[married2speed]

Hi Guys

Over the last couple of weeks, i've been browsing the forum silently, looking for some answers before i take the plunge for buying the gypsy.

Need some inputs from you guys to help me finalize

The idea is to participate in the RAID.

The dilemma is
Step 1:
Take a ex-army carb gypsy, restore it to bare basic requirements confining to the adventure category regulations and participate.
Step 2: Plonk in a baleno engine next year, change the GB, flywheel and participate in the Extreme category (T1)next year

or

Buy an ex-army/civillian 1.3 MPFI gypsy and use it for the RAID this year in adventure category this year and using the same engine next year for the extreme category

Looking forward for your suggestions

Cheers!
m2s

[nitrous]

I would go with option #2.

Even option #1 isn't bad, but it better be a king even if its the carb avatar.

[Monkeyboy4u]

Have you participated in the RAID before ? I believe all first timers must participate in the Adventure category first. I would recommend

Buy an ex-army/civillian 1.3 MPFI gypsy and use it for the RAID this year in adventure category this year and using the same engine next year for the extreme category


All the best do keep us posted

[married2speed]

Originally Posted by nitrous

I would go with option #2.

Even option #1 isn't bad, but it better be a king even if its the carb avatar.

@ Nitrous - Thanks for the suggestion. Any particular reason why you are inclined towards for the MPFI.

If it'll be option 1 that i go in for, that would be a 413 King and not a 410.
Hoping to catch in for a 413W from Mayapuri but the problem is that 413W were introduced in the army in the year 2003, which means, I have to wait for another year before they come out in the scrap market.

Originally Posted by Monkeyboy4u

Have you participated in the RAID before ? I believe all first timers must participate in the Adventure category first. I would recommend

Buy an ex-army/civillian 1.3 MPFI gypsy and use it for the RAID this year in adventure category this year and using the same engine next year for the extreme category


All the best do keep us posted

@ Monekyboy4u - I'm aware that all first timers must participate in the adventure category. Hence, the plan for Step 1. Save the money for the MPFI king, get the RAID experience and slowly from there build the gypsy and install that Baleno engine.


At this point of time, i would like to add that the engine would be completely overhauled, overbored, ported and polished along with the other mods, such as FFE,headers etc
So would not a 1.6 overbored engine be more competitive than a stock 1.3 MPFI or for that matter a overbored 1.3

[gotzuk]

Originally Posted by married2speed

The dilemma is
Step 1:
Take a ex-army carb gypsy, restore it to bare basic requirements confining to the adventure category regulations and participate.
Step 2: Plonk in a baleno engine next year, change the GB, flywheel and participate in the Extreme category (T1)next year

or

Buy an ex-army/civillian 1.3 MPFI gypsy and use it for the RAID this year in adventure category this year and using the same engine next year for the extreme category.

The best way to do it would be to find a rally prepared mpfi gypsy and take it on from there. I am sure you are aware of the costs involved with preparing a gypsy for competing. Buying a vehicle already setup for competition would save you time and money.

Originally Posted by married2speed

Hoping to catch in for a 413W from Mayapuri but the problem is that 413W were introduced in the army in the year 2003, which means, I have to wait for another year before they come out in the scrap market.

AFAIK, Mpfi Gypsy was introduced to the army in the year 2000 itself.
In fact, a friend in Gurgaon recently picked up a 2000 Army disposal gypsy and is currently restoring it.

Originally Posted by married2speed

At this point of time, i would like to add that the engine would be completely overhauled, overbored, ported and polished along with the other mods, such as FFE,headers etc
So would not a 1.6 overbored engine be more competitive than a stock 1.3 MPFI or for that matter a overbored 1.3

I am not sure why you are keen on the baleno engine mod.
There isn't a chalk and cheese difference in the 1.3 and 1.6 Gypsy.
Try and get a drive of both versions before taking the dip.

I would suggest entering the stock category (T2) first and then moving on to the open category (T1).

But whichever way you plan to do it, best of luck

Cheers

[married2speed]

gotzuk;1697172]The best way to do it would be to find a rally prepared mpfi gypsy and take it on from there. I am sure you are aware of the costs involved with preparing a gypsy for competing. Buying a vehicle already setup for competition would save you time and money.

Did ponder over the thought buddy but then again, even if i were to pick up one, won't be able to participate in the RAID as first timers are only allowed in the adventure category and to be fair, it's better to learn how to walk first than run.

