[ringoism]

After the DC called for a week's closure of all schools after the devastating floods here back in July/August, I decided that we needed to get out. The kids already had finished a week of summer break, and I figured the worst any of us could do would be to sit around the house another seven days. Had been hoping and dreaming since 2007 (!) when we'd done the arduous trip to Parum via Kargil, that I'd one day be able to do it more easily via Darcha, the road for which had already been planned/surveyed and begun in a few places.

Well, it took 16 years but it finally happened, and what a lovely time it turned out to be for us all!

As noted, car did phenomenally well. Just so nice to be able to cruise along on the worst and most undulated of unpaved roads, sometimes at speed, yet not reallly feel as though the car were being pressed or abused at alll.

Will put up just two pics here as a preview / teaser... And hopefully get to post others and a bit of text later, probably after arriving in MZ, as most were taken on a compact camera and I've not transferred them to the phone yet.

Wonderful place though.

Regards,
Eric

[ringoism]

Just back from nearly 9,000km's done - for the second year in a row, from Manali to MZ and back, with 1,000km's of added explorations in very remote and less developed parts of Maraland, in the far south of Mizoram.

Would have liked to have done a proper writeup, but there is simply not going to be time for that - lots of backlog around here, and as good as it is to share these experiences, there are other priorities and if I'm honest, would probably rather spend another three days out there somewhere travelling vs. sitting behind a screen editing photos, recalling details, writing on and on... so just a bit to whet the appetite here.

We headed out with no definite route in mind, no hotel bookings, no specified night stopovers. This may seem crazy considering we were a family and would be travelling through unknown places, but circumstances pretty much demanded it: Conflicting info (from the Noida traffic police info line themselves) re: the possibility of taking a 10+ y-o diesel on NCR's EPE had us cancel our plans to head southwards and travel through RJ to Gwalior, Jhansi, and generally central route via MP, CG, OR and back up through WB into the NE. Which would have been nearly 4,000km's in total. We'd been so busy with work in December, then sick with lingering flu, and now with the route restrictions adding more hours and complications, we finally figured it'd be best to just "beeline" it via the shortest route, drive night & day as long as we felt fit, rest/ eat wherever (even in the car) only as needed, stop and see just a bit along the way to actually experience and learn something, especially for the kids' sakes.

Left 27th Dec. late night, drove a couple days and nights through bad fog and ridiculous UP highway conditions - due to both poorly marked construction zones and also the fact that nobody's bothered about how 4-lane divided highways are supposed to work: Even on huge, new six-lanes like the Lucknow Bypass, where heavy trucks would be lumbering along in the fast lane IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION!!!

...Yet by God's grace, after 4-1/2 days and maybe ~75 hrs on-road time in total, we arrived safe and sound to our relatives' joy and surprise at Aizawl early afternoon New Year's Day! We had slept in the car roadside or at petrol pumps at a few points, and were happy to see a substantial police presence out patrolling or parked with lights flashing, all across Bihar and West Bengal in the wee hours, even on some surprisingly small/narrow and desolate little roads that GMaps chose to take us on. Through that blinding fog. Kudos to law enforcement personnel out there and whomever has put them there, this sort of travel would have been highly inadvisable in many places some years ago.

Thankfully no real mishaps, though in the fog I did directly hit a high curb hard once, probably at 40kmph. And another time launched off the high concrete slab into the mud at the end of a construction area where no signs had been there to
direct. Also skidded and nearly rammed into a car that hadn't seen the (construction) shifted lanes of a 4-lane and had driven over and got stuck on a concrete barrier. While stopped and connecting a tow-strap to pull him off, we ourselves nearly got hit by a bus that skidded to a stop in the gravel just behind us. God saved us, I'm sure. All this in UP. Crazy place. Pray hard to the right God before venturing there haplessly, especially in these conditions.


No damage to the car in any event, which could not have been said if it were something with a low bumper, low GC, and less robust steering and suspension. Pretty "adventurous" going, but not really what I had in mind!!!

So route outbound was generally:

Manali-Ambala-Haridwar-Bareilly-Ayodhya (night & a morning), Kushinagar (night & a half day), Jalpaiguri, Guwahati, Silchar (night stay), Aizawl.

