[Desmosedici]

Originally Posted by cool_dube

i) LHS ORVM - I am stumped by the fact that the Gypsy does not come with LHS ORVM. But it is what it is! So, will have to procure one. In all probability, will end up getting a pair of Omni ORVMs.

That is all I am planning to get done for now. Anything else that I am missing?

Cheers...

Please use Bolero Mirrors. Way better than Omni ones.

And it would be great if you can mount it a bit ahead of the normal position. It would increase your field of vision as compared to the stock position.

Cheers,
Raj...

[cool_dube]

Thanks for your valuable inputs, Sawyer.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

I think this has the potential to do more harm than good by turning into moisture traps in areas and pockets where it inevitably degrades over time

Sounds interesting but in conflict with the basic philosophy of anti-rust coating. I have only seen positive results so far. Let me think over this a bit more.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

I use the OE covers that are very hard wearing

This seems to make sense. In fact, I sort of like the OE covers, both in terms of looks and function.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

I have a Sony HU with two front speakers which still works

I presume the HU fits under the dash. Any extra fitment required? Also, have you got the speakers fitted in the slots near the footwells or elsewhere?

Originally Posted by Sawyer

If you are changing headlamps - I was told here that the reflector material cannot handle heat from high wattage lamps without turning brown, so you want to look out for that. If you are willing to drill holes for a ORVM, why not for this?! Extra light at night is almost a must.

I have been using Philips Xtreme Vision 60/55W on my Tata Safari and they give me brighter light despite regular wattage. Will try that as the first option, before deciding to up-shift. I might also go in for an off-road bumper, with a provision to hold fog lamps. Let's see.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

As to mats, I have some carried forward tough rubber mats in front that were also cheap

I'd probably stick to 3M nomad mats here, given that I do not intend to use the car for extreme off-road or hauling duties. In fact, will be used as a family car to an extent.

Originally Posted by Desmosedici

Please use Bolero Mirrors. Way better than Omni ones

Thanks Raj. The rationale behind going with Omni mirrors was to avoid drilling extra holes. Will check and compare.

[shankar.balan]

Can anyone who has driven both vehicles please share views on the performance, torque, BHP and general behaviour on and off road, of the Gypsy King 1.3 Carb engine and the Gypsy King 1.3 Mpfi?

[Vikram Arya]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Can anyone who has driven both vehicles please share views on the performance, torque, BHP and general behaviour on and off road, of the Gypsy King 1.3 Carb engine and the Gypsy King 1.3 Mpfi?

The Carb version was powered by the G13BA single overhead cam 8 valve engine that puts out 60bhp @5,500 rpm and 80 to 95 Nm (not sure about exact figure) of torque @3,500 rpm. This engine would idle between 800-900 rpm. The compression ratio was 9.5:1.

The MPFI version has the G13BB 16 valve engine that puts out 80BHP at 6,000 rpm & 103 NM of torque at 4,500 rpm. The MPFI version received the booster brakes that were absent in the carb version. The compression ratio of the fuel injected engine is 9:1 thus this engine is slightly more capable of withstanding lower octane/lower quality gasoline as compared to the carbureted engine.

As carbureted version is a 16 valve engine and breathes much better I would say the fuel efficiency of the fuel injected version will be much better. MPFI engine would also be a better bet from emissions stand point.

As can be observed the peak torque in the carb version comes in at 3,500 rpm which is relatively lower than that of the MPFI version thereby in city traffic etc. you would find the carb version slightly more tractable however from the long term ownership perspective there are several other factors that weigh in favor of the MPFI version especially from maintenance standpoint.

For folks living in colder/higher altitude geographies there are issues of cold start & thinner air that more often than not the carbureted engines struggle with. The carb version also has to contend with old style distributor that sometimes can be finicky though in all fairness I would let people who own the carb version speak on this issue. Then of course there is the issue of frequent carburetor tuning that is something you do not need to bother about in the MPFI engine.

