[ex670c]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I also considered replacing the starter motor with a brand new one. It is one of the rare parts in my Jeep that is still not replaced. But Sachin tells me that is not a good idea. Apparently older starter motors are more reliable than the new stuff. So I am only getting the starter motor serviced.

I must have missed it. I wasn't aware of this until this weekend.

Hi Sharath,

When you are getting is serviced, please change the Solenoid Switch, new one will be in the Range of Rs400-Rs800.

Also service the Older switch and keep is as a spare.

Regards,

Arka

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Dear Sharath - please get the starter motor attended to by a "really good" auto electrician who knows his job and enjoys his work (a rare breed!). I am fortunate to have had two of them doing all my cars, now one is moving out of Mumbai and one has shifted 30 kms away from my house. The parts of the sterter motor that you may find "duplicate" will be armature (locally rewound, less number of turns, out of specification winding wire), field coil (ditto), drive gear (aftermarket, typical Kashmiri Gate Delhi part), shaft bushes (free cutting brass instead of phosphor bronze), aftermarket mounting snout with bushes loose in their seats, ID spoilt by tagging to somehow make the bush fit, "duplicate" solenoid switch locally known as "starter ka bachcha" etc. Do not compromise at all, it's not worth the effort. Please put brand new original Lucas TVS parts only. Knowing your CL340's condition when you bought it, I would'nt be at all surprised if you found all sorts of "duplicate" parts in the starter motor.

I hope you have changed the battery +ve and -ve terminals exactly as I told you to do somewhere in this thread. Please do everything perfectly as per the instructions, otherwise your vehicle's starter motor will not work properly. If for any reason, 12 volts does not reach the motor, it cannot work.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by ex670c

When you are getting is serviced, please change the Solenoid Switch, new one will be in the Range of Rs400-Rs800.

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

"duplicate" solenoid switch locally known as "starter ka bachcha" etc. Do not compromise at all, it's not worth the effort. Please put brand new original Lucas TVS parts only.

For a moment I was confused because I remember changing the solenoid switch when my Jeep had a breakdown last year on a dark and stormy night.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-v...ml#post1991395 (Mahindra CJ340 joins Team-BHP family)

Then I remembered that there is a solenoid switch as part of the starter motor too.

Why these two different parts are called solenoid switch? The one next to the FIP actually controls the fuel flow, that is called solenoid switch. Then there is the relay in starter circuit, even that is called solenoid switch.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Starting problem is back. Some times it starts at first crank, sometimes it clicks a few times.

You should have checked this out when it was pointed to you the last time around itself! Not everything is a mystery in jeeps, click click is classic case of something wrong with starter. This is true for most cars. A bad battery will first give symptoms like sluggish starter, dimming lights etc before click click.

The starter and clutch trick is an age old one, i learned it from my dad. But is not recommended all the time coz sometime it messes up the starter/flywheel teeth. Anyways push start itself is an exception.

Originally Posted by Samurai

I also considered replacing the starter motor with a brand new one. It is one of the rare parts in my Jeep that is still not replaced.
=======
But Sachin tells me that is not a good idea. Apparently older starter motors are more reliable than the new stuff. So I am only getting the starter motor serviced.

This is purely a personal call, what i believe and experienced so far is that a newer product if it is the right one and from a reputed brand does not mean its inferior in anyway. Finding it for a jeep will be the tough part.

But on the other hand if you have a master craftsman you can rebuild old ones also and make it last pretty well.

The key thing in a starter set up (esp for a offroad 4x4) is how best you can make it water proof, be it old or new and that will determine how long it will last.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Why these two different parts are called solenoid switch? The one next to the FIP actually controls the fuel flow, that is called solenoid switch. Then there is the relay in starter circuit, even that is called solenoid switch.

Both the switches are of solenoid type? In FIP its used for fuel control, in starter its for starter actuation. Two different purpose using same type of switch (solenoid type switch)??

EDIT: I guess i was right, wiki shows different types of solenoid switch to the end of the page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solenoid

Electromechanical solenoids


A 1920 explanation of a commercial solenoid used as an electromechanical actuator
Electromechanical solenoids consist of an electromagnetically inductive coil, wound around a movable steel or iron slug (termed the armature). The coil is shaped such that the armature can be moved in and out of the center, altering the coil's inductance and thereby becoming an electromagnet. The armature is used to provide a mechanical force to some mechanism (such as controlling a pneumatic valve). Although typically weak over anything but very short distances, solenoids may be controlled directly by a controller circuit, and thus have very low reaction times.
The force applied to the armature is proportional to the change in inductance of the coil with respect to the change in position of the armature, and the current flowing through the coil (see Faraday's law of induction). The force applied to the armature will always move the armature in a direction that increases the coil's inductance.
Electromechanical solenoids are commonly seen in electronic paintball markers, pinball machines, dot matrix printers and fuel injectors.