Within MZ we did some amazing roads of best and worst conditions, some really tough 4x4 jungle jeep trails filled with mud and water and broad, sweeping new highways being built for the Kaladan Project links... Anyway there it was roughly Aizawl-Hmuifang-Lunglei -Castle of Beinu -Lawngtlai -Palak Dil (wetlands preserve), Lungpuk, Serkawr, Saiha, South Vanlaipai, Tuipui D (ferry crossing), and back to Aizawl. Just wonderful. Much easier and much more fulfilling if you know people there, though. Very few if any tourist facilities, Google Maps is often useless or directly misguiding, and even my wife and sisters-in-law started getting a bit lost as the language on signage changed from Mizo to Mara... But would do it all again in a heartbeat. Grueling, but just fabulous. And this Getaway was just the perfect tool for the job. There were six of us with a weeks' worth of luggage, camping and cooking gear, We put a mattress in back and the kids and aunts took turns relaxing/ sleeping back there as we went along.

Coming to late Feb, we'd thought to return via central India since we'd missed friends there outbound, but an unexpected wedding invite at Nepalganj took us by a more northerly route again: This time Aizawl- Guwahati- Siliguri (2night stay), Darjeeling, Bari Pahadi (at Bihar Sharif), Nalanda (+night stay) Rajgir, Rupaidiha (night), Roorkee, Ambala, Kharar (night), Pinjore, Nalagarh, Manali.

Just great.

Car was perfect but for a broken spring leaf (after hauling near a tonne ofmcow manure for our orchard in MZ over some very bad unpaved construction sections. Easily replaced at home with father-in-law's help using a shortened Tata 407 piece of same thickness, about ₹800. And a headlamp relay fried, fortunately in daytime, replacement was found at first place inquired, and popped into its slot in less than a minute.

The car is just about perfect for our kind of travel. Great comfort, offroad capability, space, versatility, rugged reliability. Wished it managed a bit better FE, but I do tend to drive briskly and the car likes that - and as they say, "You wanna play, you have to pay". I don't think ANY vehicle could have done a better job of it, certainly not one with such good service and spares support in the remoter corners, much less at the price we bought it.

If I get time will transfer a few pics from the dashcam so you can get a driver's seat view of all it took us through.

Regards,
Eric

[ringoism]

A few technical notes to add:

* Car crossed 125k km's our final day.


FE notes:

NH: ~12kmpl w/o AC, ~11+with;
EXPY @ 115kmph & AC ~ 10
MZ twisting/steep roads/off-road: 8.5

Best: 13.5 - NH at low speed in fog;
Worst: 7.6 - MZ hauling nearly a tonne of manure, + <5min. cold runs in town, w/ very steep gradients.

As noted earlier, I drive for performance vs. economy, and someone with a lighter foot could improve on some of these figures.

A staff member at the Aizawl ASC told me the 8.5 figure was actually quite good for MZ conditions, where everything suffers relatively poor FE there. Father-in-law's Wagon-R Stingray shows a mere 11.5kmpl as a longterm avg mostly in-town, without A/C.

Gearbox had been rebuilt (due to in-gear noise) at Bhuntar ASC just a couple weeks before leaving. Fifth gear and the output roller bearing showed damage and were replaced. A light whine in 2/3/5 remains but none of the former growl/roughness. Glad we got it done, real failure could have been possible out there.

Experimented a bit with removing the MAF sensor connector, as several have claimed it provides better low-end grunt without affecting FE (CRDe torque thread). Basically this hack forces the ECU to assume a default "normal" airflow curve based on rpm, throttle position, and 20° ambient.. Can say that yes, it really works and helps prevent clutch-burning when starting on steep gradients, reduces need to downshift as much, makes 3rd gear much more flexible, allows for lower-rpm shift points. And didn't increase fuel consumption very significantly if at all.

Downsides are that this also disables the ambient air temp sensor, prevents any compensation as filter becomes progressively clogged, moreover cannot compensate for altitude. AND the midrange seems to me to suffer some power loss, apart from anything below 1500rpm, just feels less lively /less fun to drive. So I finally re-connected. But anyway it points to the reality that the car could be helped significantly by a good re-map, at least for hill driving.