Mechanically speaking I don’t think there was any other difference between the two versions.

In off road situations there is a chance that carb version can potentially stall as the float position of carburetor can impact its ability to function properly on very steep inclines/angles.

An important caveat; I drove the carbureted version almost 15 years ago so I would let the current owners weigh in on these aspects as they are living with the vehicle on an everyday basis.

Having driven both carb (albeit for a short term) and fuel injected avatars, my money would be on fuel injected engine if you can lay your hands on a well maintained vehicle if not opting to buy a new one. Though I must add that you should get a new one while you still can….

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Vikram Arya

Having driven both carb (albeit for a short term) and fuel injected avatars my money would be on fuel injected engine if you can lay your hands on a well maintained vehicle if not opting to buy a new one. Though I must add that you should get a new one while you still can….

Thanks for the detailed reply Vikram. I can clearly understand the essential differences now and am getting a better perspective.

Indeed, just for fun I went to another Maruti Dealer yesterday on my way home.
That chap was the Soul of Assurance itself.

I think he realised that mine was a pretty serious query.

So he mentioned that he would be able to pull a Soft Top White out of the Hat in 45 Days time, give or take 5-10 days here and there. And a Hard Top White in 3 months time.

Having been lucky enough to buy and own mostly brand new vehicles at least over the last 12 odd years, even my inclination is towards a brand new Gypsy. However, the present pricing of 7.8 ish to 8.1 ish lacs is a fair dinkum sort of ~expensive ish value for basically what is after all a jumble of metal, rubber and FRP, with zero modern equipment in it. Saying that of course, one goes to buy a Gyp only with one's eyes wide open.

So I am also evaluating one Carb Gypsy and one MPFi Gypsy - both privately owned by passionate owners but located in two different corners of India. And being me, Im also toying with Brand New.

I intend to test drive, see, spend time and make a decision with a decent amount of thought put into it. I don't want to leap into the void without building enough of a "safety net". Because this is only to indulge my hobby and interest - I do not need a Gypsy. I just want one to relive my heydays before I get too old and cranky to enjoy the simplicity of a mechanical motor which is as uncomplicated as can be...

[Sawyer]

In the early days of WW2, German fighter aircraft had a huge advantage over the British ones, only the former having fuel injection. They could get out of any troubled situations by going into an inverted power dive at will where the British could not follow under engine power; the carburettor could not deliver fuel in that mode.

I am not sure how much of an analogy that is to a Gypsy off road, but in every other aspect, MPFI rules for sure. Even braking the old Gypsies was a task.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

In the early days of WW2, German fighter aircraft had a huge advantage over the British ones, only the former having fuel injection. They could get out of any troubled situations by going into an inverted power dive at will where the British could not follow under engine power; the carburettor could not deliver fuel in that mode.

I am not sure how much of an analogy that is to a Gypsy off road, but in every other aspect, MPFI rules for sure. Even braking the old Gypsies was a task.

I agree that the older Gypsy's braking wasn't all that great.
My old 970CC MG410 Softtop and MG410W Hardtop were cases in point.
The soft top was not too bad, being so light. But the narrow track was not the most inspiring at normal speeds of 60-70-80kmph especially when driven on roads with large tracts of empty land on either side and being subject to wind buffeting from all sides. It was so light that one sometimes got scared one might get carried away! But being so light, the brakes worked ok though they could have been better.
The hardtop was a somewhat non-aerodynamic block which was only marginally heavier so there was a real fear because of the solid top, of toppling over when buffeted by high winds. But its wider track did help. Driving about at 60-70-80kmph was still manageable because the drum brakes would work furiously and bring the vehicle to a stop over some distance.

But go past the 100kmph mark and so on, (which was a bit of a task in that old 970cc Gypsy when loaded with 4 or more people) and one was not very sure of being able to brake on time.

While I know lots of Gypsies have been used for rallying and track racing and very successfully too, personally, I like the Gypsy for its lightness, go anywhere and general simplicity and toughness. I would not at all be interested in attempting speed trials in such a vehicle...

