[ex670c]

Hello DB Sir and Spike,

You guys have seen what M&M Scopio's & M&M NGCS 550 can do on the trail.

My observations on the the THAR.

1) I think the Chassis is a mix of the NGCS 550XD and Scorpio Front.

2) FFRA is a must. Weakest Link

3) Steering System similar to the early Bolero. Weakest Link

4) Keep the Under Chassis Flushed, the GC is measured at the lowest point on the chassis, e.g bottom of the muffler will be 5-6" 100-120mm

5) Front and Rear D-Hooks i.e Nissan 4W73/Shaktiman/LPTA/ALS type, including a pintle hook.

6) Minimal Dash board

7) Company fitted 4 or 6 point roll-cage all over the Range/Variants e.g JEEP Wranglers

8) Wider Body beds i.e Armada/Bolero under the cab.

9) OEM Tyre options 235/70/16 or 245/75/16 or 235/85/16

10) MLD

If a Scorpio can do this trail, then the THAR Should be able to do it cleaner, meaner and Greener.

But that is only if the manufacturer does a comprehensive job in designing and refining it.

Regards,

Arka

[bantejas]

Dev,

In India, most of the people prefer a car. Take e.g. bangalore. People here would be satisfied with a hatchback rather than a SUV or a sedan for the following reasons:
1. Salaried, married with kids which is born with thousands of problems and hence the requires almost a closed environment (in light humor, please don't take it seriously).
2. Traffic condition.
3. Need of AC in summer time (I can't believe it but AC is required)
4. Not many interested in going out, let alone forget the OTR.
5. Need of a nice ICE.
6. Hardtop

Can this be done on Thar? Yes it can be, but we need to shell out money for the same:

1. AC can be done at a price say 30k
2. Basic ICE: 20k/10K
3. Hard top: ?

In all it is a 8 Lakh vehicle. How many people will buy a thar for their city use? How many people actually go out of the city for long cruises? People would rather buy a hatch back for < 6 lakh and keep invest the 2 lakh in a MF.

You will not use a 8 Lakh (+ say 50k more for off road mods, 8.5L total) for serious off roading too, will you? I liked off roading, but I don't take my safari there (even for soft roading I'd say) because of the costs associated with it in case of a hit. I still don't know if it is a good off roader or not because I don't want to take a chance. My knowledge is minimal on the tech aspects of the car, but I know for one thing that a stock gypsy would be way much better than a stock thar in terms of off roading and as a newbie to off-roading, I'd rather buy a gypsy.

It's a car made for wannabe rich off roaders (in my case, I would have been one of them if I was rich because then I'd think that it'd look good). It won't sell great in india according to me simply because not everyone thinks the way you or I think. Most of them think the other way!

Tejas

[Spitfire]

Why does everyone go on about city use?

What is city use? cocooned in AC with PS and windows rolled up and not a murmur heard from outside? In OTR trails, you wouldnt be using all the above. Its just extra baggage. Cocooned and OTR dont go together. You will need to listen to every bit of sound and maximum visibility is required.

If it was meant for city use, it wouldnt be based on a Jeep. Get the city use thing out of your head. If you want "city use" look else where.

What it does need is minimal long haul driving comfort and whats been provided is decent enough.

[Jaggu]

Add lack of rear doors to the list Tejas This will be a problem even for people like me, if i wish to keep only one vehicle for the family.

EDIT: @spitfire: we are debating to make Thar a better seller, rake in numbers so that it makes business sense to M&M. Hope the debate is clear now.

[Samurai]

Bantejas,

We are talking about an offroad vehicle that can also take family with some comfort to the offroad site. I don't think we need a city vehicle which can offroad, and we are definitely not talking about normal people in this section.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

EDIT: @spitfire: we are debating to make Thar a better seller, rake in numbers so that it makes business sense to M&M. Hope the debate is clear now.

Oh ok. Then we are missing another point. "Car" in India is a status symbol. Where does the THAR stand in there?