AFAIK, Mpfi Gypsy was introduced to the army in the year 2000 itself.
In fact, a friend in Gurgaon recently picked up a 2000 Army disposal gypsy and is currently restoring it.

I agree with you. It's The widetrack's which weren't introduced till the year 2003. However, could you mention where is the restoration being done?

I am not sure why you are keen on the baleno engine mod.
There isn't a chalk and cheese difference in the 1.3 and 1.6 Gypsy.
Try and get a drive of both versions before taking the dip.

I would suggest entering the stock category (T2) first and then moving on to the open category (T1).

At this point of time, I'm just confused & not keen. However, the idea is to enter in the adventure category in the 1st year and then for next year move onto the extreme category and build the gypsy from there on.
That is why, the idea of carb engine this year with the baleno engine next year.

But whichever way you plan to do it, best of luck

Cheers

Thanks mate. Appreciate the help

On a generic note, I'd like to add that modifying a Baleno engine would anyways be expensive than modifying a stock MPFI gypsy to suit the RAID conditions so it's not about the Baleno engine nor the $$$ that can be saved per say but overall reliability and which engine one can be punished more and can still withstand the abuse. If someone is suggesting the King engine, all I merely want to know is the reason for it as explained to a noob

The performance mods which are in mind for the T2 category for either Baleno or King engine would be
1. Porting & polishing
2. Overboring to 1.8 (1.6 for King)
3. Stand alone ecu
4. Competition flywheel
5. Competition pulley
6. Throttle body enlargement
7. Suspension set up

The FFE's, filters etc modification would be done by default.

Other list of modifications which I'm still trying to find out if the Gypsy can withstand are
1. Turbo installation
2. CAI
3. Performance clutch
4. Bigger injectors

[gotzuk]

Originally Posted by married2speed

It's The widetrack's which weren't introduced till the year 2003. However, could you mention where is the restoration being done?

All 1.3 litre gypsies, whether carburetted of injected are widetrack. Widetracks have been around for almost two decades now.
The gypsy is currently being done up near IBM office. I can PM you the owners number if you want to see the vehicle.

Originally Posted by married2speed

On a generic note, I'd like to add that modifying a Baleno engine would anyways be expensive than modifying a stock MPFI gypsy to suit the RAID conditions so it's not about the Baleno engine nor the $$$ that can be saved per say but overall reliability and which engine one can be punished more and can still withstand the abuse.

Installing a baleno engine requires modifications to the engine mounting points and gearbox bellhousing. If done properly by someone with experience it should be as reliable as the stock, but at the same time can also prove to be be the Achilles heel. IMO, both engines can be withstand the same amount of abuse without giving up the ghost. Also keep in mind that a baleno engined gypsy would be deemed to be a T1 category competitor, not T2, since the engine has been modified.

Originally Posted by married2speed

The performance mods which are in mind for the T2 category for either Baleno or King engine would be
1. Porting & polishing ..... modifications which I'm still trying to find out if the Gypsy can withstand are
1. Turbo installation
2. CAI
3. Performance clutch
4. Bigger injectors

Have a look at the T2 regulations here http://www.raid-de-himalaya.com/2005a/Xtreme/T2Regs.pdf
You will be surprised how little you can do to your engine.

Cheers

[married2speed]

gotzuk;1697240]All 1.3 litre gypsies, whether carburetted of injected are widetrack. Widetracks have been around for almost two decades now.
The gypsy is currently being done up near IBM office. I can PM you the owners number if you want to see the vehicle.

That would be great if you could PM me the details.

Installing a baleno engine requires modifications to the engine mounting points and gearbox bellhousing. If done properly by someone with experience it should be as reliable as the stock, but at the same time can also prove to be be the Achilles heel. IMO, both engines can be withstand the same amount of abuse without giving up the ghost. Also keep in mind that a baleno engined gypsy would be deemed to be a T1 category competitor, not T2, since the engine has been modified.

Yeah, my bad. The idea is to participate in the T1 category more. T2 is only for formality,although certainly would not be ignorant about it.

So far, from what I've read is that there's a lot of headache involved in housing the baleno engine. However, the extra-ordinary results that have been noticed (Suresh Rana's gypsy) although please do not misinterpret this as me being the next Suresh Rana.
I'm also aware that his gypsy is done at MUL itself so the quality of work would certainly be different but i'm yet to hear about an X factor which would suggest that a baleno engine would not be a good idea.