[Sawyer]

When did the change to discs in front happen? While I agree that the car is unsafe over 100kmph, that is more from a handling point of view. The brakes are as good as they need to be now.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

When did the change to discs in front happen? While I agree that the car is unsafe over 100kmph, that is more from a handling point of view. The brakes are as good as they need to be now.

If I remember right, I think the original Gypsies came with Drum brakes both front and rear. They also had a plain old seat. No Head restraints.

[Vikram Arya]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Having been lucky enough to buy and own mostly brand new vehicles at least over the last 12 odd years, even my inclination is towards a brand new Gypsy. However, the present pricing of 7.8 ish to 8.1 ish lacs is a fair dinkum sort of ~expensive ish value for basically what is after all a jumble of metal, rubber and FRP, with zero modern equipment in it. ...
So I am also evaluating one Carb Gypsy and one MPFi Gypsy - both privately owned by passionate owners but located in two different corners of India. And being me, Im also toying with Brand New.

I intend to test drive, see, spend time and make a decision with a decent amount of thought put into it. I don't want to leap into the void without building enough of a "safety net". Because this is only to indulge my hobby and interest - I do not need a Gypsy. I just want one to relive my heydays before I get too old and cranky to enjoy the simplicity of a mechanical motor which is as uncomplicated as can be...

I went through almost the process probably less rationally though..

My father was critical of my decision in light of the fact that I am not able to spend more than 3 weeks in a year in India & investing such an amount of money for that duration did not make sense but as I mentioned in one of earlier posts I wanted to own one before it is discontinued as it was a college dream having grown up around these in Shimla/Dehradun in late 80s/early 90s. Nine months down the line the car has less than 800 kms on the clock but I’ll be back in December so…

Every night I go to sleep thinking when will I get to drive my baby; my wife is getting tired with these constant tales of where will I drive to in my Gypsy when I go back or how will I dress her up or this continuous stream of deliveries from Amazon of some trinket or the other for the Gypsy.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

I agree that the older Gypsy's braking wasn't all that great.

My old 970CC MG410 Softtop and MG410W Hardtop were cases in point.
The soft top was not too bad, being so light. But the narrow track was not the most inspiring at normal speeds of 60-70-80kmph especially when driven on roads with large tracts of empty land on either side and being subject to wind buffeting from all sides. It was so light that one sometimes got scared one might get carried away! But being so light, the brakes worked ok though they could have been better....

But go past the 100kmph mark and so on, (which was a bit of a task in that old 970cc Gypsy when loaded with 4 or more people) and one was not very sure of being able to brake on time.

While I know lots of Gypsies have been used for rallying and track racing and very successfully too, personally, I like the Gypsy for its lightness, go anywhere and general simplicity and toughness. I would not at all be interested in attempting speed trials in such a vehicle...

On the subject of safe speed; I took it for a spin back in January couple of hundred kilometers from home into the higher reaches; the roads of course were less than perfect and everyone including the i10s were overtaking me; I realised that Gypsy is best enjoyed when driven at a sedate pace. The drive was very involving with continuous steering corrections, changing gears, sometimes just for the heck of it.

With my driving instincts having become almost numb with North American driving style where we drive with cruise control engaged even on intercity highways, driving Gypsy was like breathing again in fresh mountain air having spent a long time inside air conditioned rooms. I would actually say that it had almost a therapeutic effect on me. I think it was one of the old Gypsy commercials, “There is a Gypsy in everyone”, how so very true.

As for braking the less said the better but then again maybe I shouldn’t have expected to brake it as a modern sedan with discs all around.

My best wishes for your search for the perfect Gypsy, hopefully you’ll find it soon.

With Wrangler having been launched though at a ridiculous pricing, talk of a India specific platform from FCA and maybe with Jimny on the way in 2018 there will be newer/better 4X4 options in the future but for some of us Gypsy will always remain the King..

