[susan3004]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

It's a good thing that most of the world hasn't heard of the MM540 being more capable than a 70 series otherwise Toyota would be running scared and all the armies and farmers around the world driving the 70s would be ordering the Mahindra MM540 instead.

Interestingly, people outside India have heard about Mahindras. There are Mahindra outlets for civilian customers. I realised that the quality which they offer outside India is very different from what we get back home.
We have quality niggles for this product in Army also. No wonder everyone votes against it. I refer to the quality of mechanical and electrical parts which are supreme in other vehicles. I would also like to make a mention of the Leaf spings which broke after averaging about 150-200kms in this kind of a terrain.
The views of TLC being better are justified, however, Mahindra did better in a particular terrain.
Given a choice, we all would dump our Mahindras' for other brands because we are sure of the reliability factors. A small example to quote this is that our Military Mahindras wobble a lot. This concludes that the quality tests which were conducted to get this vehicle into commisioning wouldn't have been stingent enough or somebody down the chain has given it a clearance with "chalta hai" attitude!
The more sugar you add, the sweeter it gets... Toyotas are priced much higher than Mahindras.
Point to be considered is that even with all the drawbacks, Mahindra has perfomed, at least, better at pole vault! I wish, we could decide to improve the quality at the same price, so that it may be prefered by the talibans. That is just a thought.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by renamo

But whenever you hear our beloved mm540 , or not at all gettable 550, some section of the crowd here wants to declare its the best in the world, but they are hinting it, mentioning it, being very subtle at it. Just dont want to openly declare it, but sure wants to put the thought in all the readers mind. That is very very annoying.

Can you show us an example of what you are refering to? We do not want you annoyed...or para-annoyed.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Zak, most of us who frequent 4x4 section have seen the Major saab posing with various UN vehicles in Africa including the MM550. I think we can trust him with his claim.

The Army spec MM550 is specifically designed for off-road duty, if it did well in slush compared to a TLC II Series 70 according to the opinion of a professional soldier, let's be open to that possibility. He does admit TLC was better outside of slush. Ofcourse, anybody else who has tested both the vehicles in similar conditions is welcome to argue the point.

Samurai, I do respect the Major's experience. But, I would like to understand why an MM540 handles better than a 70 series in slush. Remember from a traction/performance perspective the only thing that the army spec has over the civilian version is:

1. MRF Sandgrip Tires
2. Slightly higher ground clearance
3. LSDs

I don't have the specs of the 70 series TLC that the Major mentioned. However the only advantage that I can think of that the MM550 could have over the 70 are:

1. Lighter weight
2. Tires maybe. For the picture posted in the thread, they look like All Terrain tires and not off-road Tires?
3. LSD maybe assuming the 70 series didn't come with one?

Other than that, could some one explain to me why an MM540 will handle slush better than a 70 series?

Originally Posted by renamo

Agree with DKG. But whenever you hear our beloved mm540 , or not at all gettable 550, some section of the crowd here wants to declare its the best in the world, but they are hinting it, mentioning it, being very subtle at it. Just dont want to openly declare it, but sure wants to put the thought in all the readers mind. That is very very annoying.

Major has criticized the MM540 for it's short comings on numerous occasions . I don't think he has ever suggested that MM540s are the best off-roaders. He suggested that it handled better than the TLC 70 in slush and I am just trying to understand why?

[Parm]

pakistani army is a major user of TLC 70 series both SWB and LWB. i didnt feel the need to post photos as you can see them on tv news channels.

[4x4addict]

This SWB version did okay in the slush...

YouTube - Toyota Landcruiser 70 series mud pit

[susan3004]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Samurai, I do respect the Major's experience. But, I would like to understand why an MM540 handles better than a 70 series in slush. Remember from a traction/performance perspective the only thing that the army spec has over the civilian version is:

1. MRF Sandgrip Tires
2. Slightly higher ground clearance
3. LSDs

I don't have the specs of the 70 series TLC that the Major mentioned. However the only advantage that I can think of that the MM550 could have over the 70 are:

1. Lighter weight
2. Tires maybe. For the picture posted in the thread, they look like All Terrain tires and not off-road Tires?
3. LSD maybe assuming the 70 series didn't come with one?

Other than that, could some one explain to me why an MM540 will handle slush better than a 70 series?



Major has criticized the MM540 for it's short comings on numerous occasions . I don't think he has ever suggested that MM540s are the best off-roaders. He suggested that it handled better than the TLC 70 in slush and I am just trying to understand why?

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

This SWB version did okay in the slush...

YouTube - Toyota Landcruiser 70 series mud pit

The video explains it all.
1. The tyres on the SWB are MT(extreme) and LBW sported puny rubber on its' rims.
2. The Mahindras' WB allows it to traverse sideways while the TLC LWB could not wriggle out the slush because of this reason.
3. Army Mahindras' are equiped with MRF sandgrips, which gives a satisfactory traction in all terrains.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Other than that, could some one explain to me why an MM540 will handle slush better than a 70 series?