I may cut a choice wire there and install a switch on the dash so that when I really want/need that bit of grunt it'll be there. The temp sensor would also not be affected in this case.

As to evaluating and comparing this to other options, incl. those we'd thought of prior to purchase:

1. Mobilio/ Duster / Terrano: Apart from the serious off-road/landslide zone/mud jungle track portions, they would have worked, and saved us a bunch on fuel. But those portions were many. Which is to say the travel budget would be enhanced, but places to travel would be more limited.

2. Either of the above with trailer: Might have enabled the manure-hauling, but now besides the off-rosd limitations, lots of steep gradients, tight manoevers, and higher speeds would have to be avoided. Legitimate safety /legality concerns are there.

3. Xenon: Considerably better FE claimed, varying opinions & experiences re: dursbility/ reliability of components; 2nd row definitely not ok for adults on long runs (main deal-breaker), bit rougher ride quality, spares supply more challenging.

4. V-Cross: Initial cost & spares/ svc network esp. in NE.

5. Yeti - Still my dream car but driving 9k kms without seeing one (actually hardly seeing Skodas at all) underscores the fundamental risks of trying to use one for long-distance family travel & exploration.

6. Getaway 4x4 with mHawk vs. CRDe: Having driven a Scorp 4wd 'Hawk of same year, I don't think performance would be much better, but FE would. Would probably have to pay at least a couple lakhs more for one than what this one cost us. Hard to find, and the mHawks are not as tolerant of abuse / overheating as the old CRDe. Have seen a number of those engines apart now. And it probably can't be converted to a manual pump (for supreme reliability) like the CRDe can.

So I think we made the right choice here, and enjoying the drive pretty much every time.

-Eric

[vivekdewanta]

Originally Posted by ringoism

6. Getaway 4x4 with mHawk vs. CRDe: Having driven a Scorp 4wd 'Hawk of the same year, I don't think performance would be much better, but FE would. Would probably have to pay at least a couple lakhs more for one than what this one cost us. Hard to find, and the hawks are not as tolerant of abuse/overheating as the old CRDe. Have seen a number of those engines apart now. And it probably can't be converted to a manual pump (for supreme reliability) like the CRDe can.

So I think we made the right choice here, and enjoying the drive pretty much every time.

-Eric

Eric, I've been following your 4WD journey from the Mahindra Marshal to the Getaway. Your expertise and understanding of vehicles are admirable. I have a couple of questions regarding your vehicles. Have you considered installing a differential locker or MLD? If not, what are your thoughts on implementing this mechanism to enhance your vehicle's performance?

In my opinion, MLD is way better than a 4WD with an open differential.

This kit is all about reliability. It's got no fancy wires or sensors, just good old-fashioned mechanics. That means you can trust it to work when you need it most, even in the roughest terrain.

Installing the MLD Differential Kit is a breeze. Whether you're a DIY enthusiast or a professional, you'll have it up and running in no time.

Made to handle whatever you throw at it, the MLD Kit is built to last. It's like having a trusty sidekick on every off-road adventure – reliable, durable, and always ready for action.

Fun fact – Mahindra Scorpio and Gateway share a lot of parts. That means if you're driving one, the MLD Kit will fit like a glove on both.

Looking forward to having your thoughts on this MLD system.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by vivekdewanta

Eric. Have you considered installing a differential locker or MLD? If not, what are your thoughts on implementing this mechanism to enhance your vehicle's performance?

In my opinion, MLD is way better than a 4WD with an open differential.

I appreciate your asking, I may have covered this earlier, certainly have thought about it.

The Limited-Slip Differential as fitted on export models and the 2014-up Thar CRDe is a direct fit, yes they were offered over-the-counter at M&M at one time at a very tempting price. This increased later to beyond what I'd call reasonable / feasible, but they are available salvaged for around ₹12k from sources I'm in touch with, assuming one could be located.

