[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

As I think I've mentioned a couple of times before, if a crawler first has to substitute for a low range, one should also have a crawler reverse.

Yeah, it could have had that, if the reverse ratio was same as first gear. It isn't, the reverse ratio is only 3.81 compared 4.71 in first gear.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by Guna

How difficult will it be to come up with a differential design which allows only partial spinning (like in LSD)?

My Hexa AT has LSD. This is a boon and has got the vehicle out of so many sticky situations where a regular open diff 2wd car with have so easily gotten stuck. It even performed brilliantly in the snowy roads of Himachal where just about every car was helplessly spinning wheels and going nowhere.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

My Hexa AT has LSD. This is a boon and has got the vehicle out of so many sticky situations where a regular open diff 2wd car with have so easily gotten stuck. It even performed brilliantly in the snowy roads of Himachal where just about every car was helplessly spinning wheels and going nowhere

Technically this may not be an LSD. I think it is part of the traction control/electronic stability which works on selective braking, but works like a LSD nevertheless.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by Guna

Technically this may not be an LSD. I think it is part of the traction control/electronic stability which works on selective braking, but works like a LSD nevertheless.

There is nothing to come up with.
LSD has been invented, and Tata Safari also had it. But it also meant more cost and clutch pack replacement every 40-50000kms

In the end it is all matter of cost and benefit. Will giving a locker to a family SUV increase sales enough to justify 600-700$ in additional costs?

[tomraven99]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUMNhzkXGck

A video showing comparison between the Compass and the Duster with tyre rollers. As expected both of them perform similarly.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by Guna

Technically this may not be an LSD. I think it is part of the traction control/electronic stability which works on selective braking, but works like a LSD nevertheless.

Hexa AT does not have traction control or ESP or selective braking. Just a proper mechanical LSD, and all Safaris and Hexas have it.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Usually, 4WD Low refers to additional torque multiplication provided by the transfer case gear....

..... Even if you consider the Trailhawk's 350 Nm of torque vs the Thar’s 247 Nm, by having half the crawl ratio of the Thar, the Trailhawk appears to be a weaker offroader on paper....

Its not only about torque, which newer cars have plenty, I think the very important factor which differentiates an offroader or not is the low-ratio, and thats not only because of the higher torque, its mainly because you can drive the vehicle slower.
Most of the crawling will be in idle rpm and the Thar CRDe is already a very fast crawler than a good offroader. If the Compass is faster, that just means its not meant to crawl a.k.a not really 'trail rated', if you want to come back in one piece.

Originally Posted by Sutripta

...
To me the main purpose of a low range is not to send humungous tree stump pulling torque to the wheels, but to send sufficient torque to the wheels to get vehicle moving at very low speeds in difficult conditions.....

+1

Originally Posted by Samurai

..
Among 2WD vehicles, the RWD makes better offroader than FWD. That is because while climbing, most weight is on the rear wheel, and very little on front wheel. What is the point in having all the torque in the front wheel, which will have little traction? Therefore, FWD vehicles suck at offloading.

Not really.. Compare the Maruti 800 and the Maruti Omni, which is a better offroader?

Do you know that the humble 800 is so capable, that it goes even where 2WD Jeeps cant? Where as the Omni, which is pretty much the same, except for the rear drive, gets stuck at every possible point.

The very important rule to keep in the back of your mind while driving with a RWD 2WD vehicle, is never drive down an incline or even a small slope where you might need to reverse. You WILL get stuck.

My vote goes to FWD as the better offroader.

[Waspune]

Originally Posted by PrideRed

At 35L on road in Bangalore, this is almost in Fortuner/Endeavour territory and one should probably wait for couple more months for discounts to pour in.

Actually it might be the other way around. The Trailhawk already is BS6 compliant so the it's price already factors in the BS6 cost. While for other SUVs like Fortuner and Endy the BS6 cost is yet to be factored in. So, April'2020 onwards the price difference between Trailhawk and the big daddies will only increase!

Originally Posted by headers

Nice information about the crawl. Sad to note that driver skill is being replaced by electronics, wheel sensors and computer algorithms!! :(

Well thé same thing is happening in 2wd cars segment as well with the advent of DSGs/DCTs. It's a world of electronics now even in the field of hot hatches and sport cars.
We now prioritize convenience over driver involvement across the segments of cars.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Not really.. Compare the Maruti 800 and the Maruti Omni, which is a better offroader?

