[star_aqua]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

@Staraqua there are also places named as Pullikanam (Idukki District), Mundakkayam, Peerumedu (Kottayam District), Konni, Pamba, Vadasserikkara, Sabarimala (Pathanamthitta District) were majority of the vehicles are CL/Commander and not even the MM540s. Why do you think this difference exists? Why didn't the MM540/550s sell similar to the CL/Commanders during the 90's when the 540s were still under production? FYI Karnataka is not the ONLY place where Jeeps are bread and butter for them, Kerala still stands among the most prominent places were these humble vehicle continues to sell (if you or any of your friends have traveled to these places you will understand what I am speaking, may be Jeep Captain/ Mallu forum members can add/justify this). Please note that I have mentioned only the Eastern/Travancore part of Kerala, the list is very long).
There is also a place called as Jhunjhunu in Rajasthan were you will find plenty of these Jeeps (may be DB Sir can add on).

Spike, Since you are from kerala, you should be knowing why the Commanders were sold more than 540s. CJs or CLs or Commanders(doorless creatures) are used for commercial purpose as TAXIs for commuting people from one place to another where roads were bad. or even on good road. Can you tell me CJs were cheap or MM540s were cheap? MM540s were used by estate owners and as a private vehicle since it had doors and windows. So spike, you have then seen plenty of jeeps on the road side which were actually doing taxi job. I have been to kerala in my JEEP.
But this JEEP thing you will really understand only when you own and maintain it for few days. Nope, few days is not really enough. One need atleast few months. Am also an automotive engineer, but I learnt more when i owned it. It has helped me in my professional life. Now I own few trucks(i don't remember the license plates) though my name is not in the RC book as owner but as Proxy . Since you are here as a JEEP enthusiast(am i correct?), hope you will find and own a JEEP soon.

[Jaggu]

Small correction star, CJ and CL's also were purchased as private vehicles in great numbers till recently, esp in the idukki belt as well as in the malabar belt. Few of my close friends still own them as their primary vehicles, though they have better sedans parked in the garage, which is mainly weekend/family vehicles. Yes MM's were owned by the higher social strata of estate owners mostly.

[star_aqua]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Small correction star, CJ and CL's also were purchased as private vehicles in great numbers till recently, esp in the idukki belt as well as in the malabar belt. Few of my close friends still own them as their primary vehicles, though they have better sedans parked in the garage, which is mainly weekend/family vehicles. Yes MM's were owned by the higher social strata of estate owners mostly.

Yeah Jaggu, you mean CL550s right? MM540 was stopped long back and they continued with CLs as they were in more demand because of it commercial use. So that was the only option left for even estate owners if they wanted a new JEEP. When you offered a 540 and CJ500 and if both serving same purpose but at different cost, one shall go for cheaper one compromising with the doors and if they never get onto highways.

Originally Posted by DKG

May I suggest a solution to this impasse?

Buy a Thar and use it stock for three years enjoying the car as a regular machine with some offroad thrown in.

Then when the new car novelty has worn off and you know it won't fetch you half of what you have paid for it then tear out the front IFS, steering box and rear diff and install leaf suspension with rigid axle, FFRA and the steering box of choice.

Now if you cannot bring yourself to paying 7 lacs for a new Thar wait for four years and you will have used Thars for 2.5-3 lacs. Have fun modifying those.

If you can't wait buy a Thar brand new and immediately do the mods

Guys you have the options, its not all that bad.

Still the option of restoring/modifying ex-army mm550s to one's own needs and requirments and money in one's pocket, will be a better option than to spend 7 Lakhs on a THAR!

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by star_aqua

But this JEEP thing you will really understand only when you own and maintain it for few days. Nope, few days is not really enough. One need atleast few months.

Staraqua, this I have to agree, there is no substitute to the feeling of owning a Jeep.

Spike

[Jaggu]

Doors what doors??? They just put a twig like bar on the side to make a door Actually they even make doors with solid padding on top to make it arm rest. Though the taxi jeep drivers will have his rears half jutting out and driving position at an angle to the steering lol

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by ex670c

...this was the second instance where M&M Showed the JEEPing world (DANA44s) how it is done...
PS - Can anyone quote the first Instance.

Just a wild guess...the FC Van ?

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi Spike

Why isn't the SFRA on the THAR being changed to FFRA? (Y/N)
1) BOM
2) ARAI
3) CMVR

Can I safely say, that the M&M Thar is a Scorpio with a MM540 body shell, designed, by people who never owned a MM540 or a NGCS MM550XD or a JEEP(Bought it off-the shelf/second hand) who also claim they are avid off-roaders/jeepers.

But I guess the above is the same with most companies......the designing bit.

So this Thar is not for the JEEPers, designed by JEEPers, from the JEEPers.

It is a typical M&M Product, as they have no competition in the 4wd segment, they will give what they want.