I agree that in many situations this would improve performance considerably. In snow (which we see a lot of) it's a bit of a two-edged sword, as it aids in moving forward (or back) but also introduces greater chance of fishtailing/ rear-end moving sideways in slippery stuff, which is usually unhelpful and sometimes dangerous.

Manual lockers as the Gurkha has had are better in terms of allowing more control, it only needs to be engaged when truly needed. Though no OE Mahindra application used these and if available aftermarket they would expensive.

Other thing is that LSD's that use clutch-packs tend to decrease FE slightly as there is some increased mechanical drag in turns.

As for "lunchbox" and other types of "true" lockers, their behavior can be more harsh and less predictable. And I do prefer predictability and less harshness, as the latter is hard on other droveline parts and moreover this is a family vehicle.

Am still planning for the LSD but couldn't find locally, and would want to be able to personally check out any secondhand unit before sent from a distant source.

-Eric

[vivekdewanta]

Originally Posted by ringoism

I appreciate your asking, I may have covered this earlier, certainly have thought about it.

The Limited-Slip Differential as fitted on export models and the 2014-up Thar CRDe is a direct fit, yes they were offered over-the-counter at M&M at one time at a very tempting price. This increased later to beyond what I'd call reasonable / feasible, but they are available salvaged for around ₹12k from sources I'm in touch with, assuming one could be located.

I agree that in many situations this would improve performance considerably. In snow (which we see a lot of) it's a bit of a two-edged sword, as it aids in moving forward (or back) but also introduces greater chance of fishtailing/ rear-end moving sideways in slippery stuff, which is usually unhelpful and sometimes dangerous.

Manual lockers as the Gurkha has had are better in terms of allowing more control, it only needs to be engaged when truly needed. Though no OE Mahindra application used these and if available aftermarket they would expensive.

Other thing is that LSD's that use clutch-packs tend to decrease FE slightly as there is some increased mechanical drag in turns.

As for "lunchbox" and other types of "true" lockers, their behavior can be more harsh and less predictable. And I do prefer predictability and less harshness, as the latter is hard on other droveline parts and moreover this is a family vehicle.

Am still planning for the LSD but couldn't find locally, and would want to be able to personally check out any secondhand unit before sent from a distant source.

-Eric

Well LSD and MLD are two different concepts here. LSD is something which is equipped with clutch pack and less success rate as it created the tention on either side of the axel inside the crown. Contrary MLD is all mechanical system which locks up the spider gears inside the crown at certain RPM and unlocks itself after particular speed is acquired.
In short MLD is a mechanical locking device. It locks the axles once the locking conditions are met. Then both axles turn at the same speed. The beauty of MLD is that it allows both axles to turn in different speeds still providing traction and hence maintaining the line of the vehicle.

Maybe this video will help explain the concept much better.

https://youtu.be/VLEFerXnJQI?si=J3ysA5qF2NebQ3qQ

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by vivekdewanta

Well LSD and MLD are two different concepts here.

Yes, am aware of the technical and performance differences, I thought I had addressed those in my post.

Either one can increase the tendency of the car to fishtail. Air-locker, well, ok, that's different, but not willing to spend a lakh plus on this when the car has done all we needed it to in pretty significantly bad offroad and snow consitions till now. I am not sure whether the Thars were equipped with an LSD or true locker, not seen yet in the flesh and better to not depend on marketing hype.

For me, only secondhand Thar unit or new "lunchbox locker" (check eBay) are within range of what I'd want to spend for this upgrade. Latter might be getting a little heavy to carry in suitcase from U.S.

For our purposes an LSD would probably be better, as the relatively harsh / unpredictable engagement of true lockers makes them less suitable for everyday family transportation, ESPECIALLY in the snow-belt.

Now I KNOW I'm being repetitive... I'm middle-aged, not quite senile!!!

On that note, no offense to either of us, but I was doing nice long burnouts through second gear with my GM 12-bolt positrack and 5.7L V8 ram-air W-31 Oldsmobile near about 40 years ago... I am not exactly new to this... admit that in those days most of the "lockers" we knew about involved some welding skills .

-Eric

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by vivekdewanta

...The beauty of MLD is that it allows both axles to turn in different speeds still providing traction and hence maintaining the line of the vehicle....