Are we still talking about climbing?

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Its not only about torque, which newer cars have plenty, I think the very important factor which differentiates an offroader or not is the low-ratio, and thats not only because of the higher torque, its mainly because you can drive the vehicle slower.

I used to own a CJ340 with a crawl ratio of 52. So I understand what you are saying. As evident in the videos, Trailhawk at 1st gear can crawl really slow in level ground and while climbing, no issues at all. But it can't crawl downhill and relies on braking and HDC, which I was not happy about.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Are we still talking about climbing?

Assuming offroading is not only torque and climbing, I'm talking about if you need a vehicle to tackle all kinds of terrain. Also, even if its climbing, remember you have to come down an incline you climbed.

Well, if you pin point only one obstacle and thats climbing a hill, only those RWD which have some weight in the rear will behave better than a FWD, whereas Omni, Gypsy likes will still fare bad when compared to the 800.

I was talking about the overall practicality of FWD vs RWD.

btw, great write up and detailed explanation on relevant points. Rated 5 stars.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Also, even if its climbing, remember you have to come down an incline you climbed.

If you can't climb, you don't have to worry about coming down.

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Well, if you pin point only one obstacle and thats climbing a hill, only those RWD which have some weight in the rear will behave better than a FWD, whereas Omni, Gypsy likes will still fare bad when compared to the 800.

I was talking about the overall practicality of FWD vs RWD.

Frankly, I have not dared to take a Maruti 800 or Omni on slippery trail. My remarks were based on how Coffee estate Jeep drivers switch to RWD while coming downhill. Take Jeep taxis in Kodachadri, every one of them are 2WD (RWD) Jeeps climbing up and down 10 times a day, while carrying 10-12 people in the back.

If you are considering level roads, you are right. The weight will be mostly on front wheels, if there is no heavy load in the rear. The Omni/800 are hardly load carriers. I was thinking about load carriers and climbing, where the weight is on the rear.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

There is nothing to come up with.
LSD has been invented, and Tata Safari also had it. But it also meant more cost and clutch pack replacement every 40-50000kms

What I meant is, improving the regular differentials on mainstream cars which mimic the LSD behavior. LSD must be expensive and that is probably the reason not many cars (even SUVs) don't have it.

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

Hexa AT does not have traction control or ESP or selective braking. Just a proper mechanical LSD, and all Safaris and Hexas have it.

We are talking about the Hexa AT, which is RWD and not the manual 4X4. Does it have LSD?

@mods, did not realize back to back posting. Kindly merge them.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by Guna

We are talking about the Hexa AT, which is RWD and not the manual 4X4. Does it have LSD?

Yes. Hexa XTA. Rear wheel drive with no ESP or traction control. LSD is standard fitment.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by Samurai

... Jeep taxis in Kodachadri[/url], every one of them are 2WD (RWD) Jeeps climbing up and down 10 times a day, while carrying 10-12 people in the back...

A loaded Jeep/Gypsy/Omni behaves very different than a vehicle with only driver. The load helps overcome the shortcoming. My comment was based on if you just consider a plain vehicle. Taking your example, I'd think an 800 will behave better than an unloaded Gypsy/Omni along the Kodachadri hills. (Not that I've been there, so, no idea terrain)

[PapaBravo]

Superb review Samurai. The details with which you have explained and compared the cars is phenomenonal. This is what makes TeamBHP different.

I have a few observations :

1. Compass Trailhawk is a great off-road vehicle.

2. It somehow feels that Jeep underplayed while launching the regular compass then removed the front bumper lip, put in a underbody protection plate and gave an diff transmission and called it a Trailhawk. There are no radical changes so to say.

3. The hill descent function is scary. I hope it can be switched off. Locking 4 wheels is suicidal if you are coming down a snowy hill hairpin bend. A situation like this



4. I own a Duster 4WD and have done decent amount of offroading on the same. I believe the capability of Compass would be almost same as Duster.

5. Good to see some company is thinking of 4WD enthusiasts.

Cheers

Pawan