Inexperience, perhaps - the Indian Army is used to M&M vehicles, the LC is new for them? You can have the greatest vehicle, but it is only as good as the driver is. Put Naren in a Formula Maruti and he will beat anyone else on the F1 circuit - till they get used to the FM.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

This SWB version did okay in the slush...

YouTube - Toyota Landcruiser 70 series mud pit

Okay? It did very well, IMHO. Shorter wheelbase means less undercarriage, means less drag when the slush is as deep as depicted in these scenes. Less vehicle weight, too, of course.

You can also find several YouTube episodes where the LC, 70 or 80, did not look so impressive. Of course, there are variables of driver skills etc. and I did not see any 1 on 1 competition with Mahindra over the same obstacles.

[-GT-]

In general, lighter vehicles or vehicles with tyres that have very little friction and/or vehicles that have 'balloon' tyres (for better floatation) are better off in terrains that require momentum rather than traction i.e. sand and slush. As major said, if the lighter (than LC70) army MM540's are equipped with sand tyres they probably have better chance on sand and slush terrains. That is my 2 cents on the subject; I will leave this topic to the 4x4 veterans for more details.

[Parm]

conclusion: its the man behind (the steering) machine that makes the difference.

IAF flying GNATS gave a tough fight to Sabre jets of PAF! so its again...the man handling the machine that makes the difference.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

You can also find several YouTube episodes where the LC, 70 or 80, did not look so impressive. Of course, there are variables of driver skills etc. and I did not see any 1 on 1 competition with Mahindra over the same obstacles.

DD when you find an MM540 that can get out of a mud pit, let me know. I'll take a video and post it on youtube.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

DD when you find an MM540 that can get out of a mud pit, let me know. I'll take a video and post it on Youtube.

You may have to wait awhile. All I am saying is if you look at other film clips on YouTube you will find other episodes where LCs did not do too well. Especially longer wheelbase 80s.

If Toyota were selling the 70 here I would buy it tomorrow instead of a Mahindra. Probably anyway.

Most of my 4x4 experience is in snow. People do not ordinarily think of snow as nearly as substantial as thick slush, mud. But snow over 2 feet deep and certainly over a meter deep will stop most 4x4s almost immediately because of the drag on the under carriage. Tyres, horsepower, lockers etc are not going to be enough. Ground clearance and shorter wheelbase start to gain in importance when the "stuff" starts getting deep. Like it does around here sometimes. In a previous post you asked why Mahindras did better in Africa according to Susan3004. I offer you my humble answer, sir. Undercarriage drag and maybe GC.

[Parm]

all TLC 70 series which are provided to the UN comes with semi offroad tyres and not AT tyres, that explains the grip in the slush. well thats my view point.....now dont come charging on me!

cheers:

[renamo]

Originally Posted by susan3004

I I realised that the quality which they offer outside India is very different from what we get back home.
We have quality niggles for this product in Army also. No wonder everyone votes against it. I refer to the quality of mechanical and electrical parts which are supreme in other vehicles. I would also like to make a mention of the Leaf spings which broke after averaging about 150-200kms in this kind of a terrain.
The views of TLC being better are justified, however, Mahindra did better in a particular terrain.
Given a choice, we all would dump our Mahindras' for other brands because we are sure of the reliability factors.

Thank you major for your honest opinion. @4x4addict, I have highest regards for Major's contribution as well as his opinions on this subject. I was reffering to many others who try to make up mahindra 4x4 for what it is not.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by renamo

Thank you major for your honest opinion. @4x4addict, I have highest regards for Major's contribution as well as his opinions on this subject. I was reffering to many others who try to make up mahindra 4x4 for what it is not.

Many? If there are many it should not be hard for you to name ONE and quote the passage.

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Originally Posted by DirtyDan
You can also find several YouTube episodes where the LC, 70 or 80, did not look so impressive. Of course, there are variables of driver skills etc. and I did not see any 1 on 1 competition with Mahindra over the same obstacles.
DD when you find an MM540 that can get out of a mud pit, let me know. I'll take a video and post it on Youtube

I should have been more careful with my words. What I meant is that I just do not see YouTube clips as being that much of an indicator of anything. The fact that a shorter wheelbase Toyota got out of that hole looks impressive but I really do not know how impressive it was.
Maybe that hole was mostly water in which case most vehicles would make it, I do not know. In any case the clip does not compare vehicles in the way the U.N. mission did. That is all I was saying.

It would be more indicative if the clip showed more vehicles making the attempt. Please do not parley this into a fanatic endorsement of MM or anything else except maybe an endorsement for more objective tests.