[edit]Rotary solenoid
The rotary solenoid is an electromechanical device used to rotate a ratcheting mechanism when power is applied. These were used in the 1950s for rotary snap-switch automation in electromechanical controls. Repeated actuation of the rotary solenoid advances the snap-switch forward one position. Two rotary actuators on opposite ends of the rotary snap-switch shaft, can advance or reverse the switch position.
The rotary solenoid has a similar appearance to a linear solenoid, except that the core is mounted in the center of a large flat disk, with two or three inclined grooves cut into the underside of the disk. These grooves align with slots on the solenoid body, with ball bearings in the grooves.
When the solenoid is activated, the core is drawn into the coil, and the disk rotates on the ball bearings in the grooves as it moves towards the coil body. When power is removed, a spring on the disk rotates it back to its starting position, also pulling the core out of the coil.
The rotary solenoid was invented in 1944 by George H. Leland, of Dayton, Ohio, to provide a more reliable and shock/vibration tolerant release mechanism for air-dropped bombs. Previously used linear (axial) solenoids were prone to inadvertent releases. U.S. Patent number 2,496,880 describes the electromagnet and inclined raceways that are the basis of the invention. Leland's engineer, Earl W. Kerman, was instrumental in developing a compatible bomb release shackle that incorporated the rotary solenoid. Bomb shackles of this type are found in a B-29 aircraft fuselage on display at the National Museum of the USAF in Dayton, Ohio.
[edit]Rotary voice coil
This is a rotational version of a solenoid. Typically the fixed magnet is on the outside, and the coil part moves in an arc controlled by the current flow through the coils. Rotary voice coils are widely employed in devices such as disk drives.

[edit]Pneumatic solenoid valves
A pneumatic solenoid valve is a switch for routing air to any pneumatic device, usually an actuator, allowing a relatively small signal to control a large device. It is also the interface between electronic controllers and pneumatic systems.

[edit]Hydraulic solenoid valves
Hydraulic solenoid valves are in general similar to pneumatic solenoid valves except that they control the flow of hydraulic fluid (oil), often at around 3000 psi (210 bar, 21 MPa, 21 MN/m²). Hydraulic machinery uses solenoids to control the flow of oil to rams or actuators to (for instance) bend sheets of titanium in aerospace manufacturing. Solenoid-controlled valves are often used in irrigation systems, where a relatively weak solenoid opens and closes a small pilot valve, which in turn activates the main valve by applying fluid pressure to a piston or diaphragm that is mechanically coupled to the main valve. Solenoids are also in everyday household items such as washing machines to control the flow and amount of water into the drum.
Transmission solenoids control fluid flow through an automatic transmission and are typically installed in the transmission valve body.
[edit]Automobile starter solenoid

Main article: Starter solenoid
In a car or truck, the starter solenoid is part of an automobile starting system. The starter solenoid receives a large electric current from the car battery and a small electric current from the ignition switch. When the ignition switch is turned on (i.e. when the key is turned to start the car), the small electric current forces the starter solenoid to close a pair of heavy contacts, thus relaying the large electric current to the starter motor.
Starter solenoids can also be built into the starter itself, often visible on the outside of the starter. If a starter solenoid receives insufficient power from the battery, it will fail to start the motor, and may produce a rapid 'clicking' or 'clacking' sound. This can be caused by a low or dead battery, by corroded or loose connections in the cable, or by a broken or damaged positive (red) cable from the battery. Any of these will results in some power to the solenoid, but not enough to hold the heavy contacts closed, so the starter motor itself never spins, and the engine does not start.

[svsantosh]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Why these two different parts are called solenoid switch? The one next to the FIP actually controls the fuel flow, that is called solenoid switch. Then there is the relay in starter circuit, even that is called solenoid switch.

Jaggu went in great length ^^ to explain, but let me give it a shot from my experience with both these solenoids...

1) FIP solenoid - it is a electro mechanical switch that stops/allows flow of fuel controlled by the current supplied by the ignition key switch. Simply put it is a spring that expands and contracts to move forward and backward for that particular application.

(My experiments with FIP Solenoid here)

2) Starter Solenoid - similar purpose - the bendix (gear that rotates with HUGE force to turn the flywheel) - is pushed forward by a big SPRING when you turn the switch on "CRANK POSITION", and once the key comes back to "crank off, vehicle on" position - the spring is supposed to bring back the bendix "AWAY" from the flywheel. In badly maintained old vehicles, the bendix gets MATED with the flywheel (solenoid doesnt pull it BACK in) - causing smoke + fire!!

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Why these two different parts are called solenoid switch?

Hi,
This might sound pedantic and patronising. But it is not meant to be so.

An electric current (displacement of charge) will set up a magnetic field. If the current is along a coil (multiple turns in the same (clockwise or anticlockwise) direction) the field produced by each turn adds up. And ultimately it is strong enough to do some work. Like moving a magnetic material (a plunger etc) some distance. This coil is called a solenoid. How we utilise the movement of the plunger is what gives rise to the different uses of the solenoid. Common uses are in relays, valves, movement of mechanical stops etc.