Regards,

Arka

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

@Arka you guys will get what you want (up to some extent, not fully though), wait for some time

Spike

Originally Posted by Kandisa

The other thread on COE does hint something in this direction. Probably 4wd versions of the Xylo & then Storm may be the next sets of offerings and may be some more surprises thereafter. But then considering the time going to be taken for Thar to finally hit the Indian showrooms, you really need patience to expect the subsequent 'goodies'.

Is the Thar going to be "it", that's all she wrote, the fat lady has sung, THE END, turn out the lights the party is over?

Or, with B.D. taking up his new duties (and getting a substantial raise) are we going to see a jeep for sale to the public that is more of an off-roader than the Thar? By this I mean FFRA, solid front axle, lockers etc.

[DKG]

Guys guys this bit about owning Jeeps is absurd. You all need to realise that not a single employee of the Ferrari factory has ever owned a Ferrari. Forget that, most have never driven one. The factory test drivers of both Ferrari and Lamborghini don't own the cars they drive. But possibly there is no one on the planet who understand those cars as intimately as these chaps do. So please don't suggest that people at M&M can't do an ace job of designing a offroader just because they have never owned the car. What has ownership got to do with all this? The R&D in any company has to continously run vehicles all the time to test for reliability and performance matters. Guys this is their job. To keep testing vehicles. How can you possibly believe that just because you and I own a Jeep we are more qualified to decide what's appropriate and what's not.

The foundation of a R&D dept in any auto company is to test vehicles to levels which will never be experienced by the average driver and ensure the product meets certain performance criteria. Its a tough and gruelling task. To say that any of us know cars more intimately than the R&D guys who helped design it is too absurd an assertion. I remember the R&D in Packard Motor Car Company would load sand bags onto the roof of a Packard, prop one wheel onto a ramp so the car experiences maximum torsional twist and still check if doors can open and close. Which Packard owner would do this to his car? Another wild test they did on Packards was to run a car on railway tracks with the track sleepers hammering away at the suspension. They would install a light at the hub cap level and one at the B pillar to test if the suspension absorbed shocks enabling the upper light to remain a flat horizontal line, meaning the passengers would never feel the bumps. What are the chances those engineers owned the Packard? Nil. See the kind of hammering a Ferrari goes through. They bust engines on the Fiorano test track to see the limits to which the car can handle

I still say FFRA and solid axle can wait. With SFRA most Wranglers do crazy stuff. Hummers with IFS climb walls and rocks. Its not as bad as you guys make it out to be. Let the Thar get launched, try it out and then decide whether it needs to be written off. Infact I would love to see M&M offer an extreme offroad package option where a customer can order the car with these if he desires to. Bulk of Thar owners wouldn't know what it is all about anyway.

No one is denying that a solid axle setup has an advantage over IFS in extreme offroad but there are other relevant tradeoffs that make IFS the overall clear choice. FFRA may be overkill for the kind of offroading 90% of prospective Thar owners will do.

With the exception of a few enthusiasts most would never miss the FFRA or the solid axles as they have neither ever broken an axle to desire an FFRA or been stuck in situations when difflocks were the only saving grace.

[star_aqua]

DKG, it looks like Mr. BD & Spike will land up in Hyd with the THAR very soon(may be next week?). I hope you will test drive it for sure. Will look forward for your report. If you are allowed to test it offroad, what confidence in you makes you are eligible to test it? definitely its your ownership of your CJ3B.
Please dont compare with ferraris, aeroplanes or ships which are not affordable to anyone. in such cases we all just do our jobs without passion.

not every employee is required to own one. if i am asked to design or upgrade a new M800, i always think of my own experience with it. What i am missing in it and what would i need in it based on my previous experience with it. If i am more passionate about it, i shall maintain its character while i design. Just an example.

[MileCruncher]

Originally Posted by star_aqua

DKG, it looks like Mr. BD & Spike will land up in Hyd with the THAR very soon(may be next week?). I hope you will test drive it for sure. Will look forward for your report. If you are allowed to test it offroad, what confidence in you makes you are eligible to test it? definitely its your ownership of your CJ3B.

I also intend to TD it even though I don't own a 4X4. Going by your logic, I shouldn't be eligible to do that as I have never lived with a Jeep.

I agree with DKG, TSK & Samurai's P.O.V that a manufacturer has to consider much wider base of market than just a bunch of off-roaders while designing their vehicle. I give credit to BD & Spike to actually being here on the forum and including us in the designing/ Spec formulation process for the Thar within whatever they are allowed at. I don't think any other manufacturer in India does that. So let us give credit where is due rather than just casting aspersions on someone.

This is a free country, you don't like it, you don't buy it. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.

BD sir, eagerly awaiting the arrival of Thar here in Hyd and setting my hands on it.