Originally Posted by ringoism

...
Either one can increase the tendency of the car to fishtail. ...

What Eric has said here is very true. MLD's do not help to maintain the line of the vehicle and will tend to generate Yaw (Fishtail). This happens because, when the MLD acts, all the torque is suddenly applied to one rear wheel wheel. This will be particularly dangerous in Snow driving.

Eric, the Thar CRDE never came with LSD's. Always MLD's. You can look at the Lockrite lockers, which are cheap (~$150) and will lock before any fishtailing happens. It is easier to control than the Eaton MLD's off-road. However, they tend to stick on turns too, which the MLD's will not.

[vivekdewanta]

Originally Posted by dhanushs

What Eric has said here is very true. MLD's do not help to maintain the line of the vehicle and will tend to generate Yaw (Fishtail). This happens because, when the MLD acts, all the torque is suddenly applied to one rear wheel wheel. This will be particularly dangerous in Snow driving.

MLDs, while beneficial on fresh and deep snow, might pose challenges on ice or light snow, potentially leading to fishtailing in your vehicle. However, in snowy conditions, they can aid a 2WD vehicle in navigating such terrain, albeit with some exertion.

Engagement of an MLD typically requires a certain amount of wheel spin, which can trigger fishtailing. Once engaged, it locks up both wheels—whether front or rear (if equipped with MLD)—forcing them to rotate at the same speed. This engagement persists until the RPM drops slightly.

To mitigate fishtailing, adjustments to the locker mechanism can be made. For instance, in a video demonstration, a person managed to fine-tune the engagement of lockers on their GM truck, resulting in reduced fishtailing during burnouts. Viewing the video provides insights into these adjustment techniques.

https://youtu.be/AJqX_CKuVRU?si=oKTgnbvJdw-58uIY&t=368

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Eric, the Thar CRDE never came with LSD's. Always MLD's. You can look at the Lockrite lockers, which are cheap (~$150) and will lock before any fishtailing happens. It is easier to control than the Eaton MLD's off-road. However, they tend to stick on turns too, which the MLDs will not.

Eaton Corporation, an American brand, serves as a primary manufacturer of Mechanical Locking Differentials (MLD), eLockers, and air lockers, supplying these components to Mahindra in India. Notably, Eaton also produces eLockers specifically designed for front-wheel-drive vehicles, catering to the preferences of the Indian market.

Previously, MLD was a standard feature across all variants of the 4x4 models. However, the availability of MLD has undergone a change, with it now being offered only as an option exclusively on the top-spec LX diesel variants of the Thar. This adjustment reflects a strategic shift, as the MLD feature has been omitted from the Thar's petrol variant due to the predominant preference among customers for the diesel-powered variant, particularly for off-road excursions.

Originally Posted by ringoism

For me, only secondhand Thar unit or new "lunchbox locker" (check eBay) are within range of what I'd want to spend for this upgrade. Latter might be getting a little heavy to carry in suitcase from U.S.

For our purposes an LSD would probably be better, as the relatively harsh / unpredictable engagement of true lockers makes them less suitable for everyday family transportation, ESPECIALLY in the snow-belt.

Upon reviewing Lockrite and Lunchbox lockers, I've noticed they offer similar mechanisms to Eaton's but at a slightly lower cost. However, my investigation also extends to whether any Indian original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) provide these lockers as factory options. I intend to conduct thorough research on this matter soon.

Interestingly, there have been instances where certain family vehicles have come equipped with Mechanical Locking Differentials (MLD) straight from the factory. For instance, during the launch of the TUV 300, there were reports of low articulation issues leading to wheels spinning and getting stuck easily. To address this, Mahindra initiated a recall program. Some vehicles received raised shockers, while others were equipped with MLD systems.

Subsequently, when the Bolero Neo (formerly known as the TUV300) was introduced, Mahindra incorporated MLD as a standard feature in higher variants. For a comprehensive understanding of this MLD implementation, refer to the discussions on the forum linked below:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...al-review.html (Mahindra TUV300 : Official Review)

This case highlights the proactive approach taken by Mahindra to address off-road performance concerns in their vehicles, ultimately enhancing customer satisfaction and safety.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by vivekdewanta

... as the MLD feature has been omitted from the Thar's petrol variant due to the predominant preference among customers for the diesel-powered variant, particularly for off-road excursions.

