the offroad vehicle as a daily driver?
  • Select a suitable price range (<10L, 10-15L, 15-20L, >20L)

I'm pretty sure even most TBHPians would have ambitious answers for the first 4 questions, but the last one would see most folks regressing to the first 2 buckets. Even most car enthusiasts wouldn't spend a lot of big bucks on off-road vehicles, unless they are core off-road junkies like some here.
For a manufacturer, it is quite a challenge to provide all the features for off-roading and at the same time maintain the creature comforts of a daily driver. When working on a budget, you get either the extremely capable Gurkha with no comfort whatsoever, or the Creta with no off-roading capabilities at all.
It's a trade-off we'll have to live with until a time comes where common man really appreciates the fun of off-roading.

An afterthought - with increasing traffic woes, maneuvering a 4x4 on city streets is another reason people don't go for such vehicles.

Mods - please delete post if it doesn't add value or is repetitive.
Thanks,
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Old 25th March 2019, 00:02   #57
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Re: Why are 4x4 enthusiasts given step-motherly treatment in India?

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An afterthought - with increasing traffic woes, maneuvering a 4x4 on city streets is another reason people don't go for such vehicles.
Vehicles such as Fortuner, Endeavour, Scorpio, Tucson, Hexa and XUV500 are available both in 2WD and 4WD/AWD variants as well, How come their maneuverability is difficult with respect to 4WD/AWD vs 2WD variant in normal traffic conditions on regular tarmac roads?
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Old 25th March 2019, 01:45   #58
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Re: Why are 4x4 enthusiasts given step-motherly treatment in India?

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we came across a brand-new common-rail Force vehicle out at Losar in Spiti with a very worried-looking and unhappy owner-operator. Wouldn't start that cold morning, wouldn't even push-start, and he had fifteen passengers waiting to continue their tour.
This has been the common complaint about the new Gurkha. I heard that 3 of them got stuck while going to Sandakphu due to the same reason, the cars were not starting in cold.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:45   #59
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Originally Posted by The King View Post
Vehicles such as Fortuner, Endeavour, Scorpio, Tucson, Hexa and XUV500 are available both in 2WD and 4WD/AWD variants as well, How come their maneuverability is difficult with respect to 4WD/AWD vs 2WD variant in normal traffic conditions on regular tarmac roads?
Right, shouldn't have used the 4x4 terminology. What I meant was people prefer smaller SUVs to drive on road like the Creta, EcoSport, Nexon, etc. Hardly any of which are capable 4x4s (except Duster). So my point about maneuverability in the city was to do with size rather than the drivetrain.
Also, some which are small but capable are not a delight on the road (read Thar, Gurkha), so not counting those.
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Old 6th May 2019, 18:34   #60
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Re: Why are 4x4 enthusiasts given step-motherly treatment in India?

Some interesting views in the last 2 pages
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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
You don't need AWD or 4x4 even for Ladakh unless you're getting well off the beaten path. Even in Spiti, where roads are much worse, commercial taxi-wallahs use Sumo Gold / Spacio / Traveler more than anything. Ground clearance is the main thing.
Going by this logic would you ever need a 4x4 vehicle unless you engage in offroad sports? One can always lift Sumo by 2 to 4 inches and just drive through the boulder laden water crossing at double digit speeds.

What about the WD that just turned your favorite pass white with a feet of snow overnight. Lets spin our wheels frantically and push our vehicle (traction be damned).

We shouldn't assume that everybody is going to go to Ladakh or Spiti in the driest months where water crossings are without water. Even the humble Malling nala can be a problem to 2wd vehicles and vehicles get stuck there also.

As a recommendation, I'd always say that you should have a 4x4 vehicle doing the kind of terrain that Ladakh and Lahaul (if not Spiti) have in store for you. A fellow bhpian did Ladakh in his Civic but that doesn't necessarily translate into a recommendation.

The purpose of having a 4x4 vehicle in such terrain is not to use it 10 hours out of your 12 hour drive but to be able to make across that tricky patch with ease.
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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
The thread started with an appeal for a relatively basic, affordable 4x4.
Which are very much available but when we want Endeavour like comfort in Thar or Duster not being adequate for its price then there might as well be another thread on Affordable Yachts.
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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
The new Jimny would sell decently in India, I think. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
While I would be happy to be proven wrong but I think Jimny won't be a success in India. There isn't really a big 4x4 market in India and most of the Jimny owners would be the ones who are making do with Thars, Gypsys & Duster AWD today. By this I don't mean all Thar / Gypsy owners but those who are struggling with these vehicles shortcomings.

Majority of Thar owners are buying it for a Jeep (read showoff) than its 4x4 capability.

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Originally Posted by ralto View Post
After upgrading to a pseudo-SUV, I found out how it fares far worse than a humble ALTO, in the hills and that is when I realized that I should have gone for an AWD, if not a proper 4x4.
I know, at least Alto was much more fun around the corners

Whenever someone says India has a huge 4x4 market just waiting for the manufacturers to offer the right products I just look at the sales number for Brezza, Creta, Ecosport and then at Duster AWD variant.
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Originally Posted by SnakemanJohny View Post
In snow and ice conditions,4x4 alone does not suffice, agreed.
But a 4x4 is still going to give you a 10x advantage compared to a 2wd.

It was January this year and I was on my way back from the first humongous snowstorm in Narkanda. Snow had reached Solan after almost a decade so the traffic situation at Shimla can be imagined very well.

Shimla's roads were mostly quarter inch of snow & ice but nothing that a carefully driven 4x4 couldn't handle even without the snow cables. Since I had snow cables on all 4 the drive had become bothersome because without adequate snow or ice its pretty gut wrenching to drive with snow cables knowing you may be damaging them.

I removed the snow cables undermining the traffic situation even though it was 9pm in the night. In a few hundred meters I encountered a heavy traffic jam.

I was going downhill and the jam was because cars going uphill couldn't climb the not so steep gradient that was in front of me.

There were around 10 people trying to signal 10 other drivers and in this mess somebody asked me to drive down. I did and then the other 9 got angry because no one was able to even move their car and they got worried that with my Fortuner there nobody would be able to move an inch. Why?

Simply because people even in hills don't understand the significant difference a 4x4 vehicle can bring to a situation. I just backed up my car around 10 meters so that the fish tailing dzire could be pushed to the side without ramming in and continued on my way back to Delhi.

In reality, one may not always encounter a situation where all 4 wheels only have butter smooth ice as the only contact patch. Even if one wheel gets little traction it makes all the difference.
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Originally Posted by GrandTourer View Post
Suppose a survey comes your way which looks like this:
  • What is your monthly mileage?
  • What percentage of it is off-road?
  • If offered with an off-road variant, how much would your offroad mileage increase to?
  • Would you use the offroad vehicle as a daily driver?
  • Select a suitable price range (<10L, 10-15L, 15-20L, >20L)
This is exactly where most go wrong. A 4x4 vehicle doesn't become a requirement only if the usage goes above 10 or 20 or 50 percent.

It is for those few hundred meters or just 5-10 meters where one can either test their vehicle's suspension or rock crawl out of there like a boss.
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