(As an aside, nowadays I'm finding micromotors taking over the jobs once done by solenoids)

Regards
Sutripta

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

An electric current (displacement of charge) will set up a magnetic field. If the current is along a coil (multiple turns in the same (clockwise or anticlockwise) direction) the field produced by each turn adds up. And ultimately it is strong enough to do some work. Like moving a magnetic material (a plunger etc) some distance. This coil is called a solenoid. How we utilise the movement of the plunger is what gives rise to the different uses of the solenoid. Common uses are in relays, valves, movement of mechanical stops etc.

I understand why it is called solenoid. But why is it called a switch? Why not call one of them solenoid pump, and the other one as solenoid relay. The latter may qualify as a switch, but how is the fuel pumping solenoid a switch?

[Sutripta]

^^^
Solenoid valve/ fuel/engine shut off valve. And solenoid valve or simply solenoid is the term I use and generally heard being used. One has to understand by reference to context then I guess. Switch then might be a regional thing. Maybe because it switches the fuel supply/ engine off!

Regards
Sutripta

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I understand why it is called solenoid. But why is it called a switch? Why not call one of them solenoid pump, and the other one as solenoid relay. The latter may qualify as a switch, but how is the fuel pumping solenoid a switch?

Hi Sharath,

In a Solenoid switch a small current is used to close a connection through a plunger or breaker, to allow a larger current to flow through like in the Starter Motor or Electric Winch.

In the FIP the Solenoid actuates a Plunger which Physically stops fuel supply.

Regards,

Arka

[r_nairtvm]

@Samurai - Post # 1402

Sharat - I am giving below a kind of definition I found in Wikipedia. This might answer your specifi question

Quote:

The term solenoid refers specifically to a magnet designed to produce a uniform magnetic field in a volume of space

In engineering, the term solenoid may also refer to a variety of transducer devices that convert energy into linear motion. The term is also often used to refer to a solenoid valve, which is an integrated device containing an electromechanical solenoid which actuates either a pneumatic or hydraulic valve, or a solenoid switch, which is a specific type of relay that internally uses an electromechanical solenoid to operate an electrical switch; for example, an automobile starter solenoid, or a linear solenoid, which is an electromechanical solenoid

Unquote

I hope you are more confused now

Best Regards & Drive/Ride safe

Ram

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by ex670c

In a Solenoid switch a small current is used to close a connection through a plunger or breaker, to allow a larger current to flow through like in the Starter Motor or Electric Winch.

That is the classic definition of an electric relay.

Originally Posted by r_nairtvm

Quote:

The term solenoid refers specifically to a magnet designed to produce a uniform magnetic field in a volume of space

In engineering, the term solenoid may also refer to a variety of transducer devices that convert energy into linear motion. The term is also often used to refer to a solenoid valve, which is an integrated device containing an electromechanical solenoid which actuates either a pneumatic or hydraulic valve, or a solenoid switch, which is a specific type of relay that internally uses an electromechanical solenoid to operate an electrical switch; for example, an automobile starter solenoid, or a linear solenoid, which is an electromechanical solenoid

Unquote

I hope you are more confused now

Arrey Yaar, I know what a solenoid is, I even remember calculating the flux generated by the solenoid coil once upon a time. I did study electronic engineering once, although I never used most of it, except for telephony.

My problem is with calling the fuel plunger as a solenoid switch. For me switch is always something with two definite states.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Samurai

My problem is with calling the fuel plunger as a solenoid switch. For me switch is always something with two definite states.

Fuel plunger also has On and Off, ON where fuel is allowed to pass Off when fuel is cut off? Or is the other way around?

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by Samurai

My problem is with calling the fuel plunger as a solenoid switch. For me switch is always something with two definite states.

Hi,
Then nomenclature problem solved. It is not a proportional or servo valve. Has only two states: energised and deenergised.

What news of the self starter?

Regards
Sutripta

[Samurai]

IIRC, the old generation calling bells used the same solenoid principle.

Anyway, gave the Jeep for service today. Asked the mech to change the solenoid switch if he found it any less than good condition. He is going to service the starter motor too.

I am also toying with the idea of removing the plunger from the FIP solenoid...hmm... valve. I explained the idea the mech today, he was surprised why I wanted that.

This is what I want to try: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-v...ml#post2473302 (1990 M&M Cj340)

What are the downsides to this?

[svsantosh]

Originally Posted by Samurai

What are the downsides to this?

In the same page Sutripto says how vulnerable the jeep becomes without a FIP switch, but I also spoke of how even without the 'jay' branded key one can start a jeep in 30 seconds. So, security is the only grey area... The other issue being one extra step to switch off the jeep (Key + Pull lever)

Do u also remember Behrams idea started all this... I follow his recommendations blindly...

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...ml#post1991485

So, you can give him a call to know more...