Trust me NO. Also, Thar petrol sometimes outshines the Diesel. Drive one, you will understand.

To mitigate fishtailing, adjustments to the locker mechanism can be made. ..

This will cause on-road problems.

I've noticed they offer similar mechanisms to Eaton's but at a slightly lower cost.

More than cost, the tech and hence performance is whats differentiating.

--------------------------------

btw, Eric, you can explore Lambda lockers, which will cost you ~35-40k. Driver actuated ones (Cable).

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by dhanushs

--------------------------------

btw, Eric, you can explore Lambda lockers, which will cost you ~35-40k. Driver actuated ones (Cable).

I have not had any trouble with the lockers on either of my Thars but I could certainly see where somebody could have. Up here in the mountains you have some narrow crowned roads that run atop ridges. You can take a nasty fall left or right if you mess up. You really don't want your locked differentials busily screwing your backend right down the freakin' mountain. I would opt for driver actuated lockers if I could get them, maybe even at the cost of increased wear of the diffs upon normal usage.

Way back in the dark ages, trucks and busses operating in snow areas sometime were equipped with sand dispensers that would drop small amounts of sand via a lever the driver operated. The sand would fall right in front of the tires and provide traction. Railroad locomotives have been doing this trick for decades and decades.

But if the weather gets too bad out there, I am just gonna stay home and tickle mama.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by dhanushs

btw, Eric, you can explore Lambda lockers, which will cost you ~35-40k. Driver actuated ones (Cable).

I like this idea best technically speaking, it offers the most control. Use it only when you really want/need it, no nasty surprises when you don't, and no harsh shocks to the driveline upon engagement, which I feel may have longer-term mechanical consequences. Have used manual locker in a Gurkha with great effect. Not cheap though.

I was at the Mahindra ASC at Bhuntar picking up some other parts today, checked on the cost of the Thar locker new and it is up to ₹34k & change. So either of these is too much for me considering the car's age/ current value and the number of times it would actually be likely to save us during the likely duration of ownership.

Was quoted something like ₹9-12k from salvage for the Thar Eaton unit, which I feel is very reasonable, though whether anyone within a couple hundred km's of here can be trusted to set up the gear backlash and etc is another question.

The Lockrite's also sound very appealing price-wise.

But presently am of two minds re: any automatic lockers as long as we're in the snow-belt. Maybe need to read up a little more re: drivers' experiences with the Thar units in Spiti winter tours etc.

But some very telling comments here:

https://forums.off-road.com/threads/...nd-ice.173139/


Other than the yaw, lockers (even LSD's, if truth be told) can also actually induce (sudden) oversteer on turns, since if/when they have locked, wheels have to turn at same exact speed, vs. their being allowed to turn at two different speeds as required in turns (that was what differentials were invented for, after all!). So slippage between tyres and road is in such cases inevitable, ans when that traction is broken, things get unstable. It's hard to say when proper grip is going to be regained, because we don't really have control over when the locker disengages, either. Most important general rule of effective snow driving is to never break traction, so this just seems pretty unhelpful overall. Might keep you from getting stuck, but at the cost of control?

There have been many, many cars and light trucks in the North American market equipped with LSD's the past sixty years or so - and having owned/driven a couple of these there, can say that any hardcore OTR limitations notwithstanding, they really do help keep a car moving forward in snow - or down the dragstrip, road/slalom course, etc, vs open diffs... and they are quite transparent in operation besides. On the other hand, I don't know of any vehicle that ever came with automatic mechanical lockers there. I think their harsh unpredictability may have been assessed by carmakers to pose unacceptable safety and warranty risks in a context where the snow-belt represents a lot bigger (and more litigious) population than India's.

I don't suppose the Gurkha's rear manual locking unit is anything like the Dana 44 design - or that I'd be able to find a salvage one (a pity)?

-Eric