[shankar.balan]

Vikram. That is true. Everyone, but Everyone indeed, is calling me names and consider me a complete idiot. Also none of them endorses this "madness" that has come over me.
Specifically I have a first class Yeti which Im unable to drive for more than 500-700 kms a month - mostly Office-Home-GolfCourse on weekends-Home. I have a pretty busy travel schedule these days.
I will probably (if I buy a Gypsy), use it once a week for Office. Maybe take it every week for Golf. Sometimes go out here and there to the nearby hills or grasslands. Maybe give my Dogs a treat by taking them out in it now and then. But predominantly it is going to be MY vehicle. Even my wife, I am 1000% sure, will CRIB like the blazes at getting in and out and at its bumpy ride. I am the only driver at home. In case I buy the Gypsy, then if my parents visit, then my Father just MIGHT drive the Gypsy for old times sake, once in a while.
But this is just for me to live my dream again before I grow too old lazy decrepit and lose all my zest and initiative for adventure. Thats why Im looking for a Gypsy in a budget and specifically tending towards MPFi.

If it happens, it happens.

If not, I just MAY consider a new one - that will be at great duress in the house - of that I am sure.

But then, what the hell. I am 45 years old. I WANT to live the way I want to live.. thats all and thats flat!

Let me see - common sense may prevail but I don't know at this moment.

[cool_dube]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

When did the change to discs in front happen?

With the introduction of Gypsy King (1.3 lit carb) in year 1996 AFAIK

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

If I remember right, I think the original Gypsies came with Drum brakes both front and rear. They also had a plain old seat. No Head restraints.

Correct! All this changed with the Gypsy King in 1996.

Originally Posted by Vikram Arya

I went through almost the process probably less rationally though..

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

I will probably (if I buy a Gypsy), use it once a week for Office. Maybe take it every week for Golf. Sometimes go out here and there to the nearby hills or grasslands. Maybe give my Dogs a treat by taking them out in it now and then.

I went through the same grind last year and with every passing month, my desperation and impatience intensified. After looking about for a good conditioned used Gypsy for over 6 months, I decided to book a new one. Just as I was about to do so, I chanced upon this 1.3 lit King carb in Pune (which I bought but eventually sold after 8 months in lieu of a new one), which was gem of a specimen. I picked up a used one since I intended to drive it occasionally, i.e. once a week or so. But when I started driving it, I enjoyed it so much (a respite from the run of the mill modern cars) that I ended up using it as a my daily commute to work. This was the only reason I disposed off the carb and booked a new one. I heard interesting feedback from all quarters but thankfully none of them was from people who mattered!

Shankar - do not fret, my friend. Unlike James Bond, you live only once So go ahead and live your dream

[shankar.balan]

What a lovely Blue Gyp. How very well kept it is. Beautiful body line. Nothing at all to worry...

I must commend the owner(s) for their passion.

What a responsive and raw grumbly throttle. The carb 1.3 gyp is extremely tractable in heavy traffic. Chugs along nicely in 1-2 gear. No need to ride the clutch.

What a light and sensitive clutch! Fantastic clicky gear box too, just like I remember the Gypsy best.

The only thing stopping me is my preference for a hardtop and the newer tech of an MPFi and power assisted brakes in today's daily city drive lunacy...

Thank you Mr cool_dube for taking the time and trouble.

[Sawyer]

Now that the subject comes up, I recall my first drive of a non boosted brake Gypsy and thinking that this is hard work. Compared to that, no power steering is a minor thing that fades as soon as the car is above parking speeds.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Now that the subject comes up, I recall my first drive of a non boosted brake Gypsy and thinking that this is hard work. Compared to that, no power steering is a minor thing that fades as soon as the car is above parking speeds.

Is yours a carb gypsy with normal brakes? Is it a King?

How difficult will it be to live with the Carb in the future?

The main thing is that the Carb 1.3 develops only 60BHP as opposed to the MPFi which is newer tech, develops 80BHP plus has those boosted brakes.