Have a look at the T2 regulations here http://www.raid-de-himalaya.com/2005a/Xtreme/T2Regs.pdf
You will be surprised how little you can do to your engine.

Like i said, i mixed up. This is what I had in mind with terms to the modifications
http://www.raid-de-himalaya.com/2005a/Xtreme/T1Regs.pdf

However, this is certainly an interesting perspective. The power of the forum has also got me thinking to pick up an MPFI and use that for the raid for the next 2-3 years before considering an engine swap or any modifications. I guess some more point of view, a couple of more sleepless nights and I would have arrived

Cheers

[harjeev]

Originally Posted by married2speed

However, this is certainly an interesting perspective. The power of the forum has also got me thinking to pick up an MPFI and use that for the raid for the next 2-3 years before considering an engine swap or any modifications. I guess some more point of view, a couple of more sleepless nights and I would have arrived

Cheers

I would strongly advise to consider this option!! As many have discovered that restoring a an ex-army vehicle is not a walk in the park or piece of cake and one really needs to be up to the task. The reason a lot of people go in for CJ3B's and MM550's from the scrapyard route is because new ones are not available and picking up a scrap vehicle is the only answer, whereas in Gypsy's we have an alternate route, how long would that route be available is still under a question mark as the 1.3 Gypsy not being EURO IV emission norms compliant, which are coming in force wef 01 April 2010. I think that the same reason why the Baleno was discontinued.
I am speculating here, so please check with your sources!!!

Coming back to the topic Restoration of an Ex-Army vehicle is an extremely detailed and precision work and is never perfect. Its always hit and trial. Further the kind of rallying you are planning on doing, I would strongly advise you to either look for a good civilian IInd hand vehicle or go for the new route as your life will depend on it.
At the same time I am not saying that nothing will go wrong in a IInd hand vehicle or a new vehicle, but still the chances are much less when compared to an ex-army vehicle and the piece of mind is always more!!!
So take your pick!!!

[amanpreet]

Now Harjeev i have a conflict in opinion. I have a 98 model ex army vehicle which is in super running condition. I can lay a bet on if any new jeep or 2nd hand jeep handles that well as off mine.
Yes i have spent alot to get what i wanted but its never impossible. If a jeeps has an intact chassis and bodyline the mechanicals and other aspects can be looked into. Gradually the Gypsy can really be well prepared. To prepare an ex army is really hectic and challenging but nothing is IMPOSSIBLE.

I have participated in Raid many times and i feel a gud MPFI gypsy is a very gud option with a 1300cc engine. While entering into the Adventure trial you cant make any changes, except the rear muffler, air filter is free and a choice of cabin, rollcage and extra fuel tank is allowed.
Now if you plan to do an extreme version next time a 1300 cc can also be a very competitive machinery. You being a fresher i would suggest you to get a feel of what a 1300cc gypsy can do and then upgrade t0 1600cc engine.
This is just a suggestion and rest is your choice.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

[married2speed]

harjeev;1697887 would strongly advise to consider this option!! As many have discovered that restoring a an ex-army vehicle is not a walk in the park or piece of cake and one really needs to be up to the task.

Coming back to the topic Restoration of an Ex-Army vehicle is an extremely detailed and precision work and is never perfect. Its always hit and trial. Further the kind of rallying you are planning on doing, I would strongly advise you to either look for a good civilian IInd hand vehicle or go for the new route as your life will depend on it.

Finally. An opinion from the guy who owns all jeeps - "Har-Jee(p)v"

1 of the reasons, apart from the monetary factor, for picking up a ex-army gypsy is the rumor of getting a stronger chassis. Besides that the same time, the restoration would also mean that I would get a chance to get under the hood and understand the working and dynamics of the gypsy, which considering any other circumstances including the purchase of a new gypsy, would not make it possible. Understanding what your vehicle is all about is the key to at least finish the RAID. Moreover with veterans of restoration such as yourself to rely on, how WRONG could i possibly go with the restoration?

amanpreet;1697996I have participated in Raid many times and i feel a gud MPFI gypsy is a very gud option with a 1300cc engine. While entering into the Adventure trial you cant make any changes, except the rear muffler, air filter is free and a choice of cabin, rollcage and extra fuel tank is allowed.
Now if you plan to do an extreme version next time a 1300 cc can also be a very competitive machinery. You being a fresher i would suggest you to get a feel of what a 1300cc gypsy can do and then upgrade t0 1600cc engine.
This is just a suggestion and rest is your choice.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

Good to see comments from a RAIDER. Aman, buddy, could you pen down more of your experience about the RAID .
Going by your comment, it appears as if that a 1.6 is not a bad choice for the T1.
What I can't understand is, WHY the preference for a 1.3 over a 1.6?