If they need to sell more, then target the rural areas with a stripped out version. A "modern", bigger Major.

[bantejas]

samurai-san ,

I do understand that but then this is what basically got me thinking: Dev pointed out to Mr Behram to get a 2wd at the OTR site as the base model which I thought was of no use as the whole purpose of the vehicle at that site was meant for the off ORs (off-roaders).

I as an off roader would require a jeep/gypsy as the cost associated with it would be lesser (this is what I have heard from the ORs).
In india, we (at least I) drive mostly in the 80-90 km/hr band on the highways which Gypsies (comparing them as they are in similar price bands) are capable of doing.
Again, the point which was discussed was to make it popular amongst the mass and the reasons which I quoted above will not make it popular them, maybe/hope that it becomes amongst the ORs, but it's for the time to tell.

Tejas

[vinod_nookala]

My take on Thar-
In its current package it is a great highway performer and a good off roader. I want the same package on a Army MM550 NG chassis and suspension for Great offroadability and good highway performance.

I want thar mechanicals in this vehicle- (i can live with that hard top also). Spike you know it is possible from what i have shown you.

P.s - If you insist on IFS for 2wd useage, then go the Bolero way, IFS for 2wd and solid axle for 4wd. This makes more sense.

[headers]

@ Vinod: Please post pictures of the perch points that are important and make a difference.

[vinod_nookala]

Originally Posted by headers

@ Vinod: Please post pictures of the perch points that are important and make a difference.

Unfortunately i dont have them with me to show the comparison. The perch points of on a MM550 XD army are much lower than regular NGCS ones. The shakles are longer. This increases the height of the vehicle. Hence no chance of fouling anything underneath. We physically saw this. All this was to accomodate that 7.50 -16 tyres with out fouling front fenders.

Nef 2.5 is smaller than Di turbo. When Di turbo can have an solid axle with 4wd then why not Thar?

[Jaggu]

I for one think that changing IFS might not be really a workable idea (rather too late) from the manufacturer's side? Better option would be to improve the suspension travel and GC and offer easy customization offer to move the vulnerable parts away from trouble?

[bantejas]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hello DB Sir and Spike,


10) MLD


Arka

I'm sorry but can someone tell me what MLD is? How is it different than LSD? If someone could tell me the pros and cons too, it will be helpful.

Thanks,
Tejas

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by bantejas

I'm sorry but can someone tell me what MLD is? How is it different than LSD? If someone could tell me the pros and cons too, it will be helpful.

MLD is mother-in-law Differential, totally unforgiving like a standard mother-in-law.

On a serious note, it is Mechanically Locking Differential, same as manual diff locks in Gurkha. Both tyres on the axle will turn at the same speed whether there is traction or not. If you don't know when to use it, you will the break the axle in no time. In that way, it is as unforgiving as you know who.

[simply_sunny001]

Originally Posted by Samurai

MLD is mother-in-law Differential, totally unforgiving like a standard mother-in-law.

we wont miss DD in this thread now, good one sharath

[headers]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

I for one think that changing IFS might not be really a workable idea (rather too late) from the manufacturer's side? Better option would be to improve the suspension travel and GC and offer easy customization offer to move the vulnerable parts away from trouble?

I rather think solid axle coil spring setup would be more appropriate for this vehicle. Saw the vehicle in flesh and was dissappointed .

I belong to a minority world, So here I go with my views about the THAR.

Somethings that impressed me in the Thar was:
1. Simplicity of the doors - but that is not standard OE.
2. Fantastic seats - Again not Standard OE.
3. Decent Tyres - But again not Standard OE

Things that disappointed me:
1. 4wd manual lever in the wrong side - Reason: Prototype
2. Same Instrument console as Bolero Storm - Reason: Standardisation
3. PRICE Unknown : So can we have a guess then

It has to be priced below the Bolero Storm which has more metal content, HVAC and proper doors with CL and PW. but as it has a manually operational 4wd, it could be 20K cheaper than the Storm. So my target costing is under 7L on road.