Cheers

[star_aqua]

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

I also intend to TD it even though I don't own a 4X4. Going by your logic, I shouldn't be eligible to do that as I have never lived with a Jeep.

I agree with DKG, TSK & Samurai's P.O.V that a manufacturer has to consider much wider base of market than just a bunch of off-roaders while designing their vehicle. I give credit to BD & Spike to actually being here on the forum and including us in the designing/ Spec formulation process for the Thar within whatever they are allowed at. I don't think any other manufacturer in India does that. So let us give credit where is due rather than just casting aspersions on someone.

This is a free country, you don't like it, you don't buy it. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.

BD sir, eagerly awaiting the arrival of Thar here in Hyd and setting my hands on it.

Cheers

Every one here gives credit to Mr. BD & Spike for being here. No question about it.
As per you they had to consider the wider base of market, then the wishlist should have been under generic topic so that others also would have been participated in designing so that wider base market requirements would have been covered. Why was it posted in 4x4 section to collect the requirements of only off-roaders? This is what is leading to all these posts..

[MileCruncher]

Originally Posted by star_aqua

Every one here gives credit to Mr. BD & Spike for being here. No question about it.
As per you they had to consider the wider base of market, then the wishlist should have been under generic topic so that others also would have been participated in designing so that wider base market requirements would have been covered. Why was it posted in 4x4 section to collect the requirements of only off-roaders? This is what is leading to all these posts..

Saar, opinions and suggestions are taken from experts and not generalists. Thats why the wishlist was in the 4x4 section and not in the general forum.

Plus you as an automobile engineer would also appreciate that making a vehicle has both technical as well as an economic aspect to it and one cannot overlook either of them. Rather a fine balance between the two needs to be reached to make it both desirable for the market as well as profitable for the manufacturer.

The way I see it is that THAR is going to be a stepping stone for a lot of newbie off-roaders (including me) who will learn the tricks of the trade on this before graduating to some serious off-roaders like the MM550/CJ3B etc. I see a good scope for co-existence of both the groups (newbie & matured).

[headers]

Originally Posted by star_aqua

Why was it posted in 4x4 section to collect the requirements of only off-roaders? This is what is leading to all these posts..

I agree!

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

I agree with DKG, TSK & Samurai's P.O.V that a manufacturer has to consider much wider base of market than just a bunch of off-roaders while designing their vehicle.

Anirudha, the manufacturer should look at the vehicle from all aspects..not just a bunch of lunatic offroaders, I agree, BUT

If the target market is "farm only" or "lifestyle" vehicle, then it leaves a lot to be desired.

Though I appreciate BD and SA for being here and reading these we post, it would be better if the team concerned understand the implications of the negatives mentioned and correct the same.


Coming to the numbers game - How many a month do you think the THAR is going to sell? 10K, 5K, 2K, 1K ???

[Ashley Nair]

[quote]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

@Staraqua there are also places named as Pullikanam (Idukki District), Mundakkayam, Peerumedu (Kottayam District), Konni, Pamba, Vadasserikkara, Sabarimala (Pathanamthitta District) were majority of the vehicles are CL/Commander and not even the MM540s. Why do you think this difference exists? Why didn't the MM540/550s sell similar to the CL/Commanders during the 90's when the 540s were still under production? FYI Karnataka is not the ONLY place where Jeeps are bread and butter for them, Kerala still stands among the most prominent places were these humble vehicle continues to sell (if you or any of your friends have traveled to these places you will understand what I am speaking, may be Jeep Captain/ Mallu forum members can add/justify this). Please note that I have mentioned only the Eastern/Travancore part of Kerala, the list is very long).


Spike

I am from Kerala and I second spike's statement. 540/550s while in production were never sold in Kerala in great numbers, except to Govt. departments.In high ranges of kerala( peerumedu, Kuttikkanam, Kimaly, Nedungandam, kattappana and a lot more) and in Vayanadu,taxis meant only JEEPS,JEEPS and nothing else, the TRAX included( But now the scenario is slowly changing, thanks to Mahindra's neglect on the true Jeep).Taxi operators stood aloof from 540s alleging greater fuel consumption, less torquey engine when compared to the CJs and since doors permitted less passengers. Even now there is marked preference in Kerala taxi operators for the DI engine over any other engiine of M&M

It may be of some interest that my unclebought a dilapidated CJ3B in running condition in 1988 at a price of RS.11,500/- and the price was then considered to be on the higherside! No one knew the worth of the 3B then and simply called it a "cut-chassis" Jeep which gulps gallons of petrol. And the most interesting part is that he wound a metal pipe over the manifold and after starting the engine with petrol, when the engine warmed up, he would open a tap and kerosene( petrol supply will be turned off simultaneously) running through the metal pipe will get heated and the engine used to run on kerosene, though belching out black smoke.Though the Jeep ran for 2 years like this, no noticeable adverse effect was seen on the engine.