[Sorcererenator]

married2speed, I second Aman here. When i was looking for a MG myself, the only thing i had in mind was a perfect chassis and a good bodyline - i had budgeted for everything else to be changed when it came to mechanicals.

I also wanted a 1.6L engine but ended up with a 1300cc. I guess the only difference is with top speed (we gypsy lovers dont go with kmpl/ avg though if driven conventially, you will get a much better average with a 1600cc engine)

Also, with what i have heard, i learnt that a gypsy engine is more durable, long lasting and can take a lot of punishment compared to a baleno engines - but agian, I am comparatively new in this field and just sharing my experiences as i can imagine the plight you must be in of what to and not to go in for.

Whenever you are in Noida, you are welcome to drop in to see my vhicle to understand the transformation an ex-Army vehicle could undergo. Best of luck with your search.

Cheers,
Abhey

[harjeev]

Originally Posted by amanpreet

Now Harjeev i have a conflict in opinion. I have a 98 model ex army vehicle which is in super running condition. I can lay a bet on if any new jeep or 2nd hand jeep handles that well as off mine.
Yes i have spent alot to get what i wanted but its never impossible. If a jeeps has an intact chassis and bodyline the mechanicals and other aspects can be looked into. Gradually the Gypsy can really be well prepared. To prepare an ex army is really hectic and challenging but nothing is IMPOSSIBLE.

I totally agree with you Aman and I never said that restoring an Ex-Army is impossible! Nothing is impossible in this world. But at the same time restoration of an ex-army 4x4 its not easy as well. You've sumed it there in a couple of words

Originally Posted by amanpreet

Yes i have spent alot to get what i wanted

To prepare an ex army is really hectic and challenging

And I am not just talking about the cost part. The cost is secondary, but a prospective Gypsy owner who wants to go the ex-army way will need to devote quite a bit of time and energy in the rebuild. Plus the story doesn't end here. Once the vehicle is rebuilt then making is road worthy is entirely a different ball game.
The thing is that there's a dearth of good workshops. What we guys need is a workshop which is owned and managed by a person who loves vehicles and is more of an artist. What I mean to say in other words is the owner should love restoration jobs and take pride in giving a wonderful shape to a piece of junk.
In my experience most of the initial associations start on a good note with big promises etc etc but as and when the association progresses the arrangement goes downhill. This has exactly been my experience.

We the prospective customers have to spend just the money, but its the workshop owner who has to devote the time, attention to detail, etc for the vehicle to be and do what its suppose to do and each and every minute detail counts in my opinion.
If any person who has a good setup and is able to sort out this issue he can make a good amount o f money and carve out a niche market for himself!!!

PS: I am just referring to my experiences here, and it is not my intention to pinpoint anyone directly or indirectly in the process.

[Ashish B]

As I am also narrating in my Bushranger thread, I would like to advise you to go in for

1. An MPFI Gypsy (with perfact chassis & bodyline), and
2. Take it straight to MASS station. Get all the basics done there.
3. Next step, take it to any rally expert & upgrade to rally-spec requirements.

As per the info gathered, an ex-amry MPFI is available for 135-1.50L. Cost estimates as given by Motor Craft is 1.5 L for COMPLETE restoration, and rally mods will take another 1L. The vehicle will become very reliable, however, the key to success in Raid (or anywhere else) is to be one with your vehicle! Know her really intimately!! This is required even for a brand-new Gypsy also. That too, requires your understanding.

I agree with Amanpreet. Ex-army vehicles CAN be made perfect, however, they require lots of time and patience (that's another fun). My Bushranger is also improving with every step, and very soon I will also be as confident of her as Amanpreet is.

Cheers!!

ashish

[married2speed]

Ashish B;1698939]

As per the info gathered, an ex-amry MPFI is available for 135-1.50L. Cost estimates as given by Motor Craft is 1.5 L for COMPLETE restoration, and rally mods will take another 1L.
Cheers!!

ashish

This means a total of approx 3-3.5 + 1L for restoration.

There's a 2006 HT model available for 4.5 with 19K km's on it. @ what price would this be a sensible buy?

@ Harjeev- quite agree with you buddy. At first it's all roses. It's once the customer has been plucked, the thorns appear